Hi all,

I've been putting off upgrading the mailing list server that hosts the
list version of this newsgroup for far too long, enough that it's blocking
a couple of needed major operating system upgrades that will also affect
the infrastructure for running this group. I'm hoping to finally tackle
that this weekend.

Unfortunately (and this is why it's taken so long), this requires a major
change to the mailing list software from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3. The old
software is end of life and no longer supported, and Mailman 3 is
substantially different, mostly in ways that I'm not that excited about.
I did some research into possible alternatives, and this still seems like
the best approach that doesn't require I put more effort into this than I
have readily available, but there will be a few annoyances.

The main annoying changes are:

* The archives are... weird. They're a bit more like a message board than
a mailing list archive, they don't use a fixed-width font (although I
will look again if that's configurable once I get the migration done and
can upgrade to the latest version), and there are upvotes and downvotes
and other things like that which seem rather pointless to me but that
don't seem to be configurable. All of the archives prior to this
cutover will also continue to be available in the old format, but going
forward new messages will be only archived in the new system (called
Hyperkitty) because the old stuff has to go away since it requires an
unsupported version of Python. The new archive does offer an mbox
download of messages, so at least in theory you can still download the
message and view it in a regular mail client, and of course the regular
mailing list function of sending you the messages will work as always.

* The new web site interface really wants you to create an account to use
it. I would rather that you not have to do that, and I definitely don't
want to have even hashed versions of any important passwords, so if you
create an account, please use some password you don't use anywhere else.
You can still subscribe to the list without creating an account, but
unsubscribing from the list without creating an account can only be done
via email. I think this is a poor design choice, but it doesn't appear
to be configurable. You can always mail racc-leave@lists.eyrie.org to
unsubscribe (after the cutover) without having to create an account, or
just mail me directly if all else fails and I'll try to find your
address and remove it.

I will also have to do some major surgery to make the integration with the
newsgroup work properly. I think I've figured out how to do that;
hopefully it will work.

I'm planning on doing this upgrade during this weekend. During that time
period there will be a lot of outages, a lot of software in motion, and
probably a few bugs and unforseen problems. Apologies in advance for the
disruption, and make sure you keep anything you're posting over the
weekend so that you can resend it if needed. I will send the all-clear
when I think everything is working.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote at 01:16 this Saturday (GMT):
> Hi all,
>
> I've been putting off upgrading the mailing list server that hosts the
> list version of this newsgroup for far too long, enough that it's blocking
> a couple of needed major operating system upgrades that will also affect
> the infrastructure for running this group. I'm hoping to finally tackle
> that this weekend.
>
> Unfortunately (and this is why it's taken so long), this requires a major
> change to the mailing list software from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3. The old
> software is end of life and no longer supported, and Mailman 3 is
> substantially different, mostly in ways that I'm not that excited about.
> I did some research into possible alternatives, and this still seems like
> the best approach that doesn't require I put more effort into this than I
> have readily available, but there will be a few annoyances.
>
> The main annoying changes are:
>
> * The archives are... weird. They're a bit more like a message board than
> a mailing list archive, they don't use a fixed-width font (although I
> will look again if that's configurable once I get the migration done and
> can upgrade to the latest version), and there are upvotes and downvotes
> and other things like that which seem rather pointless to me but that
> don't seem to be configurable. All of the archives prior to this
> cutover will also continue to be available in the old format, but going
> forward new messages will be only archived in the new system (called
> Hyperkitty) because the old stuff has to go away since it requires an
> unsupported version of Python. The new archive does offer an mbox
> download of messages, so at least in theory you can still download the
> message and view it in a regular mail client, and of course the regular
> mailing list function of sending you the messages will work as always.
>
> * The new web site interface really wants you to create an account to use
> it. I would rather that you not have to do that, and I definitely don't
> want to have even hashed versions of any important passwords, so if you
> create an account, please use some password you don't use anywhere else.
> You can still subscribe to the list without creating an account, but
> unsubscribing from the list without creating an account can only be done
> via email. I think this is a poor design choice, but it doesn't appear
> to be configurable. You can always mail racc-leave@lists.eyrie.org to
> unsubscribe (after the cutover) without having to create an account, or
> just mail me directly if all else fails and I'll try to find your
> address and remove it.
>
> I will also have to do some major surgery to make the integration with the
> newsgroup work properly. I think I've figured out how to do that;
> hopefully it will work.
>
> I'm planning on doing this upgrade during this weekend. During that time
> period there will be a lot of outages, a lot of software in motion, and
> probably a few bugs and unforseen problems. Apologies in advance for the
> disruption, and make sure you keep anything you're posting over the
> weekend so that you can resend it if needed. I will send the all-clear
> when I think everything is working.

Good luck!!
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 3/29/24 9:16 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've been putting off upgrading the mailing list server that hosts the
> list version of this newsgroup for far too long, enough that it's blocking
> a couple of needed major operating system upgrades that will also affect
> the infrastructure for running this group. I'm hoping to finally tackle
> that this weekend.

Awesome! :D

> Unfortunately (and this is why it's taken so long), this requires a major
> change to the mailing list software from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3. The old
> software is end of life and no longer supported, and Mailman 3 is
> substantially different, mostly in ways that I'm not that excited about.
> I did some research into possible alternatives, and this still seems like
> the best approach that doesn't require I put more effort into this than I
> have readily available, but there will be a few annoyances.

Oof, understandable.

> The main annoying changes are:
>
> * The archives are... weird. They're a bit more like a message board than
> a mailing list archive, they don't use a fixed-width font (although I
> will look again if that's configurable once I get the migration done and
> can upgrade to the latest version), and there are upvotes and downvotes
> and other things like that which seem rather pointless to me but that
> don't seem to be configurable. All of the archives prior to this
> cutover will also continue to be available in the old format, but going
> forward new messages will be only archived in the new system (called
> Hyperkitty) because the old stuff has to go away since it requires an
> unsupported version of Python. The new archive does offer an mbox
> download of messages, so at least in theory you can still download the
> message and view it in a regular mail client, and of course the regular
> mailing list function of sending you the messages will work as always.
>
> * The new web site interface really wants you to create an account to use
> it. I would rather that you not have to do that, and I definitely don't
> want to have even hashed versions of any important passwords, so if you
> create an account, please use some password you don't use anywhere else.
> You can still subscribe to the list without creating an account, but
> unsubscribing from the list without creating an account can only be done
> via email. I think this is a poor design choice, but it doesn't appear
> to be configurable. You can always mail racc-leave@lists.eyrie.org to
> unsubscribe (after the cutover) without having to create an account, or
> just mail me directly if all else fails and I'll try to find your
> address and remove it.

Feature cruft! >:/ Annoying, but we can live with it.

> I will also have to do some major surgery to make the integration with the
> newsgroup work properly. I think I've figured out how to do that;
> hopefully it will work.

Woo! \o/ You can do it!

> I'm planning on doing this upgrade during this weekend. During that time
> period there will be a lot of outages, a lot of software in motion, and
> probably a few bugs and unforseen problems. Apologies in advance for the
> disruption, and make sure you keep anything you're posting over the
> weekend so that you can resend it if needed. I will send the all-clear
> when I think everything is working.

Sounds good! Good luck, and thank you for all your work keeping this community
going. :>

Drew "sure makes me happy" Nilium

Well, this *is* an appropriate weekend for having something die and then
return reconfigured....

Dave Van Domelen, RACC is risen indeed!

Dave Van Domelen <dvandom@eyrie.org> wrote at 17:47 this Saturday (GMT):
> Well, this *is* an appropriate weekend for having something die and then
> return reconfigured....
>
> Dave Van Domelen, RACC is risen indeed!

Why is it appropriate?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2024-03-30 12:20, candycanearter07 wrote:
> Dave Van Domelen <dvandom@eyrie.org> wrote at 17:47 this Saturday (GMT):
>> Well, this *is* an appropriate weekend for having something die and then
>> return reconfigured....
>>
>> Dave Van Domelen, RACC is risen indeed!
>
> Why is it appropriate?

Christian reference, having nothing to do with the Easter bunny. 8{)>

--
-- (signed) Scott Eiler 8{D> ------ http://www.eilertech.com/ -------

"Your Royal Highness, instead of devoting yourself exclusively
to Minerva, should, instead, rather offer sacrifice at the altars
of Bacchus, Orpheus, Venus, and Morpheus."

- Advice to Prince Duarte of Portugal. From "The golden age of
Prince Henry the Navigator", by Joaquim Pedro Oliveira Martins.
Coming soon to Project Gutenberg.