Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don�t exist
round here.�� When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.

Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.

My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven�t
inspected them just cursory observation). I�ve watched these �bicycles� keep
up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
a few riders wear any for of helmet and I�ve never seen a registration
plate.

Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?

<edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>
> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>
> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
> plate.
>
> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?

No, but it doesn’t matter.

Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
free rein since then.

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>

--
Spike

On 7 May 2024 at 22:18:20 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:

> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>> round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>
>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>
>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>> plate.
>>
>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>
> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>
> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
> free rein since then.
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>

You mean the police still haven't thought of charging them with a relevant
crime?

--
Roger Hayter

On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
><edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>
>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>
>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>> plate.
>>
>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>
> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>
> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
> free rein since then.
>
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>

That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
never in doubt.

He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
stepping into the road without looking.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html

On 07/05/2024 20:12, edward.harrison1@btinternet.com wrote:
> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>
> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>
> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
> plate.
>
> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?

If you search for 'electric bike conversion kit' on eBay, you'll see
that a couple of hundred quid can turn your pushbike into a 30mph
capable 'electric motorbike'. Basically, they're a replacement
motorised wheel with a battery and controls. This seems to be what a
lot of Deliveroo etc riders use.

Of course, Deliveroo aren't in any way responsible, nor are the vendors
of the kit, because that's just capitalism with which we can brook no
interference. After all, you might simply be wanting to use such a bike
only on your own property, maybe to transport the pontiff to mass or
ursids to their sylvan powder-rooms.

Using such a bike is de jure illegal, but de facto no problem unless you
hit someone.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 07/05/2024 20:12, edward.harrison1@btinternet.com wrote:
> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
> plate.
>
> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?

No, they are not. They have either been 'hacked' in that their speed
limiting software has been adjusted/removed, or they are imports from
China which have no speed limits from new. Both are illegal when used in
that manner, as, you rightly say, pedal power must be used for the
assisitance from the electric motor, and it is limited to 15mph.
If the bike is going along with the rider not pedalling (on the
flat/uphill), then it is illegal, as pedal assistance is required to get
the motor working.
The ones without pedals are totally illegal anyway, unless they have
number plates /insurance/licensed rider etc. There are a lot of these
around now. Pretty much all are Chinese imports, so it clearly shows
that we have no controls on what is being imported, and no effective
Police action to seize these vehicles (for that is what they are once
the speed limiter has been removed), they are no longer bicycles.
Oh, and if you see the semi regular 'house fire due to e-bike', it will
most likely be one of those type of bikes, they are shoddily made
originally, with the people who use them not bothering to maintain them,
or ignoring the most basic of safety requirements.

On Tue, 07 May 2024 21:39:46 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

> On 7 May 2024 at 22:18:20 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t
>>> exist round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem
>>> to recall manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered
>>> scooters.
>>>
>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate
>>> have had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles
>>> being used.
>>>
>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe
>>> there is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the
>>> motor provides a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the
>>> delivery electric bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those
>>> rules (no I haven’t inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve
>>> watched these “bicycles” keep up with cars in 30 mph zones for
>>> instance with the pedals at rest. And only a few riders wear any for
>>> of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration plate.
>>>
>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>
>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>
>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider
>> of an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling
>> 10mph over the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be
>> limited to 15.5 mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was
>> ruled that he wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free.
>> E-bike riders have had free rein since then.
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>
> You mean the police still haven't thought of charging them with a
> relevant crime?

Maybe they got confused and thought it was just a complaint ? Turns out
they can't investigate those.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck7l8ey1v33o

quote
She was told that he was a Northamptonshire police officer and because it
was initially treated as a complaint against a police officer rather than
a crime, it was Northamptonshire who first dealt with it.
unquote

Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>
>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>
>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>> plate.
>>>
>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>
>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>
>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>> free rein since then.
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>
> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
> never in doubt.
>
> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
> stepping into the road without looking.
>
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html

That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?

Even Charlie Alliston of the brakeless racing bicycle got banged up for
killing Kim Briggs, although he served his time in a soft YOI.

And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge, which
is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t a motor
vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental gymnastics.

--
Spike

On 8 May 2024 at 11:46:18 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:

> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>>> round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>
>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>>> plate.
>>>>
>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>
>>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>>
>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>> free rein since then.
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>
>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>> never in doubt.
>>
>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>
>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>
> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
> killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
> would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?
>
> Even Charlie Alliston of the brakeless racing bicycle got banged up for
> killing Kim Briggs, although he served his time in a soft YOI.
>
> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge, which
> is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t a motor
> vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental gymnastics.

The finding involved the plain law, and finding according to the law requires
no "gymnastics". If the same charge as Alliston was convicted of was applied
in this case the outcome would presumably have been very different. Charging
him with something which involved a motor vehicle when he didn't have one was
crassly stupid.

--
Roger Hayter

On 2024-05-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>>> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>
>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>>> plate.
>>>>
>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>
>>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>>
>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>> free rein since then.
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>
>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>> never in doubt.
>>
>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>
>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>
> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
> killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
> would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?

But the police didn't just "shrug their shoulders". They investigated
the accident, they launched an appeal to find him, and once they found
him they interviewed him and sent a file to the CPS, who decided to
prosecute him. They did the precise opposite of "NFA the case".

(Also he wasn't doing "30 in a 20".)

> Even Charlie Alliston of the brakeless racing bicycle got banged up for
> killing Kim Briggs, although he served his time in a soft YOI.
>
> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge, which
> is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t a motor
> vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental gymnastics.

I don't know why you think the judge said it wasn't a motor vehicle.
None of the reports I've read, including the one you linked, say that,
and indeed several of them say the exact opposite - that both
prosecution and defence agreed that it *was* a motor vehicle. He was
acquitted because he wasn't careless, not because he wasn't driving.

On 2024-05-08, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
> On 8 May 2024 at 11:46:18 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
>> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge,
>> which is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t
>> a motor vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental
>> gymnastics.
>
> The finding involved the plain law, and finding according to the law
> requires no "gymnastics". If the same charge as Alliston was convicted
> of was applied in this case the outcome would presumably have been
> very different. Charging him with something which involved a motor
> vehicle when he didn't have one was crassly stupid.

As far as I can tell, the difference between the cases doesn't have
anything to do with whether things are motor vehicles or not. The
difference is that Hanlon's control of his vehicle was not "careless"
whereas Alliston's was "wanton and furious" (which is surely a higher
bar).

On 8 May 2024 at 12:07:16 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
wrote:

> On 2024-05-08, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
>> On 8 May 2024 at 11:46:18 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
>>> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge,
>>> which is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t
>>> a motor vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental
>>> gymnastics.
>>
>> The finding involved the plain law, and finding according to the law
>> requires no "gymnastics". If the same charge as Alliston was convicted
>> of was applied in this case the outcome would presumably have been
>> very different. Charging him with something which involved a motor
>> vehicle when he didn't have one was crassly stupid.
>
> As far as I can tell, the difference between the cases doesn't have
> anything to do with whether things are motor vehicles or not. The
> difference is that Hanlon's control of his vehicle was not "careless"
> whereas Alliston's was "wanton and furious" (which is surely a higher
> bar).

You could certainly argue that riding an illegally modified bicycle at 30mph
in a 20mph zone was wanton and furious. For that matter you could argue that
riding a normal bicycle at 30mph in a 20mph road was, although not illegal per
se, wanton and furious depending on the exact circumstances. And the point was
that the charge of careless driving was rejected not because carelessness was
not proved, but simply because he would have had to be riding a motor vehicle
for the charge to apply.

--
Roger Hayter

On 8 May 2024 at 12:02:24 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
wrote:

> On 2024-05-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>>>> round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>>>> plate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>>
>>>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>>>
>>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>>> free rein since then.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>>
>>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>>> never in doubt.
>>>
>>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>>
>>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>>
>> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
>> killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
>> would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?
>
> But the police didn't just "shrug their shoulders". They investigated
> the accident, they launched an appeal to find him, and once they found
> him they interviewed him and sent a file to the CPS, who decided to
> prosecute him. They did the precise opposite of "NFA the case".
>
> (Also he wasn't doing "30 in a 20".)

>From the linked BBC report:

"The court heard Mr Hanlon's modified e-bike was travelling at more than 10mph
over the 20mph speed limit.

snip

--

Roger Hayter

Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
> On 2024-05-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>>>> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>>>> plate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>>
>>>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>>>
>>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>>> free rein since then.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>>
>>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>>> never in doubt.
>>>
>>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>>
>>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>>
>> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
>> killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
>> would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?
>
> But the police didn't just "shrug their shoulders". They investigated
> the accident, they launched an appeal to find him, and once they found
> him they interviewed him and sent a file to the CPS, who decided to
> prosecute him. They did the precise opposite of "NFA the case".
>
> (Also he wasn't doing "30 in a 20".)

It says that in the report in the Independent that you cited above. Perhaps
you might care to re-read it?

>> Even Charlie Alliston of the brakeless racing bicycle got banged up for
>> killing Kim Briggs, although he served his time in a soft YOI.
>>
>> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
>> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge, which
>> is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t a motor
>> vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental gymnastics.
>
> I don't know why you think the judge said it wasn't a motor vehicle.
> None of the reports I've read, including the one you linked, say that,
> and indeed several of them say the exact opposite - that both
> prosecution and defence agreed that it *was* a motor vehicle. He was
> acquitted because he wasn't careless, not because he wasn't driving.

So he was travelling at rather more than the speed limit, on a machine that
was operating outside its legal parameters due to being modified to do so,
and these actions weren’t regarded as careless. No wonder ‘the law’ is seen
as something of a bad joke. Try running that defence as a motor-vehicle
driver, for example.

But it’s clear that we’ve answered the OP’s questions: yes, the bikes are
illegal, but no-one except the relatives of those killed by them gives a
damn about it.

Sakine was killed almost six years ago, and the progress made in changes to
the law since then is exactly zero.

--
Spike

On 2024-05-08, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
> On 8 May 2024 at 12:02:24 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>>>>> round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>>>>> plate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>>>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>>>> free rein since then.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>>>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>>>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>>>> never in doubt.
>>>>
>>>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>>>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>>>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>>>
>>> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20
>>> limit, and killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you
>>> saying the police would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?
>>
>> But the police didn't just "shrug their shoulders". They investigated
>> the accident, they launched an appeal to find him, and once they found
>> him they interviewed him and sent a file to the CPS, who decided to
>> prosecute him. They did the precise opposite of "NFA the case".
>>
>> (Also he wasn't doing "30 in a 20".)
>
> From the linked BBC report:
>
> "The court heard Mr Hanlon's modified e-bike was travelling at more
> than 10mph over the 20mph speed limit.

Journalists tend to omit important details when reporting on court trials.

"The court had heard how Mr Hanlon was travelling around 30mph
but had slowed down before he crashed into the pedestrian who had
suddenly walked into Kingsland High Street."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/thomas-hanlon-ebike-sakine-cihan-dalston-crash-a4376446.html

On 2024-05-08, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
> On 8 May 2024 at 12:07:16 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-08, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
>>> On 8 May 2024 at 11:46:18 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
>>>> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge,
>>>> which is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t
>>>> a motor vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental
>>>> gymnastics.
>>>
>>> The finding involved the plain law, and finding according to the law
>>> requires no "gymnastics". If the same charge as Alliston was convicted
>>> of was applied in this case the outcome would presumably have been
>>> very different. Charging him with something which involved a motor
>>> vehicle when he didn't have one was crassly stupid.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, the difference between the cases doesn't have
>> anything to do with whether things are motor vehicles or not. The
>> difference is that Hanlon's control of his vehicle was not "careless"
>> whereas Alliston's was "wanton and furious" (which is surely a higher
>> bar).
>
> You could certainly argue that riding an illegally modified bicycle at
> 30mph in a 20mph zone was wanton and furious. For that matter you
> could argue that riding a normal bicycle at 30mph in a 20mph road was,
> although not illegal per se, wanton and furious depending on the exact
> circumstances.

You could certainly argue those things, but I'm not sure it would
necessarily get you very far. (But, again, he wasn't doing 30.)

> And the point was that the charge of careless driving was rejected not
> because carelessness was not proved, but simply because he would have
> had to be riding a motor vehicle for the charge to apply.

Why do you think that? All the reports I have read say the exact opposite.

On 2024-05-07, Jon Ribbens wrote:

> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>><edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>
>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>
>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>> plate.
>>>
>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>
>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>
>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>> free rein since then.
>>
>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>
> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
> never in doubt.
>
> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
> stepping into the road without looking.
>
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html

I wonder whether the Mail types who are calling for the public
flogging of this defendant and Charlie Alliston would take the same
view if they had been driving, or whether they would make excuses like
"Well, *technically* the vehicle wasn't road-legal, but the pedestrian
did jump in front of the car."

(I'm not defending either one, just to be clear, merely suspecting
hypocrisy.)

On 2024-05-08, Clive Arthur wrote:

> On 07/05/2024 20:12, edward.harrison1@btinternet.com wrote:
>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>> round here.   When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>
>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>
>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>> plate.
>>
>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>
> If you search for 'electric bike conversion kit' on eBay, you'll see
> that a couple of hundred quid can turn your pushbike into a 30mph
> capable 'electric motorbike'. Basically, they're a replacement
> motorised wheel with a battery and controls. This seems to be what a
> lot of Deliveroo etc riders use.
>
> Of course, Deliveroo aren't in any way responsible,

That's a serious problem, IMO --- they should be, at least to some
extent.

> nor are the vendors of the kit,

I can see that one both ways. For comparison, it's illegal to carry a
kitchen knife on the street (Without Good Reason[TM]) but I don't
think anyone would suggest houseware shops should be held responsible
for stabbings (as long as they comply with the age restrictions).

> because that's just capitalism with which we can brook no
> interference. After all, you might simply be wanting to use such a bike
> only on your own property, maybe to transport the pontiff to mass or
> ursids to their sylvan powder-rooms.
>
> Using such a bike is de jure illegal, but de facto no problem unless you
> hit someone.

Traffic laws are just "administrative rules", haven't you heard?

On 2024-05-08, Roger Hayter wrote:

> On 8 May 2024 at 11:46:18 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>>>> round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>>>> plate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>>
>>>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>>>
>>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>>> free rein since then.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>>
>>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>>> never in doubt.
>>>
>>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>>
>>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>>
>> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
>> killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
>> would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?
>>
>> Even Charlie Alliston of the brakeless racing bicycle got banged up for
>> killing Kim Briggs, although he served his time in a soft YOI.
>>
>> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
>> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge, which
>> is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t a motor
>> vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental gymnastics.
>
> The finding involved the plain law, and finding according to the law requires
> no "gymnastics". If the same charge as Alliston was convicted of was applied
> in this case the outcome would presumably have been very different. Charging
> him with something which involved a motor vehicle when he didn't have one was
> crassly stupid.

Well, the article linked above says:

Mr Hanlon’s bike was classed as a motorbike, rather than an
electrically-assisted pedal cycle, because it could travel quicker
than the legal 15.5mph limit – despite being fitted with a battery
rather than an engine.

although I suspect it's sloppily written and means that his vehicle
had electrical assistance above that speed. (There is no legal limit
on how fast an EAPC can go, just on how fast it can go before the
assistance shuts off.)

On 8 May 2024 at 14:01:21 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:

> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don’t exist
>>>>>> round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven’t
>>>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I’ve watched these “bicycles” keep
>>>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I’ve never seen a registration
>>>>>> plate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, but it doesn’t matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>>>> wasn’t driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>>>> free rein since then.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>>>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>>>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>>>> never in doubt.
>>>>
>>>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>>>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>>>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>>>
>>> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
>>> killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
>>> would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?
>>
>> But the police didn't just "shrug their shoulders". They investigated
>> the accident, they launched an appeal to find him, and once they found
>> him they interviewed him and sent a file to the CPS, who decided to
>> prosecute him. They did the precise opposite of "NFA the case".
>>
>> (Also he wasn't doing "30 in a 20".)
>
> It says that in the report in the Independent that you cited above. Perhaps
> you might care to re-read it?
>
>>> Even Charlie Alliston of the brakeless racing bicycle got banged up for
>>> killing Kim Briggs, although he served his time in a soft YOI.
>>>
>>> And I rather thought ‘causing death by careless driving’, which is what
>>> Sakine Cihan’s killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge, which
>>> is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn’t a motor
>>> vehicle. I’m guessing that finding involved some mental gymnastics.
>>
>> I don't know why you think the judge said it wasn't a motor vehicle.
>> None of the reports I've read, including the one you linked, say that,
>> and indeed several of them say the exact opposite - that both
>> prosecution and defence agreed that it *was* a motor vehicle. He was
>> acquitted because he wasn't careless, not because he wasn't driving.
>
> So he was travelling at rather more than the speed limit, on a machine that
> was operating outside its legal parameters due to being modified to do so,
> and these actions weren’t regarded as careless. No wonder ‘the law’ is seen
> as something of a bad joke. Try running that defence as a motor-vehicle
> driver, for example.
>
> But it’s clear that we’ve answered the OP’s questions: yes, the bikes are
> illegal, but no-one except the relatives of those killed by them gives a
> damn about it.
>
> Sakine was killed almost six years ago, and the progress made in changes to
> the law since then is exactly zero.

Since the bike was already illegal to ride on the road it is a bit unclear
what progress you were expecting.

--
Roger Hayter

On Wed, 08 May 2024 08:01:16 +0100, Alan Lee wrote:

<snip>Both are illegal when used in
> that manner, as, you rightly say, pedal power must be used for the
> assisitance from the electric motor, and it is limited to 15mph.
> If the bike is going along with the rider not pedalling (on the
> flat/uphill), then it is illegal, as pedal assistance is required to get
> the motor working.
<snip>

On this specific point I am unreliably informed that you can get a legal
electric bike certified to use hand throttle only, for another £150 or so.

This should be no more than 250W output from the motor (although I am told
there might be some wiggle room) and not capable of being assisted by the
electric motor above 15.5 mph.

As to the legality, once it was decided not to enforce the ban on electric
scooters it was open season for ignoring any similar laws.

Laws should not be passed if there is not the ability and will to enforce
IMHO.
Of course, enforcement costs money and time.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnv3l8qg.4ab.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
>
> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
> stepping into the road without looking.

Whereas fairly obviously, Hanlon also wasn't looking.

Hanlon was travelling at a speed 33 mph - which is 44 feet per second

His victim we can assume was walking at normal walking pace 3 mph
4,4 feet per second

If its assumed the point of collision was 12 ft into the roadway

2,7 seconds before the collision Hanlon will have been 132 feet way
while his victim will have been stepping off of the pavement.

In the ensuing 2.7 seconds both Hanlon and the victim will have
been moving towards the point of collision. But Hanlon clearly cannot
have been looking or he would have seen the victim at some point
during those 2.7 seconds and avoided the collision.

Simple maths

bb

"Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote in message
news:7540532937.0bc6d179@uninhabited.net...
> On 8 May 2024 at 14:01:21 BST, "Spike" <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-08, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-05-07, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <edward.harrison1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Living in a rural location operations like Deliveroo simply don't exist
>>>>>>> round here. When I first encountered them (in London) I seem to recall
>>>>>>> manual bicycles being used and probably some petrol powered scooters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recent visits to several cities where these delivery companies operate have
>>>>>>> had me seeing a lot of electrically powered two wheel vehicles being used.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My understanding of electric bicycle law is not precise but I believe there
>>>>>>> is a power limit, a speed limit and the requirement that the motor provides
>>>>>>> a boost to the riders effort. The vast majority of the delivery electric
>>>>>>> bicycles I have seen seem to break all of those rules (no I haven't
>>>>>>> inspected them just cursory observation). I've watched these "bicycles" keep
>>>>>>> up with cars in 30 mph zones for instance with the pedals at rest. And only
>>>>>>> a few riders wear any for of helmet and I've never seen a registration
>>>>>>> plate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are these electric bicycles within the requirements of the law?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, but it doesn't matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sakine Cihan, 56, was killed on 28 August 2018 in Dalston by the rider of
>>>>>> an illegally-modified e-bike. He was estimated to be travelling 10mph over
>>>>>> the 20 limit there, although his machine was supposed to be limited to 15.5
>>>>>> mph. He was charged with a motoring offence, but it was ruled that he
>>>>>> wasn't driving a motor vehicle, and so walked free. E-bike riders have had
>>>>>> free rein since then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616>
>>>>>
>>>>> That doesn't appear to be an accurate summary of the case. As far as
>>>>> I can see from the reports, it was not ruled that he wasn't driving a
>>>>> motor vehicle, indeed he admitted this before the trial so it was
>>>>> never in doubt.
>>>>>
>>>>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>>>>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>>>>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/e-bike-cyclist-pedestrian-death-crash-london-dalston-kingsland-road-a9362526.html
>>>>
>>>> That surely is incredible. Imagine a car driver doing 30 in a 20 limit, and
>>>> killing a pedestrian who stepped into the road. Are you saying the police
>>>> would just shrug their shoulders and NFA the case?
>>>
>>> But the police didn't just "shrug their shoulders". They investigated
>>> the accident, they launched an appeal to find him, and once they found
>>> him they interviewed him and sent a file to the CPS, who decided to
>>> prosecute him. They did the precise opposite of "NFA the case".
>>>
>>> (Also he wasn't doing "30 in a 20".)
>>
>> It says that in the report in the Independent that you cited above. Perhaps
>> you might care to re-read it?
>>
>>>> Even Charlie Alliston of the brakeless racing bicycle got banged up for
>>>> killing Kim Briggs, although he served his time in a soft YOI.
>>>>
>>>> And I rather thought 'causing death by careless driving', which is what
>>>> Sakine Cihan's killer was charged with, is in fact a motoring charge, which
>>>> is why he walked when the judge said his illegal machine wasn't a motor
>>>> vehicle. I'm guessing that finding involved some mental gymnastics.
>>>
>>> I don't know why you think the judge said it wasn't a motor vehicle.
>>> None of the reports I've read, including the one you linked, say that,
>>> and indeed several of them say the exact opposite - that both
>>> prosecution and defence agreed that it *was* a motor vehicle. He was
>>> acquitted because he wasn't careless, not because he wasn't driving.
>>
>> So he was travelling at rather more than the speed limit, on a machine that
>> was operating outside its legal parameters due to being modified to do so,
>> and these actions weren't regarded as careless. No wonder 'the law' is seen
>> as something of a bad joke. Try running that defence as a motor-vehicle
>> driver, for example.
>>
>> But it's clear that we've answered the OP's questions: yes, the bikes are
>> illegal, but no-one except the relatives of those killed by them gives a
>> damn about it.
>>
>> Sakine was killed almost six years ago, and the progress made in changes to
>> the law since then is exactly zero.
>
> Since the bike was already illegal to ride on the road it is a bit unclear
> what progress you were expecting.

Some actual enforcement of the law ?

Or along with burglary and cyber crime is this simply another offence which our
police forces are going to admit they are simply powerless to prevent in most
cases ?

bb

On 2024-05-08, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
> "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
> news:slrnv3l8qg.4ab.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>> stepping into the road without looking.
>
> Whereas fairly obviously, Hanlon also wasn't looking.
>
> Hanlon was travelling at a speed 33 mph - which is 44 feet per second
>
> His victim we can assume was walking at normal walking pace 3 mph
> 4,4 feet per second
>
> If its assumed the point of collision was 12 ft into the roadway
>
> 2,7 seconds before the collision Hanlon will have been 132 feet way
> while his victim will have been stepping off of the pavement.
>
> In the ensuing 2.7 seconds both Hanlon and the victim will have
> been moving towards the point of collision. But Hanlon clearly cannot
> have been looking or he would have seen the victim at some point
> during those 2.7 seconds and avoided the collision.
>
> Simple maths

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

On 9 May 2024 at 00:33:13 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
wrote:

> On 2024-05-08, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
>> "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
>> news:slrnv3l8qg.4ab.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
>>> He was accused of causing death by careless driving, but the defence
>>> argued that he wasn't careless and the pedestrian was at fault for
>>> stepping into the road without looking.
>>
>> Whereas fairly obviously, Hanlon also wasn't looking.
>>
>> Hanlon was travelling at a speed 33 mph - which is 44 feet per second
>>
>> His victim we can assume was walking at normal walking pace 3 mph
>> 4,4 feet per second
>>
>> If its assumed the point of collision was 12 ft into the roadway
>>
>> 2,7 seconds before the collision Hanlon will have been 132 feet way
>> while his victim will have been stepping off of the pavement.
>>
>> In the ensuing 2.7 seconds both Hanlon and the victim will have
>> been moving towards the point of collision. But Hanlon clearly cannot
>> have been looking or he would have seen the victim at some point
>> during those 2.7 seconds and avoided the collision.
>>
>> Simple maths
>
> Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

True!! I feel almost inclined to replace the speeds, distances, thinking time
and possible avoiding actions with an accurate account (where they will all be
quite different); but I can't be bothered.

--
Roger Hayter