On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 17:50:57 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/14/2024 11:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 08:56:15 -0500, Cryptoengineer
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/13/2024 10:32 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>>>> In article <uq35b6$22opb$2@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/7/2024 6:33 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>>>>>> Assuming, of course, that the "environmental hysterics"
>>>>>> really care about the environment, and aren't just using
>>>>>> it as a ploy for an entirely other agenda.
>>>>>
>>>>> What 'other agenda' are you proposing?
>>>
>>> Being anti-nuclear makes no sense now that we have
>>> anthropic climate change to worry about. I suspect
>>> that at least some of the Green's anti-nuke stance
>>> is a hangover from before when ACC was a major worry.
>>
>> More likely it stemmed from the Comintern, to try to get nuclear
>> weapons out of Europe so Europe could be conquered.
>>
>> Note that your "at least some" applies here.
>>
>> I have no idea what "ACC" refers to. Bing shows a sports organization
>> and an instution of higher learning, neither of which seem likely.
>
>Anthropic Climate Change, mentioned earlier in the paragraph.

And so it is. It helps if the acronym were given in parentheses after
the term.

Since Bing, when prompted by "anthropic climate change" (with or
without the quotes) produces hits an "anthropogenic climate change"
first and formost, I think Quaddie gets the prize here for actually
knowing the terminology.

>There's a good deal of evidence that the German anti-nuclear
>movement was funded and promoted by Russia, to hook them on
>Russian natural gas.

I was thinking "Soviet Union in the 70s/80s", but, if this has
continued after the Soviet Union was no more, securing a market for
natural gas is certainly plausible.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 14 Feb 2024 22:41:42 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>The bigger problem with outhouses here in Texas is yellow jackets and
>>copperheads. Both seem attracted to the rich, earthy smells. A
>>detailed look above and in the pit is needful before just sitting down.
>
>This is why they are called "pit vipers," yes.

Ah. Humor. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_viper>
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 15:36:41 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/14/2024 4:40 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On 14/02/2024 03:35, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> In article <uqeof0$1ud4r$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G
>>> <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> On 13/02/24 08:35, D wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About 20% of Russian households do not have flush toilets.
>>>>
>>>> 9% of Urban households.
>>>
>>> To be honest, the second fact is far more alarming than the first.  The
>>> county adjacent to mine here in Virginia has something like 200 homes
>>> with outdoor toilets but... living without a flush toilet in a city has
>>> got to be a horror.
>>
>> Some people speak well of the earth closet,
>> but I don't know if Russia has those instead.
>>
>> Also, if the statistic is sourced, and
>> is reasonably current i.e. later than
>> say 1990, I'd also want to know whether
>> /access/ to an indoor toilet counts.
>> Such as in a boarding-house.
>>
>> As worded, I'd expect that /exclusive/
>> access to an /outhouse/ with plumbing
>> counts.  Though now I'm anxious about
>> washing of hands.
>
>I have never seen an outhouse with plumbing in Texas, Montana, Japan,
>Europe, or Alaska.
>
>The bigger problem with outhouses here in Texas is yellow jackets and
>copperheads. Both seem attracted to the rich, earthy smells. A
>detailed look above and in the pit is needful before just sitting down.
>
>I am fairly happy when the outhouse has real toilet paper. Leaves and
>grass really suck.

This is where a habit of always carrying a roll of TP with you comes
in handy.

Except at home, of course, provided you have indoor plumbing and keep
the shelves near the toilet stocked.

Proper Planning Precludes Poor Performance

>My former USMC son reports that camel spiders are a serious problem in
>outhouses in the middle east. The bites are quite serious.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:31:23 -0000 (UTC), Quadibloc
<quadibloc@servername.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 14:39:16 -0800, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>> If there really were that many more men than women then there would be
>> a major push to encourage them to travel in search of foreign brides.
>
>This would assume China is considerably wealthier than it actually
>is on a per capita basis, I would think.

Alternately, China could re-institute a mail-order bride/indentured
servant program. Or try to, anyway.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 17:51:50 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/14/2024 11:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On 14 Feb 2024 14:11:36 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>
>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 14/02/2024 03:39, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>>>>> In article <ewsxN.78098$Sf59.8@fx48.iad>,
>>>>> Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Given the current decade+ and $$$$$$ it takes to build a plant, ....
>>>>>
>>>>> It didn't used to take that long to build a nuclear power
>>>>> plant, and the laws of physics have not changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> What we have once accomplished in the past, we can
>>>>> aspire to do in the future.
>>>>
>>>> I think we don't want to have more
>>>> nuclear power stations built the old way.
>>>>
>>>> And "the old way" probably runs up to about
>>>> last year.
>>>>
>>>> I'm speaking in general, not particularly.
>>>> But there are conspicuous examples of "oops".
>>>
>>> Much of the problem to my mind is that these plants are being designed by
>>> civil engineers.... aero engineers think very differently about risks...
>>
>> Being run by MBAs may not be helping very much either.
>>
>> IIRC, the people actually doing the work at one such plant reported
>> having to mark the really important switches with pull-tabs because
>> the people-in-charge wanted to see nice clean control boards with all
>> switches looking exactly the same.
>
>
>ITYM Beer Taps????

A "beer tap" is a "tap" used for beer. A "tap" is a valve used to get
a fluid out of a barrel. Or maple syrup out of a maple tree.

The "pull-tab" meant here is the "built-in device used to open a
beverage can" Bing brings up. The can can be said to have been
"popped" when opened. The "beverage" could, of course, be beer.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:

>
>The "pull-tab" meant here is the "built-in device used to open a
>beverage can" Bing brings up. The can can be said to have been
>"popped" when opened. The "beverage" could, of course, be beer.

I actually found a spent beer tab at the local county park
yesterday. First one I've seen in decades.

On 2/14/2024 6:03 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 4:46 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 4:48 PM, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/02/24 00:13, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>> On 12/02/2024 19:35, D wrote:
>>>>>> I can add some anecdotal evidence here as well. I met a Ukrainian
>>>>>> refugee in my local bar a couple of months ago and she told me
>>>>>> that in
>>>>>> her home town, after the russians invaded, all the toilets where
>>>>>> missing from the houses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The russian soldiers removed all of them, loaded on trucks and sent
>>>>>> back to their home villages in russia.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm shocked by the loo-ting.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> The reason why about 20% of Russian households do not have flush
>>>> toilets
>>>> is that villages do not have a common sewerage collection point nor the
>>>> underground piping to do so.
>>>> Stealing toilets would be illogical. Together with the great army
>>>> discipline, it smells strongly of naive bullshit.
>>>
>>> I have seen toilets in houses without common sewage, so that does not
>>> mean that you cannot use them.
>>
>> Indeed, I live in such a house, as do most folk out in the country.
>> What do you think a septic tank is for?
>>
>> pt
>
> Me too.  Both my house and my office building have aerobic septic
> systems, 1,750 gallons for my house and 2,500 gallons for my office
> building and warehouse.  Both are a total pain in the butt and expensive
> to maintain.  But, maintenance is much better than sewage backup in the
> house like I had last year.
>
> Lynn

Odd - mine is trouble free - every couple of years I get it pumped, but
thats it.

I'd be curious of the distribution of households without plumbed
toilets. Probably some poor areas and on
Indian reservations. I know that up in Fairbanks, Alaska, a lot
of houses are 'dry', since in winter its too cold to use a septic
system or get running water. I don't know how they manage.

pt

On 14/02/2024 22:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 2/13/2024 9:46 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>>> In article <uq3fp6$24lb7$2@dont-email.me>,
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Throw the unreclaimable nuclear waste into the Sun.
>>>
>>> Realizing that this comment might have been intended
>>> to be somewhat flippant...
>>>
>>> The energy requirement to throw something into the Sun
>>> is considerably higher than to eject it from the Solar
>>> System entirely. Orbital mechanics be weird. Or, at
>>> least, non-intuitive.
>>
>> Nope, entirely serious. Many SF books and movies have stuff thrown into
>> the Sun or the local star. It should be a downhill trip once you
>> achieve LEO.
>
> Why should it be a downhill trip? You need to slow the orbital speed
> of the rocket[*] in order to orbit close enough to the sun for it to "fall" into
> the sun. Think shuttle re-entry writ very very large.
>
> And LEO is far from escape velocity (or did you mean Low Solar Orbit?)

There's no regenerative braking in space.

But I will be pleased to hear about old
and new sci fi stories in which there is.

On 2/15/2024 10:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:10:18 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 10:03:08?AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> From context, I'd guess "Anthropological Climate Change"
>>
>> Anthropogenic, please. It isn't the fault of people like Franz Boas.
>
> But does he know the difference?

Just a brain fart. I do know the difference.

pt

On 2/15/2024 11:33 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 17:51:50 -0500, Cryptoengineer
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/14/2024 11:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On 14 Feb 2024 14:11:36 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 14/02/2024 03:39, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>>>>>> In article <ewsxN.78098$Sf59.8@fx48.iad>,
>>>>>> Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Given the current decade+ and $$$$$$ it takes to build a plant, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It didn't used to take that long to build a nuclear power
>>>>>> plant, and the laws of physics have not changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What we have once accomplished in the past, we can
>>>>>> aspire to do in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we don't want to have more
>>>>> nuclear power stations built the old way.
>>>>>
>>>>> And "the old way" probably runs up to about
>>>>> last year.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm speaking in general, not particularly.
>>>>> But there are conspicuous examples of "oops".
>>>>
>>>> Much of the problem to my mind is that these plants are being designed by
>>>> civil engineers.... aero engineers think very differently about risks...
>>>
>>> Being run by MBAs may not be helping very much either.
>>>
>>> IIRC, the people actually doing the work at one such plant reported
>>> having to mark the really important switches with pull-tabs because
>>> the people-in-charge wanted to see nice clean control boards with all
>>> switches looking exactly the same.
>>
>>
>> ITYM Beer Taps????
>
> A "beer tap" is a "tap" used for beer. A "tap" is a valve used to get
> a fluid out of a barrel. Or maple syrup out of a maple tree.
>
> The "pull-tab" meant here is the "built-in device used to open a
> beverage can" Bing brings up. The can can be said to have been
> "popped" when opened. The "beverage" could, of course, be beer.

I was thinking of the highly differentiated and decorative tops
placed on beer taps in a bar. I've seen photos of (I think) the
3 Mile Island control room where they were on a number of critical
controls to make it harder to grab the wrong one by accident.

The term seems to be 'beer tap handle':
https://www.bradfordsauction.com/auction-lot/7pc-lot-of-domestic-craft-import-beer-tap-handle_4804023AAA

pt

Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On 2/15/2024 10:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:10:18 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 10:03:08?AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>> From context, I'd guess "Anthropological Climate Change"
>>>
>>> Anthropogenic, please. It isn't the fault of people like Franz Boas.
>>
>> But does he know the difference?
>
>Just a brain fart. I do know the difference.

Likewise.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> writes:
>> This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
>> while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
>
> Please configure your usenet client to _NOT_ send MIME
> format posts. This is a text medium.
>
>>
>> --8323328-1183054958-1707947330=:4785
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>
>
>>> Most refugees leaving Ukraine would be doing so to avoid conscription.
>>> Is that form of slavery what you mean by "murderous iniquitous aggression=
>> "?
>>
>> Incorrect. Most refugees who leave are ukrainian women, children, elderly,=
>> =20
>> sick and others who are allowed to leave.
>>
>> Are you pro Putin? You sound very pro Putin to me.
>
> I believe Titus is a kiwi, and not a mainstream kiwi.
>
>
Got it! Thank you for the information! =)

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On 14 Feb 2024 22:41:42 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>The bigger problem with outhouses here in Texas is yellow jackets and=20
>>>copperheads. Both seem attracted to the rich, earthy smells. A=20
>>>detailed look above and in the pit is needful before just sitting down.
>>
>>This is why they are called "pit vipers," yes.
>
>Ah. Humor. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_viper>

Well, why else? They don't actually have armpits, being snakey
and all.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I was thinking of the highly differentiated and decorative tops
>placed on beer taps in a bar. I've seen photos of (I think) the
>3 Mile Island control room where they were on a number of critical
>controls to make it harder to grab the wrong one by accident.

Yes. Aircraft radar systems do similar things, where the knobs all
have different shapes so you can tell exactly which is which by feel.
>
>The term seems to be 'beer tap handle':
>https://www.bradfordsauction.com/auction-lot/7pc-lot-of-domestic-craft-import-beer-tap-handle_4804023AAA

Many beer manufacturers seem to put more money into fancy tap handles
than into making good beer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 6:03 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 4:46 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>> On 2/14/2024 4:48 PM, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 15/02/24 00:13, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/02/2024 19:35, D wrote:
>>>>>>> I can add some anecdotal evidence here as well. I met a Ukrainian
>>>>>>> refugee in my local bar a couple of months ago and she told me
>>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>> her home town, after the russians invaded, all the toilets where
>>>>>>> missing from the houses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The russian soldiers removed all of them, loaded on trucks and sent
>>>>>>> back to their home villages in russia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm shocked by the loo-ting.  :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason why about 20% of Russian households do not have flush
>>>>> toilets
>>>>> is that villages do not have a common sewerage collection point nor the
>>>>> underground piping to do so.
>>>>> Stealing toilets would be illogical. Together with the great army
>>>>> discipline, it smells strongly of naive bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen toilets in houses without common sewage, so that does not
>>>> mean that you cannot use them.
>>>
>>> Indeed, I live in such a house, as do most folk out in the country.
>>> What do you think a septic tank is for?
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>> Me too.  Both my house and my office building have aerobic septic
>> systems, 1,750 gallons for my house and 2,500 gallons for my office
>> building and warehouse.  Both are a total pain in the butt and expensive
>> to maintain.  But, maintenance is much better than sewage backup in the
>> house like I had last year.
>>
>> Lynn
>
> Odd - mine is trouble free - every couple of years I get it pumped, but
> thats it.

Anaerobic vs aerobic? We have the old-school tank and leach field anaerobic
system (house was built in 1980). We've had it pumped twice in about 20 years,
no other maintenance. The aerobic systems with the sprinklers need a
maintenance contract and inspection at least every six months (not to mention
costing at least $20k as a replacement).

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 16/02/24 14:44, Scott Dorsey wrote:
snip
>
> Many beer manufacturers seem to put more money into fancy tap handles
> than into making good beer.
> --scott

I have drunk much more than my share of beer and have a professional
brewer as a friend. My idea of a good beer, in the now long gone days
when elbow bending was a major activity, was one that was bland but
refreshed the mouth for more conversation or another cigarette. So I was
happy with the cheap mass produced NZ brands and still am though I
rarely drink beer but have lager in the fridge and garage. I ignore
recommendations of good beer from those that know better but do salivate
thinking of the Heineken Lager where part of the tap handle is a small
fountain to rinse the glass with ice cold water to decrease its
temperature to that of the lager.

On 16/02/24 15:48, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 6:03 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 2/14/2024 4:46 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>>> On 2/14/2024 4:48 PM, D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 15/02/24 00:13, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/02/2024 19:35, D wrote:
>>>>>>>> I can add some anecdotal evidence here as well. I met a Ukrainian
>>>>>>>> refugee in my local bar a couple of months ago and she told me
>>>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>>> her home town, after the russians invaded, all the toilets where
>>>>>>>> missing from the houses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The russian soldiers removed all of them, loaded on trucks and sent
>>>>>>>> back to their home villages in russia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm shocked by the loo-ting.  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason why about 20% of Russian households do not have flush
>>>>>> toilets
>>>>>> is that villages do not have a common sewerage collection point nor the
>>>>>> underground piping to do so.
>>>>>> Stealing toilets would be illogical. Together with the great army
>>>>>> discipline, it smells strongly of naive bullshit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen toilets in houses without common sewage, so that does not
>>>>> mean that you cannot use them.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, I live in such a house, as do most folk out in the country.
>>>> What do you think a septic tank is for?
>>>>
>>>> pt

To return to my original sceptic question, I now ask D if all the septic
tanks were stolen as well as well as the plumbing, toilets and piping?

>>>
>>> Me too.  Both my house and my office building have aerobic septic
>>> systems, 1,750 gallons for my house and 2,500 gallons for my office
>>> building and warehouse.  Both are a total pain in the butt and expensive
>>> to maintain.  But, maintenance is much better than sewage backup in the
>>> house like I had last year.
>>>
>>> Lynn

Even if it was only a small village, with, say 1,000 properties, how
many army trucks would be needed to transport these tanks with
associated piping, plumbing and toilets?

>>
>> Odd - mine is trouble free - every couple of years I get it pumped, but
>> thats it.
>
> Anaerobic vs aerobic? We have the old-school tank and leach field anaerobic
> system (house was built in 1980). We've had it pumped twice in about 20 years,
> no other maintenance. The aerobic systems with the sprinklers need a
> maintenance contract and inspection at least every six months (not to mention
> costing at least $20k as a replacement).
>
> Robert

Obviously the best economic solution would be to install a stolen flush
toilet over the long drop and spend the savings on vodka.

On 14 Feb 2024 03:54:14 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Mad Hamish <newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>>Some people have checked around fracking and other natural gas
>>extraction areas and found much higher leakage levels than the
>>industry claims.
>
>It is pretty clear that the leakage is very, very high. This is a bad
>thing for the gas industry not only because it gets them terrible
>publicity what with people's wells getting contaminated and flammable
>gas coming out of their water taps, but ALSO because the gas industry
>is in the business of selling gas. Gas that escapes into the atmosphere
>is gas that cannot be sold.

That's not really an issue for them.
Losing say, 5% of gas to the atmosphere doesn't really increase the
cost of producing a volumen of gas in the short term
Yeah, over the lifetime of a project it changes things a bit but not a
huge amount
The cost of reducing the losses would probably be pretty high

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:10:05 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:25:59 +1100, Mad Hamish
><newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 18:40:50 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
>><naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2024-02-13, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Didn't russia persuade Ukraine to hand back all nuclear weapons on their
>>>> soil when they became free
>>>
>>>It's a bit more complicated, but basically Ukraine received security
>>>assurances, including from Russia, for giving up the Soviet nuclear
>>>weapons it had inherited on its territory.
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
>>
>>and they've almost been worth the paper they're printed on...
>
>The one with Russia, yes. But the USA and others helping the Ukraine
>could be viewed as honoring them.

I don't know how accurate the wikipedia summation of the artilcles is
I'd kind of hope there was more involved than "o.k. if you're invaded
we'll give you some technology" but it really looks like there wasn't
even a commitment to even do that
the only commitment looks to be to raise it with the Security Council
where any action would be vetoed by one of the countries involved in
it (let's face it, it'd be Russia or a puppet state of theirs invading
unles it was the USA)

also from the wikipedia article
'MacFarlane, a professor of international relations, "It gives
signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force
anyone to act in Ukraine."[51] In the US, neither the George H. W.
Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to
give a military commitment to Ukraine, and they did not believe the US
Senate would ratify an international treaty and so the memorandum was
adopted in more limited terms.[52] The memorandum has a requirement of
consultation among the parties "in the event a situation arises that
raises a question concerning the ... commitments" set out in the
memorandum.[53] Whether or not the memorandum sets out legal
obligations, the difficulties that Ukraine has encountered since early
2014 may cast doubt on the credibility of future security assurances
that are offered in exchange for nonproliferation commitments.[54]
Regardless, the United States publicly maintains that "the Memorandum
is not legally binding", calling it a "political commitment".'
>
>At least in the past. And in the future as well if the Republicans
>ever wake up and decide to actually /do/ their jobs.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:

> On 16/02/24 15:48, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/14/2024 6:03 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 2/14/2024 4:46 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>>>> On 2/14/2024 4:48 PM, D wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 15/02/24 00:13, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/02/2024 19:35, D wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I can add some anecdotal evidence here as well. I met a Ukrainian
>>>>>>>>> refugee in my local bar a couple of months ago and she told me
>>>>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>>>> her home town, after the russians invaded, all the toilets where
>>>>>>>>> missing from the houses.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The russian soldiers removed all of them, loaded on trucks and sent
>>>>>>>>> back to their home villages in russia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm shocked by the loo-ting.  :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason why about 20% of Russian households do not have flush
>>>>>>> toilets
>>>>>>> is that villages do not have a common sewerage collection point nor the
>>>>>>> underground piping to do so.
>>>>>>> Stealing toilets would be illogical. Together with the great army
>>>>>>> discipline, it smells strongly of naive bullshit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen toilets in houses without common sewage, so that does not
>>>>>> mean that you cannot use them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, I live in such a house, as do most folk out in the country.
>>>>> What do you think a septic tank is for?
>>>>>
>>>>> pt
>
> To return to my original sceptic question, I now ask D if all the septic
> tanks were stolen as well as well as the plumbing, toilets and piping?

See previous km of conversation about different systems. I recommend
reading about various non-water systems, and last, but not least, ask you
to consider that there is value in the porcelain throne construction as
well if all you ever had was a hole in the ground.

Last, but not least, we must consider the scenario where said loot could
be sold, as well as a general lack of knowledge about how the object in
question is installed and part of a larger system.

I think I'll finish here, since your questions to me, seem very tedious.
If you do want to believe the russian soldiers are knights in shining
armour, coming from a a land of plenty and high technology, please go
ahead.

>>>>
>>>> Me too.  Both my house and my office building have aerobic septic
>>>> systems, 1,750 gallons for my house and 2,500 gallons for my office
>>>> building and warehouse.  Both are a total pain in the butt and expensive
>>>> to maintain.  But, maintenance is much better than sewage backup in the
>>>> house like I had last year.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>
> Even if it was only a small village, with, say 1,000 properties, how
> many army trucks would be needed to transport these tanks with
> associated piping, plumbing and toilets?
>
>>>
>>> Odd - mine is trouble free - every couple of years I get it pumped, but
>>> thats it.
>>
>> Anaerobic vs aerobic? We have the old-school tank and leach field anaerobic
>> system (house was built in 1980). We've had it pumped twice in about 20 years,
>> no other maintenance. The aerobic systems with the sprinklers need a
>> maintenance contract and inspection at least every six months (not to mention
>> costing at least $20k as a replacement).
>>
>> Robert
>
> Obviously the best economic solution would be to install a stolen flush
> toilet over the long drop and spend the savings on vodka.
>

On 16 Feb 2024 at 05:10:29 GMT, "Mad Hamish"
<newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:

> On 14 Feb 2024 03:54:14 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> Mad Hamish <newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>>> Some people have checked around fracking and other natural gas
>>> extraction areas and found much higher leakage levels than the
>>> industry claims.
>>
>> It is pretty clear that the leakage is very, very high. This is a bad
>> thing for the gas industry not only because it gets them terrible
>> publicity what with people's wells getting contaminated and flammable
>> gas coming out of their water taps, but ALSO because the gas industry
>> is in the business of selling gas. Gas that escapes into the atmosphere
>> is gas that cannot be sold.
>
> That's not really an issue for them.
> Losing say, 5% of gas to the atmosphere doesn't really increase the
> cost of producing a volumen of gas in the short term
> Yeah, over the lifetime of a project it changes things a bit but not a
> huge amount
> The cost of reducing the losses would probably be pretty high

Save hundred of thousands by not bothering to fix leakage; externalise
the costs to other people to the tune of billions in infrastructure
damage and loss of life. Rake in subsidies and profits at the same time.
Win win!

Cheers - Jaimie
--
The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
-- Terry Pratchett

>On Fri, 16 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>
>> To return to my original sceptic question, I now ask D if all the septic
>> tanks were stolen as well as well as the plumbing, toilets and piping?

Oh no! It's a cryptic septic skeptic!
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 16/02/2024 01:44, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking of the highly differentiated and decorative tops
>> placed on beer taps in a bar. I've seen photos of (I think) the
>> 3 Mile Island control room where they were on a number of critical
>> controls to make it harder to grab the wrong one by accident.
>
> Yes. Aircraft radar systems do similar things, where the knobs all
> have different shapes so you can tell exactly which is which by feel.

As I recall, the undercarriage control
lever with a model of a set of wheels
at the top of it, which sounds childish,
was put in place by order of
accident investigators.

On 2/15/2024 9:48 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 6:03 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 2/14/2024 4:46 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>>> On 2/14/2024 4:48 PM, D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 15/02/24 00:13, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/02/2024 19:35, D wrote:
>>>>>>>> I can add some anecdotal evidence here as well. I met a Ukrainian
>>>>>>>> refugee in my local bar a couple of months ago and she told me
>>>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>>> her home town, after the russians invaded, all the toilets where
>>>>>>>> missing from the houses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The russian soldiers removed all of them, loaded on trucks and sent
>>>>>>>> back to their home villages in russia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm shocked by the loo-ting.  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason why about 20% of Russian households do not have flush
>>>>>> toilets
>>>>>> is that villages do not have a common sewerage collection point nor the
>>>>>> underground piping to do so.
>>>>>> Stealing toilets would be illogical. Together with the great army
>>>>>> discipline, it smells strongly of naive bullshit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen toilets in houses without common sewage, so that does not
>>>>> mean that you cannot use them.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, I live in such a house, as do most folk out in the country.
>>>> What do you think a septic tank is for?
>>>>
>>>> pt
>>>
>>> Me too.  Both my house and my office building have aerobic septic
>>> systems, 1,750 gallons for my house and 2,500 gallons for my office
>>> building and warehouse.  Both are a total pain in the butt and expensive
>>> to maintain.  But, maintenance is much better than sewage backup in the
>>> house like I had last year.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> Odd - mine is trouble free - every couple of years I get it pumped, but
>> thats it.
>
> Anaerobic vs aerobic? We have the old-school tank and leach field anaerobic
> system (house was built in 1980). We've had it pumped twice in about 20 years,
> no other maintenance. The aerobic systems with the sprinklers need a
> maintenance contract and inspection at least every six months (not to mention
> costing at least $20k as a replacement).

I think its aerobic (that's how little attention I have to pay to it).
It is entirely passive - no pumps, and an underground leach field.

pt

On 2/15/2024 11:26 PM, Titus G wrote:
> On 16/02/24 15:48, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/14/2024 6:03 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 2/14/2024 4:46 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>>>> On 2/14/2024 4:48 PM, D wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Titus G wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 15/02/24 00:13, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/02/2024 19:35, D wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I can add some anecdotal evidence here as well. I met a Ukrainian
>>>>>>>>> refugee in my local bar a couple of months ago and she told me
>>>>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>>>> her home town, after the russians invaded, all the toilets where
>>>>>>>>> missing from the houses.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The russian soldiers removed all of them, loaded on trucks and sent
>>>>>>>>> back to their home villages in russia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm shocked by the loo-ting.  :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason why about 20% of Russian households do not have flush
>>>>>>> toilets
>>>>>>> is that villages do not have a common sewerage collection point nor the
>>>>>>> underground piping to do so.
>>>>>>> Stealing toilets would be illogical. Together with the great army
>>>>>>> discipline, it smells strongly of naive bullshit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen toilets in houses without common sewage, so that does not
>>>>>> mean that you cannot use them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, I live in such a house, as do most folk out in the country.
>>>>> What do you think a septic tank is for?
>>>>>
>>>>> pt
>
> To return to my original sceptic question, I now ask D if all the septic
> tanks were stolen as well as well as the plumbing, toilets and piping?
>
>>>>
>>>> Me too.  Both my house and my office building have aerobic septic
>>>> systems, 1,750 gallons for my house and 2,500 gallons for my office
>>>> building and warehouse.  Both are a total pain in the butt and expensive
>>>> to maintain.  But, maintenance is much better than sewage backup in the
>>>> house like I had last year.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>
> Even if it was only a small village, with, say 1,000 properties, how
> many army trucks would be needed to transport these tanks with
> associated piping, plumbing and toilets?
>
>>>
>>> Odd - mine is trouble free - every couple of years I get it pumped, but
>>> thats it.
>>
>> Anaerobic vs aerobic? We have the old-school tank and leach field anaerobic
>> system (house was built in 1980). We've had it pumped twice in about 20 years,
>> no other maintenance. The aerobic systems with the sprinklers need a
>> maintenance contract and inspection at least every six months (not to mention
>> costing at least $20k as a replacement).
>>
>> Robert
>
> Obviously the best economic solution would be to install a stolen flush
> toilet over the long drop and spend the savings on vodka.

This video shows Russian troops loading a toilet into a car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHeoe7jgDeo

pt