dostaan-i-3aziiz

This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.

3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN

ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN

dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN

ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN

us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN

dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN

Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN

......................................................................................................................

Naseer

On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:17:18 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> dostaan-i-3aziiz
>
> This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
>
> 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
>
> ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
>
> Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> .....................................................................................................................
>
> Naseer

Naseer sahib, aadaab,

aap ne bhi kis ghazal kii yaad dilaa dii! :)

Back in the day, I attended numerous live concerts by Munni Bagam, she used to visit our city often. One thing I remember distinctly is how forcefully she used to play the harmonium.
She always sang this particular ghazal in her live shows, and it was very popular with the audiences, especially sh'er #3 and #4 quoted above always got a lot of applause. I personally was not a fan of this ghazal and did not even know the name of the poet until you mentioned it in this post.
I am also curious as to why Rekhta lists this as a Hindi ghazal. I have tried to do the taqtii, and have been unable to fit it fully in any of the established Urdu ghazal meters. I get stuck in one particular place. I am a bit rusty on the meter practice, and will try again in a day or so when I have more free time. It is definitely not in Meer's well known Hindi meter, and I am not familiar with any other standard Hindi ghazal meters. I wish Irfan sahib would see this thread, we really need an expert opinion here. I may actually reach out to him regarding this.
Back to Munni Begam live, she always finished her concerts with "ik baar muskuraa do", which I deem as a classic, her very best. Personally, I always requested her to sing Qateel Shifai's :
"haath diyaa us ne mire haath meN
maiN to valii ban gaya ik raat meN", one of my all-time favorite ghazals.

Memories! :)

Your original question remains unanswered.......

More later,

__________Zoya

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Zoya wrote:
> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:17:18 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > dostaan-i-3aziiz
> >
> > This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
> >
> > 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> > maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> > dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> > jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> > aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> > bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> > jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> > ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > .....................................................................................................................
Naseer sahib,

aadaab,

As promised, I am back with the meter response. Here is the best I could do trying to fit this ghazal in one of the standard meters for Urdu ghazals.

Ish q meN kyaa ba taa yeN k do noN // kis qa dr cho T khaa ye hu e haiN
mau t ne ham ko maa raa hai aur ham// zin da gii ke sa taa ye hu e haiN
2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 // 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2

I am unable to fit the entire misraa in one meter, so I have to break it into two parts.
Each half fits in a standard meter:

2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2

So, the rhythm is preserved, but I do not think we can break apart each misraa like this and still call it a standard "Urdu ghazal". "Hindi ghazal"??? Possibly.

I have really not done any research to find some other ghazals in this (unusual) meter, maybe that angle can be explored further. Since I've been thinking about this subconsciously, another 'ghazal' that came to my mind this morning is one that I have heard in Bhupinder and Mitali Singh's live concerts. This one also fits the exact same pattern, with the misraa broken into two symmetric halves:

bevafaa yuuN tiraa muskuraanaa, yaad aane ke qaabil nahiiN hai

I looked up the poet's name just now, have not heard of him previously. Personally, I have never been a fan of this ghazal either. Some of the asha'ar seem to have mass appeal and get the loudest applause in live concerts, which I always find kind of annoying.

So, have I been somewhat able to answer your query? Remember, I am a mere TA, trying to do my best as a substitute.:)

Gosh, how I miss Prof RK and Irfan sahib!

___________Zoya

On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 7:17:18 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> dostaan-i-3aziiz
>
> This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
>
> 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
>
> ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
>
> Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> .....................................................................................................................
>
> Naseer

Naseer sb, aadaab!

It’s nice to see you (your post, to be exact) :) after a long time. Hope all is well. I was called upon by Zoya sahiba to comment on this post of yours so here I am. In short, her taqtee' of Akhlaq Saghari's Ghazal is correct. The bahr of the Ghazal is indeed faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa or 2-1-2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2, and she is right in observing that this bahr has a clearly defined mid-point where it can be broken into two equal pieces. In other words, it’s a shikasta bahr. But I am not sure how Rekhta categorized it as a Hindi bahr. This is a muzaahif form of bahr-e-Mutadaarik Musamman whose saalim arkaan are faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun. In Akhlaq sb's Ghazal, the last rukn of this saalim bahr has been replaced by just ‘faa,’ which is a recognized muzaahif form of the saalim rukn ‘faa-i-lun.’ So the bahr used in this Ghazal is very much an Urdu bahr in my humble opinion, although not a popular one. I can quote examples of the saalim form of this bahr (please see below), but I can't recall any examples of the bahr used in Akhlaq sb's Ghazal.

aashiyaaN jal gayaa, gulsitaaN luT gayaa, ham qafas se nikal kar kidhar jaayeNge (Raaz Allahabadi)
aaKhirii vaqt hai, aaKhirii saaNs hai, zindagii kii hai shaam aaKhirii aaKhirii (Shakeel Badayuni)
hai kahaaN kaa iraada tumhaaraa sanam kis ke dil ko adaaoN se bahlaaoge (Fana Bulandshahri)

Hope this helps.

niyaazmand,
Irfan :Abid:

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 12:06:45 AM UTC-5, Irfan Abid wrote:

> Naseer sb, aadaab!
>
> It’s nice to see you (your post, to be exact) :) after a long time. Hope all is well. I was called upon by Zoya sahiba to comment on this post of yours so here I am.

Irfan sahib, aadaab,

I am so happy to see you back in the group. :)

sab se pehle to aap ki nazr yeh she'r:

tere aane ki jab Khabar mehke
teri Khushbuu se saara ghar mehke :-))

In short, her taqtee' of Akhlaq Saghari's Ghazal is correct. The bahr of the Ghazal is indeed faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa or 2-1-2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2, and she is right in observing that this bahr has a clearly defined mid-point where it can be broken into two equal pieces. In other words, it’s a shikasta bahr.

All right! It always feels wonderful to get my meter attempts validated by my ustaads. Honestly, the detailed lessons that you provided on Urdu ghazal meters have been one of the best gifts I have received in my life, and I will be eternally grateful for it.

But I am not sure how Rekhta categorized it as a Hindi bahr. This is a muzaahif form of bahr-e-Mutadaarik Musamman whose saalim arkaan are faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun. In Akhlaq sb's Ghazal, the last rukn of this saalim bahr has been replaced by just ‘faa,’ which is a recognized muzaahif form of the saalim rukn ‘faa-i-lun.’ So the bahr used in this Ghazal is very much an Urdu bahr in my humble opinion, although not a popular one.

Yes, I realized this bahr was a derivative of bahr-e-Mutadaarik Musamman, but was not confident how to classify it since it is not listed as a standard bahr on the meter list. I don't have the skill set to recognize whether a slight variation from a standard meter is legit or not. So you see, how badly your presence is needed here! What would Naseer sahib and I do without you?!

I can quote examples of the saalim form of this bahr (please see below), but I can't recall any examples of the bahr used in Akhlaq sb's Ghazal.
>
> aashiyaaN jal gayaa, gulsitaaN luT gayaa, ham qafas se nikal kar kidhar jaayeNge (Raaz Allahabadi)
> aaKhirii vaqt hai, aaKhirii saaNs hai, zindagii kii hai shaam aaKhirii aaKhirii (Shakeel Badayuni)
> hai kahaaN kaa iraada tumhaaraa sanam kis ke dil ko adaaoN se bahlaaoge (Fana Bulandshahri)

Interesting. Let us see if Naseer sahib can find some examples in the derivative bahr under discussion.

If/when you get a chance, will you please answer a follow up question for me? A short answer will suffice. Besides Meer's Hindi meter, are there any other established meters for Hindi ghazals? In general, are Hindi ghazals also written within the Urdu ghazal meters, or is it a broader/different domain?

> Hope this helps.

It definitely helps, I am sure Naseer sahib will also agree with my sentiment.

> niyaazmand,
> Irfan :Abid:

Once again, thank you so much for taking time from your busy schedule to answer our queries.

Best regards,

_________Zoya

On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 4:17:18 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> dostaan-i-3aziiz
>
> This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
>
> 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
>
> ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
>
> Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
>
> .....................................................................................................................
>
> Naseer

***janaab Naseer saaHib:

aap ke Ghaa'ibaana Hukm ki ta'ameel karte huye yeh faqeer-e-be-taqseer Haazir-e-Khidmat hai.

Huzuur, aap ki post-karda Ghazal ka lab-o-lahja Khaalis 'Urduvii' hai aur Irfan sahib ne to is ki baHr bhi ta'ayyun kar di hai aur voh baHr bhi 'Urduvii' hai. ab agar ko'ii shaKhs ise "Hindi Ghazal" kahta hai to kahta rahe, hameN is se ko'ii sar-o-kaar nahiiN. aaKhir, Bollywood ki voh filmeN jin ki dialogue aur jis ke gaane Khaalis Urdu zabaan meN kahe gaye hoN, log-baag un filmoN ko bhi to Hindi filmeN kahte haiN.

is Ghazal ki jo baHr hai, us ki aek aur misaal Zoya sahiba ne pesh ki hai. go k yeh Ghazal/qawwaali nihaayat maqbuul hai, adabi liHaaz se is ka daraja bahut nichlaa hai.

Irfan sahib ne jo misaaleN pesh ki haiN un ki baHr 212/212/212/212 (+repeat) hai, jab-k AKhlaaq sahib ki Ghazal ki baHr 212/212/212/2 (+repeat) hai. agar ham shikasta baHr na barteN bal-k is ka 'aadhaa' hi barteN to suurat-e-Haal yeh hogi:

212/212/212/212 (baHr A)
versus
212/212/212/2 (baHr B)

baHr A ki misaaleN to mil jaati haiN, jaise

chaaNdnii hai abhii nau-javaaN nau-javaaN
dard be-kaif Gham be-mazaa ho gayaa
dil ko rokaa bahut, phir bhi ham aa gaye

magar baHr B ki misaaleN baht kam milti haiN. maiN naazireeN ki dilchaspi ke liye aek misaal is baHr ki pesh karta huuN:

mere lab par tirii baat aa'ii
phuul mahke kalii muskuraa'ii

is Ghazal ka aek she'r Khusuusi taur se qaabil-e-Ghaur hai:

yeh Khudaa ke bhi bas kii nahiiN thii
aisi tasveer kis ne banaa'ii?

aur agar aap jaan_na chaahte haiN k yeh Ghazal kis shaa'r ki hai to is ka maqt'a suniye:

taaknaa jhaaNknaa har kisii ko
Qais meN thii yihii ik buraa'ii :-)

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

On Sunday, 30 July 2023 at 01:53:13 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:17:18 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > dostaan-i-3aziiz
> >
> > This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
> >
> > 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> > maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> > dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> > jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> > aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> > bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> > jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> > ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > .....................................................................................................................
> >
> > Naseer
> Naseer sahib, aadaab,
>
> aap ne bhi kis ghazal kii yaad dilaa dii! :)
>
> Back in the day, I attended numerous live concerts by Munni Bagam, she used to visit our city often. One thing I remember distinctly is how forcefully she used to play the harmonium.
> She always sang this particular ghazal in her live shows, and it was very popular with the audiences, especially sh'er #3 and #4 quoted above always got a lot of applause. I personally was not a fan of this ghazal and did not even know the name of the poet until you mentioned it in this post.
> I am also curious as to why Rekhta lists this as a Hindi ghazal. I have tried to do the taqtii, and have been unable to fit it fully in any of the established Urdu ghazal meters. I get stuck in one particular place. I am a bit rusty on the meter practice, and will try again in a day or so when I have more free time. It is definitely not in Meer's well known Hindi meter, and I am not familiar with any other standard Hindi ghazal meters. I wish Irfan sahib would see this thread, we really need an expert opinion here. I may actually reach out to him regarding this.
> Back to Munni Begam live, she always finished her concerts with "ik baar muskuraa do", which I deem as a classic, her very best. Personally, I always requested her to sing Qateel Shifai's :
> "haath diyaa us ne mire haath meN
> maiN to valii ban gaya ik raat meN", one of my all-time favorite ghazals.
>
> Memories! :)
>
> Your original question remains unanswered.......
>
> More later,
>
> __________Zoya

Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread. It seems "Mir's Hindi metre" was used by Urdu poets even before Mir but Mir has used it more often. A detailed discussion is found in shi3r-i-shor-angez (2006) by Shamsur Rahman Faruqi, pps 175-187

https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/sher-e-shor-angez-volume-001-shamsur-rahman-faruqi-ebooks-2

On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 15:58:45 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Zoya wrote:
> > On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:17:18 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > > dostaan-i-3aziiz
> > >
> > > This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
> > >
> > > 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> > > maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
> > >
> > > ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> > > dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
> > >
> > > dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> > > jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
> > >
> > > ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> > > aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
> > >
> > > us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> > > bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
> > >
> > > dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> > > jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
> > >
> > > Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> > > ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
> > >
> > > .....................................................................................................................
> Naseer sahib,
>
> aadaab,
>
> As promised, I am back with the meter response. Here is the best I could do trying to fit this ghazal in one of the standard meters for Urdu ghazals..
>
> Ish q meN kyaa ba taa yeN k do noN // kis qa dr cho T khaa ye hu e haiN
> mau t ne ham ko maa raa hai aur ham// zin da gii ke sa taa ye hu e haiN
> 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 // 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2
>
> I am unable to fit the entire misraa in one meter, so I have to break it into two parts.
> Each half fits in a standard meter:
>
> 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2 1 2 / 2
>
> So, the rhythm is preserved, but I do not think we can break apart each misraa like this and still call it a standard "Urdu ghazal". "Hindi ghazal"??? Possibly.
>
> I have really not done any research to find some other ghazals in this (unusual) meter, maybe that angle can be explored further. Since I've been thinking about this subconsciously, another 'ghazal' that came to my mind this morning is one that I have heard in Bhupinder and Mitali Singh's live concerts. This one also fits the exact same pattern, with the misraa broken into two symmetric halves:
>
> bevafaa yuuN tiraa muskuraanaa, yaad aane ke qaabil nahiiN hai
>
> I looked up the poet's name just now, have not heard of him previously. Personally, I have never been a fan of this ghazal either. Some of the asha'ar seem to have mass appeal and get the loudest applause in live concerts, which I always find kind of annoying.
>
> So, have I been somewhat able to answer your query? Remember, I am a mere TA, trying to do my best as a substitute.:)
>
> Gosh, how I miss Prof RK and Irfan sahib!
>
> ___________Zoya

Zoya SaaHibah, aadaab.

The question that comes to mind is this. If a Russian poet used the rubaa3ii meter in his/her poem, would that rubaa3ii become an Arabic/Persian/Urdu rubaa3ii? :-)

Naseer

On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 06:06:45 UTC+1, Irfan Abid wrote:
> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 7:17:18 AM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> > dostaan-i-3aziiz
> >
> > This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
> >
> > 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> > maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> > dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> > jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> > aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> > bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> > jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> > ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > .....................................................................................................................
> >
> > Naseer
> Naseer sb, aadaab!
>
> It’s nice to see you (your post, to be exact) :) after a long time. Hope all is well. I was called upon by Zoya sahiba to comment on this post of yours so here I am. In short, her taqtee' of Akhlaq Saghari's Ghazal is correct. The bahr of the Ghazal is indeed faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa or 2-1-2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2-1-2 2, and she is right in observing that this bahr has a clearly defined mid-point where it can be broken into two equal pieces. In other words, it’s a shikasta bahr. But I am not sure how Rekhta categorized it as a Hindi bahr. This is a muzaahif form of bahr-e-Mutadaarik Musamman whose saalim arkaan are faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun faa-i-lun. In Akhlaq sb's Ghazal, the last rukn of this saalim bahr has been replaced by just ‘faa,’ which is a recognized muzaahif form of the saalim rukn ‘faa-i-lun.’ So the bahr used in this Ghazal is very much an Urdu bahr in my humble opinion, although not a popular one. I can quote examples of the saalim form of this bahr (please see below), but I can't recall any examples of the bahr used in Akhlaq sb's Ghazal.
>
> aashiyaaN jal gayaa, gulsitaaN luT gayaa, ham qafas se nikal kar kidhar jaayeNge (Raaz Allahabadi)
> aaKhirii vaqt hai, aaKhirii saaNs hai, zindagii kii hai shaam aaKhirii aaKhirii (Shakeel Badayuni)
> hai kahaaN kaa iraada tumhaaraa sanam kis ke dil ko adaaoN se bahlaaoge (Fana Bulandshahri)
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> niyaazmand,
> Irfan :Abid:

Irfan SaaHib, aadaab.

I am grateful to Zoya SaaHibah for asking you to look at my query and to you for accepting her request. So, it seems that the baHr is not Hindi and you also agree with me that the Ghazal does appear to be in Urdu. I am sure Zoya SaaHibah will be thrilled to find out that her taqtii3 is 100% correct. :-)

Naseer

On Sunday, 6 August 2023 at 00:41:55 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 4:17:18 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > dostaan-i-3aziiz
> >
> > This morning I was listening to the following Ghazal on Youtube, in the voice of Munni Begum. I thought the poet's name would be given but there was no mention of it. Besides, the maqta3 wasn't included in the sung version, so I decided to look it up in rekhta.org. I found the shaa3ir to be Akhlaq Saghari. However, what surprised me was that this is one of two "Hindi" Ghazals listed on the site. Perhaps, I am missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me how it can be construed as Hindi. Is it the metre? Your views please.
> >
> > 3ishq meN kyaa bataa'eN kih donoN kis qadr choT khaa'e hu'e haiN
> > maut ne un ko maaraa hai aur ham zindagii ke sataa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ek aaNsuu nah palkoN se Tapke yih vafaa kaa taqaazaa hai varnah
> > dosto ham bhii aaNkhoN meN apnii gaNgaa-jamnaa chhupaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dekh saaqii tere mai-kade kaa kitnaa pahuNchaa hu'aa rind huuN maiN
> > jitne aa'e haiN mayyit meN merii sab ke sab hii lagaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > ai laHd apnii miTTii se kah de daaGh lagne nah paa'e kafan ko
> > aaj hii ham ne badle haiN kapRe aaj hii ham nahaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > us ne shaadii kaa joRaa pahan kar sirf chuumaa thaa mere kafan ko
> > bas usii din se jannat meN HuureN mujh ko duulhaa banaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > dushmanoN kii shikaayat hai be-jaa dostoN se gilah kyaa kareN ge
> > jhaR chuke jin daraxtoN ke patte phir kahaaN un ke saa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > Gham to yih hai kih jin shaa3iroN kii baat bhii zindagii-bhar nah puuchhii
> > ba3d marne ke Akhlaq un ko log sar pih biThaa'e hu'e haiN
> >
> > .....................................................................................................................
> >
> > Naseer
> ***janaab Naseer saaHib:
>
> aap ke Ghaa'ibaana Hukm ki ta'ameel karte huye yeh faqeer-e-be-taqseer Haazir-e-Khidmat hai.
>
> Huzuur, aap ki post-karda Ghazal ka lab-o-lahja Khaalis 'Urduvii' hai aur Irfan sahib ne to is ki baHr bhi ta'ayyun kar di hai aur voh baHr bhi 'Urduvii' hai. ab agar ko'ii shaKhs ise "Hindi Ghazal" kahta hai to kahta rahe, hameN is se ko'ii sar-o-kaar nahiiN. aaKhir, Bollywood ki voh filmeN jin ki dialogue aur jis ke gaane Khaalis Urdu zabaan meN kahe gaye hoN, log-baag un filmoN ko bhi to Hindi filmeN kahte haiN.
>
> is Ghazal ki jo baHr hai, us ki aek aur misaal Zoya sahiba ne pesh ki hai.. go k yeh Ghazal/qawwaali nihaayat maqbuul hai, adabi liHaaz se is ka daraja bahut nichlaa hai.
>
> Irfan sahib ne jo misaaleN pesh ki haiN un ki baHr 212/212/212/212 (+repeat) hai, jab-k AKhlaaq sahib ki Ghazal ki baHr 212/212/212/2 (+repeat) hai. agar ham shikasta baHr na barteN bal-k is ka 'aadhaa' hi barteN to suurat-e-Haal yeh hogi:
>
> 212/212/212/212 (baHr A)
> versus
> 212/212/212/2 (baHr B)
>
> baHr A ki misaaleN to mil jaati haiN, jaise
>
> chaaNdnii hai abhii nau-javaaN nau-javaaN
> dard be-kaif Gham be-mazaa ho gayaa
> dil ko rokaa bahut, phir bhi ham aa gaye
>
> magar baHr B ki misaaleN baht kam milti haiN. maiN naazireeN ki dilchaspi ke liye aek misaal is baHr ki pesh karta huuN:
>
> mere lab par tirii baat aa'ii
> phuul mahke kalii muskuraa'ii
>
> is Ghazal ka aek she'r Khusuusi taur se qaabil-e-Ghaur hai:
>
> yeh Khudaa ke bhi bas kii nahiiN thii
> aisi tasveer kis ne banaa'ii?
>
> aur agar aap jaan_na chaahte haiN k yeh Ghazal kis shaa'r ki hai to is ka maqt'a suniye:
>
> taaknaa jhaaNknaa har kisii ko
> Qais meN thii yihii ik buraa'ii :-)
>
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

Thank you Raj Kumar SaaHib for taking your time and the trouble to look at this thread. Your first paragraph answers my query without any ambiguity or doubt. You, Irfan SaaHib and Zoya SaaHibah know that all this "taqtii3" business is beyond me but I am nevertheless grateful to all of you for going the extra mile in deducing and explaining the baHr of the said Ghazal. Thank you also for quoting ash3aar from your own Ghazal. The fact that you have only one negative characteristic of "taaknaa-jhaaNknaa" is to be lauded. This trait would be lost in my huge list of "buraa'iyaaN"! -:(

Will you have a little time for "diivaar-i-gulistaaN" thread?

Naseer

On Saturday, August 5, 2023 at 6:41:55 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***janaab Naseer saaHib:
>
> aap ke Ghaa'ibaana Hukm ki ta'ameel karte huye yeh faqeer-e-be-taqseer Haazir-e-Khidmat hai.

Raj Uncle :-))))

I had been away for a few days in Edinburgh for the Fringe festival, and did not take my laptop with me, hence a slight delay in responding.

I can't even tell you how happy I am to see you in the forum after a long gap.
aap ki nazr yeh she'r:

yaad aaye to dil munavvar ho
diid ho jaaye to nazar mehke :-)

Alup is not the same without you, it somehow feels soulless. kabhi kabhaar hii sahii, aap idhar aate rahaa kareN.

> Huzuur, aap ki post-karda Ghazal ka lab-o-lahja Khaalis 'Urduvii' hai aur Irfan sahib ne to is ki baHr bhi ta'ayyun kar di hai aur voh baHr bhi 'Urduvii' hai. ab agar ko'ii shaKhs ise "Hindi Ghazal" kahta hai to kahta rahe, hameN is se ko'ii sar-o-kaar nahiiN. aaKhir, Bollywood ki voh filmeN jin ki dialogue aur jis ke gaane Khaalis Urdu zabaan meN kahe gaye hoN, log-baag un filmoN ko bhi to Hindi filmeN kahte haiN.
>
> is Ghazal ki jo baHr hai, us ki aek aur misaal Zoya sahiba ne pesh ki hai.. go k yeh Ghazal/qawwaali nihaayat maqbuul hai, adabi liHaaz se is ka daraja bahut nichlaa hai.

I totally agree. In fact, I am not a fan of either one of these ghazals and get irritated when people go gaga over these in live concerts.

Oh, and Irfan sahib and you should be proud of how well you two taught me the ghazal meters. At least I can dissect, even if not always comfortable with more subtle details. As I said earlier, what would I do without you??

> Irfan sahib ne jo misaaleN pesh ki haiN un ki baHr 212/212/212/212 (+repeat) hai, jab-k AKhlaaq sahib ki Ghazal ki baHr 212/212/212/2 (+repeat) hai. agar ham shikasta baHr na barteN bal-k is ka 'aadhaa' hi barteN to suurat-e-Haal yeh hogi:
>
> 212/212/212/212 (baHr A)
> versus
> 212/212/212/2 (baHr B)

Right, baHr A is relatively more common. I really have not done any research to find more ghazals in B, maybe I will when I have some free time. Of course, the example you quoted is just great! :)

> taaknaa jhaaNknaa har kisii ko
> Qais meN thii yihii ik buraa'ii :-)

This reminded me of a she'r by the US based humorous poet Khalid Irfan:

mujh ko jo rokte the bahut taak jhaaNk se
vo jaa rahe haiN apni nayii ahliya ke saath :-))

> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar***

Hoping to see you more often,

Your (self proclaimed) favorite pupil,

________Zoya

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 2:23:01 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.

aadaab Naseer sahib,

> Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread. It seems "Mir's Hindi metre" was used by Urdu poets even before Mir but Mir has used it more often. A detailed discussion is found in shi3r-i-shor-angez (2006) by Shamsur Rahman Faruqi, pps 175-187
>
> https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/sher-e-shor-angez-volume-001-shamsur-rahman-faruqi-ebooks-2

Thank you so much for the link. Shamsur Rahman Faruqi sahib is an authority in such matters, and this book looks like a goldmine. I read Urdu nasr rather slowly, so I will have to print out the relevant pages and go over them at my pace. Sounds very interesting indeed.

__________Zoya

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 3:01:26 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> Zoya SaaHibah, aadaab.

aadaab Naseer sahib,

> The question that comes to mind is this. If a Russian poet used the rubaa3ii meter in his/her poem, would that rubaa3ii become an Arabic/Persian/Urdu rubaa3ii? :-)

Hmmmmmm, Maybe it will. :)

After all, we do have examples of genuine Hindi ghazals and Urdu Haikus!!

One assignment that I had given myself a while back is to check which Urdu Behrs, if any, might Shiv Kumar Batalvi's Punjabi ghazals fit. I'll get to it one of these days, mind you they will still be Punjabi ghazals, regardless of the meter. :-)

> Naseer

__________Zoya

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 3:01:26 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:

> Zoya SaaHibah, aadaab.

aadaab Naseer sahib,

> The question that comes to mind is this. If a Russian poet used the rubaa3ii meter in his/her poem, would that rubaa3ii become an Arabic/Persian/Urdu rubaa3ii? :-)

Hmmmmmm, Will it? Depends on if the Russian poet is writing in his/her mother tongue or the rubaa'ii tongue! :)

Well, we do have examples of genuine Hindi ghazals and Urdu Haikus!!

One assignment that I had given myself a while back is to check which Urdu Behrs, if any, might Shiv Kumar Batalvi's Punjabi ghazals fit. I'll get to it one of these days, mind you they will still be Punjabi ghazals, regardless of the meter. :-)

> Naseer

__________Zoya