https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/

On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:

> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
>

Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
candidate and large gift giver priorities.

-Owen

Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:12:04 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:
> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> >
>
> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> candidate and large gift giver priorities.

If I understand you correctly, the lawsuit wasn't about the exclusion of Jews, but of Asians.

Henk

On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 7:12:04 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> >
>
> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> candidate and large gift giver priorities.
>

Had you read the article thoroughly you
would have noticed that Harvard also
discussed setting quotas on Jewish
candidates. That was not included in
the lawsuit.

This hair splitting is however pointless.
Setting admission quotas based on
race is equally obscene regardless
of the target group.

It is pretty clear Harvard is a racist
institution that uses "affirmative
action" to cover its racist goals.

dk

On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 7:23:09 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:12:04 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:
> > On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
> >
> > > https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> > >
> >
> > Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> > particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> > better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> > the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> > out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> > with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> > candidate and large gift giver priorities.

> If I understand you correctly, the lawsuit
> wasn't about the exclusion of Jews, but
> of Asians.

Had you read the article thoroughly you
would have noticed that Harvard also
discussed setting quotas on Jewish
candidates. That was not included in
the lawsuit.

This hair splitting is however pointless.
Setting admission quotas based on
race is equally obscene regardless
of the target group.

It is pretty clear Harvard is a racist
institution that uses "affirmative
action" to cover its racist goals.

dk

Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:40:21 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 7:12:04 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> > On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
> >
> > > https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> > >
> >
> > Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> > particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> > better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> > the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> > out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> > with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> > candidate and large gift giver priorities.
> >
> Had you read the article thoroughly you
> would have noticed that Harvard also
> discussed setting quotas on Jewish
> candidates. That was not included in
> the lawsuit.
>
> This hair splitting is however pointless.
> Setting admission quotas based on
> race is equally obscene regardless
> of the target group.
>
> It is pretty clear Harvard is a racist
> institution that uses "affirmative
> action" to cover its racist goals.

It's above all stupid. Refusing talent in an institution that thrives on talent. It reminds me of the protests at the piano competition in Brussels (I must have told this before) by people who protested against the rule that only the more talented could win such a competition. Everyone should be given a chance.

Henk

On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 7:52:38 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:40:21 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> > On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 7:12:04 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> > > On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
> > >
> > > > https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> > > >
> > >
> > > Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> > > particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> > > better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> > > the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> > > out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> > > with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> > > candidate and large gift giver priorities.
> > >
> > Had you read the article thoroughly you
> > would have noticed that Harvard also
> > discussed setting quotas on Jewish
> > candidates. That was not included in
> > the lawsuit.
> >
> > This hair splitting is however pointless.
> > Setting admission quotas based on
> > race is equally obscene regardless
> > of the target group.
> >
> > It is pretty clear Harvard is a racist
> > institution that uses "affirmative
> > action" to cover its racist goals.
>
> It's above all stupid. Refusing talent in
> an institution that thrives on talent.

Harvard does not "thrive on talent". It
thrives on donations from rich alumni,
and on its never ending revolving doors
into government.

dk

On 2023-07-01 14:40:17 +0000, Dan Koren said:

> On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 7:12:04 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> >
>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/>
>> >>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that
>> the> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to
>> exclude> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other
>> minorities. So> the white student representation was less affected --
>> they just carved> out Asian students for space for other minorities.
>> The only problem> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and
>> bar legacy> candidate and large gift giver priorities.>
> Had you read the article thoroughly youwould have noticed that Harvard
> alsodiscussed setting quotas on Jewishcandidates. That was not included
> inthe lawsuit.
>

I did read the article thoroughly and also other articles in the media
about the lawsuit. Most of the US press is just bemoaning the loss of
the concept of affirmative action, without describing the actual
details of the case and why Harvard's use of AA was in itself racial
segregation. Your article just addressed additional Harvard
transgressions referred to in the decisions, without covering the crux
of the ruling.

-Owen

On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 9:11:55 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-01 14:40:17 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 7:12:04 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> >> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> >
> >> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/>
> >> >>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that
> >> the> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to
> >> exclude> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other
> >> minorities. So> the white student representation was less affected --
> >> they just carved> out Asian students for space for other minorities.
> >> The only problem> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and
> >> bar legacy> candidate and large gift giver priorities.>
> >
> > Had you read the article thoroughly youwould have noticed that Harvard
> > alsodiscussed setting quotas on Jewishcandidates. That was not included
> > inthe lawsuit.
>
> I did read the article thoroughly and also other articles in the media
> about the lawsuit. Most of the US press is just bemoaning the loss of
> the concept of affirmative action, without describing the actual
> details of the case and why Harvard's use of AA was in itself racial
> segregation. Your article just addressed additional Harvard
> transgressions referred to in the decisions, without covering the crux
> of the ruling.

It wasn't "my article". I did not write it, and
I did not endorse it. I highlighted it to the
group for discussion, No more, no less,
and nothing else. Can you stop getting
personal about everything?

Pax

dk

On 7/1/2023 10:11 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
>
> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities.  So the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved out Asian students for space for other minorities.    The only problem with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy candidate and large gift giver priorities.
>
> -Owen
>

When my daughter was rejected by Columbia, I spoke with an admissions officer who said that class rank was the most important determination of admission, and the fact that she only in the top 20% of her class at an outstanding and very competitive suburban school counted against her. He also said that by the they admitted their athletes, legacies and minorities, there weren't that many places left anyway. It is true that legacies and large gift givers (possibly most legacies themselves?) result in admissions biased in favor of whites, but is is indirect, and neither non-legacies nor non-gift givers and nor protect in civil rights legislation. If colleges stick their guns and give preference not black students specifically but admit students from neighborhood or zip codes or whatever that disproportionately Black, is that a violation of the SCOTUS decision? Could there be another case down the road?

On 7/1/2023 10:23 AM, HT wrote:
> Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:12:04 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:
>> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>>
>>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
>>>
>>
>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
>> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
>> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
>> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
>> out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
>> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
>> candidate and large gift giver priorities.
>
> If I understand you correctly, the lawsuit wasn't about the exclusion of Jews, but of Asians.
>
> Henk
>

If you give admissions preference to one racial group you are necessarily excluding qualified (on merit/achievement) candidates of all other groups.

On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 9:59:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/1/2023 10:23 AM, HT wrote:
> > Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:12:04 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:
> >> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
> >>
> >>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> >>>
> >>
> >> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> >> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> >> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> >> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> >> out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> >> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> >> candidate and large gift giver priorities.
> >
> > If I understand you correctly, the lawsuit wasn't about the exclusion of
> > Jews, but of Asians.
>
> If you give admissions preference to one racial group you are necessarily
> excluding qualified (on merit/achievement) candidates of all other groups..

Only if the number of seats is limited. There is no reason for this nowadays.

dk

On 7/2/2023 3:26 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 9:59:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/1/2023 10:23 AM, HT wrote:
>>> Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:12:04 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:
>>>> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
>>>> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
>>>> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
>>>> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
>>>> out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
>>>> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
>>>> candidate and large gift giver priorities.
>>>
>>> If I understand you correctly, the lawsuit wasn't about the exclusion of
>>> Jews, but of Asians.
>>
>> If you give admissions preference to one racial group you are necessarily
>> excluding qualified (on merit/achievement) candidates of all other groups.
>
> Only if the number of seats is limited. There is no reason for this nowadays.
>
> dk

You don't think the number of admission vacancies at Harvard (or anywhare else) is limited?

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 7:10:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/2/2023 3:26 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 9:59:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 7/1/2023 10:23 AM, HT wrote:
> >>> Op zaterdag 1 juli 2023 om 16:12:04 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:
> >>>> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> >>>> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> >>>> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> >>>> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> >>>> out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> >>>> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> >>>> candidate and large gift giver priorities.
> >>>
> >>> If I understand you correctly, the lawsuit wasn't about the exclusion of
> >>> Jews, but of Asians.
> >>
> >> If you give admissions preference to one racial group you are necessarily
> >> excluding qualified (on merit/achievement) candidates of all other groups.
> >
> > Only if the number of seats is limited. There is no reason for this nowadays.
>
> You don't think the number of admission vacancies at Harvard (or anywhare else) is limited?

Yes, they are. They shouldn't be. The bar for admission should
be set exclusively by performance, not by the number of "seats".

dk

On 2023-07-02 04:16:36 +0000, Dan Koren said:

> On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 9:11:55 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>> On 2023-07-01 14:40:17 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> > On Saturday, July 1,
>> 2023 at 7:12:04 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:> >> On 2023-07-01
>> 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> >> >>
>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/>>
>> >> >>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact
>> that> >> the> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision
>> to> >> exclude> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other>
>> >> minorities. So> the white student representation was less affected
>> --> >> they just carved> out Asian students for space for other
>> minorities.> >> The only problem> with the decision is that it couldn't
>> go further, and> >> bar legacy> candidate and large gift giver
>> priorities.>> >
>>> Had you read the article thoroughly youwould have noticed that Harvard>
>>> > alsodiscussed setting quotas on Jewishcandidates. That was not
>>> included> > inthe lawsuit.>> I did read the article thoroughly and also
>>> other articles in the media> about the lawsuit. Most of the US press is
>>> just bemoaning the loss of> the concept of affirmative action, without
>>> describing the actual> details of the case and why Harvard's use of AA
>>> was in itself racial> segregation. Your article just addressed
>>> additional Harvard> transgressions referred to in the decisions,
>>> without covering the crux> of the ruling.
> It wasn't "my article". I did not write it, andI did not endorse it. I
> highlighted it to thegroup for discussion, No more, no less,
> and nothing else. Can you stop gettingpersonal about everything?
>

My, we're touchy today! Have the cats turned you out?

-Owen

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 2:19:45 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-02 04:16:36 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > It wasn't "my article". I did not write it, andI did not endorse it. I
> > highlighted it to thegroup for discussion, No more, no less,
> > and nothing else. Can you stop gettingpersonal about everything?
>
> My, we're touchy today! Have the cats turned you out?

It seems to have become standard MO in this group to
attack people rather than discuss the subject matter
every time the latter happens to be unpleasant to the
audience.

As to the cats, they are dilligently training to punch
and to scratch your nose should you ever show up
in the neighborhood.

dk

On 2023-07-02 04:46:41 +0000, Frank Berger said:

> On 7/1/2023 10:11 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>>
>>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
>>>
>>
>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
>> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
>> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities.  So
>> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
>> out Asian students for space for other minorities.    The only problem
>> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
>> candidate and large gift giver priorities.
>>
>> -Owen
>>
>
> When my daughter was rejected by Columbia, I spoke with an admissions
> officer who said that class rank was the most important determination
> of admission, and the fact that she only in the top 20% of her class at
> an outstanding and very competitive suburban school counted against
> her. He also said that by the they admitted their athletes, legacies
> and minorities, there weren't that many places left anyway. It is true
> that legacies and large gift givers (possibly most legacies
> themselves?) result in admissions biased in favor of whites, but is is
> indirect, and neither non-legacies nor non-gift givers and nor protect
> in civil rights legislation. If colleges stick their guns and give
> preference not black students specifically but admit students from
> neighborhood or zip codes or whatever that disproportionately Black, is
> that a violation of the SCOTUS decision? Could there be another case
> down the road?

It looks like colleges are scrambling to find ways around the SCOTUS
decision. I would also think that a subterfuge by choosing from all
black neighborhoods and/or predominantly black zip codes would be hard
to justify in respect of the decision. The decision states that race
can be a factor only on a personal level, as in, how I managed to be
top of my class while overcoming stress (for lack of a better word) due
to my race. Personally, I think legacy admissions are the biggest
obstacle for true merit based admission. Just having a degree from an
Ivy or good technical school (MIT, Caltech) gives you a leg up on other
job applicants. After I got my MS from Brown my income increased 50%
the following year (your mileage may differ). If you consider that
white guys who make it big by going to an Ivy then put their kids
through the same Ivy makes it a self perpetuating class barrier, and
not just on race.

I recommend college kids get the cheapest education they can and skip
the Ivies, etc. Graduate from a good state school and apply for grad
school in your specialty. It's easier to get in to grad school then
the four year college and the degree is worth more after you're done.

-Owen

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 2:37:23 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-02 04:46:41 +0000, Frank Berger said:
>
> > On 7/1/2023 10:11 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> >> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
> >>
> >>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
> >>
> >> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the
> >> particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude
> >> better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities. So
> >> the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved
> >> out Asian students for space for other minorities. The only problem
> >> with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy
> >> candidate and large gift giver priorities.
> >>
> >> -Owen
> >
> > When my daughter was rejected by Columbia, I spoke with an admissions
> > officer who said that class rank was the most important determination
> > of admission, and the fact that she only in the top 20% of her class at
> > an outstanding and very competitive suburban school counted against
> > her. He also said that by the they admitted their athletes, legacies
> > and minorities, there weren't that many places left anyway. It is true
> > that legacies and large gift givers (possibly most legacies
> > themselves?) result in admissions biased in favor of whites, but is is
> > indirect, and neither non-legacies nor non-gift givers and nor protect
> > in civil rights legislation. If colleges stick their guns and give
> > preference not black students specifically but admit students from
> > neighborhood or zip codes or whatever that disproportionately Black, is
> > that a violation of the SCOTUS decision? Could there be another case
> > down the road?
>
> It looks like colleges are scrambling to find ways around the SCOTUS
> decision. I would also think that a subterfuge by choosing from all
> black neighborhoods and/or predominantly black zip codes would be hard
> to justify in respect of the decision. The decision states that race
> can be a factor only on a personal level, as in, how I managed to be
> top of my class while overcoming stress (for lack of a better word) due
> to my race. Personally, I think legacy admissions are the biggest
> obstacle for true merit based admission. Just having a degree from an
> Ivy or good technical school (MIT, Caltech) gives you a leg up on other
> job applicants. After I got my MS from Brown my income increased 50%
> the following year (your mileage may differ). If you consider that
> white guys who make it big by going to an Ivy then put their kids
> through the same Ivy makes it a self perpetuating class barrier, and
> not just on race.
>
> I recommend college kids get the cheapest education they can and skip
> the Ivies, etc. Graduate from a good state school and apply for grad
> school in your specialty. It's easier to get in to grad school then
> the four year college and the degree is worth more after you're done.
>

Your points are well taken, however I would recommend an even more
radical approach: Learn to read, math, physics and programming at the
earliest possible age. Write a killer software package or application no
later than 15 (preferably earlier) and sell it to AMZN, GOOG or MSFT for
a billion or more. Don't waste your time and money on getting a degree.
In particular, don't waste your time or money on getting a degree from a
"prestigious" university. Fuck Yale and Harvard. The only measure of
success is success.

dk

On 7/2/2023 5:37 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-02 04:46:41 +0000, Frank Berger said:
>
>> On 7/1/2023 10:11 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>>> On 2023-07-01 04:30:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>>>
>>>> https://www.timesofisrael.com/harvards-jewish-quotas-cited-in-us-supreme-courts-affirmative-action-ruling/
>>>
>>> Most of the press coverage on this decision excludes the fact that the particular lawsuit against Harvard was Harvard's decision to exclude better credentialed Asian candidates in favor of other minorities.  So the white student representation was less affected -- they just carved out Asian students for space for other minorities.    The only problem with the decision is that it couldn't go further, and bar legacy candidate and large gift giver priorities.
>>>
>>> -Owen
>>>
>>
>> When my daughter was rejected by Columbia, I spoke with an admissions officer who said that class rank was the most important determination of admission, and the fact that she only in the top 20% of her class at an outstanding and very competitive suburban school counted against her.  He also said that by the they admitted their athletes, legacies and minorities, there weren't that many places left anyway.  It is true that legacies and large gift givers (possibly most legacies themselves?) result in admissions biased in favor of whites, but is is indirect, and neither non-legacies nor non-gift givers and nor protect in civil rights legislation.  If colleges stick their guns and give preference not black students specifically but admit students from neighborhood or zip codes or whatever that disproportionately Black, is that a violation of the SCOTUS decision?  Could there be another case down the road?
>
> It looks like colleges are scrambling to find ways around the SCOTUS decision. I would also think that a subterfuge by choosing from all black neighborhoods and/or predominantly black zip codes would be hard to justify in respect of the decision.  The decision states that race can be a factor only on a personal level, as in, how I managed to be top of my class while overcoming stress (for lack of a better word) due to my race.  Personally, I think legacy admissions are the biggest obstacle for true merit based admission.  Just having a degree from an Ivy or good technical school (MIT, Caltech) gives you a leg up on other job applicants. After I got my MS from Brown my income increased 50% the following year (your mileage may differ). If you consider that white guys who make it big by going to an Ivy then put their kids through the same Ivy makes it a self perpetuating class barrier, and not just on race.
>
> I recommend college kids get the cheapest education they can and skip the Ivies, etc. Graduate from a good state school and apply for grad school in your specialty.  It's easier to get in to grad school then the four year college and the degree is worth more after you're done.
>
> -Owen
>

I don't know if Michigan gives preference to legacy cases or mot, but my grandson, and excellent student, whose father is a Michigan grad, did not get into Michigan. Perhaps he was up against the same thing my daughter was. He attended Hunter College High School, supposedly the most selective public high school in the country. Every kid is brilliant. They have been criticized for lack of diversity, not doubt because admission is based on test performance.

On 2023-07-02 21:30:45 +0000, Dan Koren said:

> On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 2:19:45 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>> On 2023-07-02 04:16:36 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> > It wasn't "my
>> article". I did not write it, andI did not endorse it. I> > highlighted
>> it to thegroup for discussion, No more, no less,
>>> and nothing else. Can you stop gettingpersonal about everything?>> My,
>>> we're touchy today! Have the cats turned you out?
> It seems to have become standard MO in this group toattack people
> rather than discuss the subject matterevery time the latter happens to
> be unpleasant to theaudience.

I didn't attack you. I only added a point of interest to expand the thread.
>
> As to the cats, they are dilligently training to punchand to scratch
> your nose should you ever show up in the neighborhood.

My nose got scratched at about age 5 by my grandmother's cat. Well
deserved, as I pursued it under the table.

Your neighborhood is safe from me.

-Owen

>

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 8:48:45 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-02 21:30:45 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 2:19:45 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> >> On 2023-07-02 04:16:36 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> > It wasn't "my
> >> article". I did not write it, andI did not endorse it. I> > highlighted
> >> it to thegroup for discussion, No more, no less,
> >>> and nothing else. Can you stop gettingpersonal about everything?>> My,
> >>> we're touchy today! Have the cats turned you out?
> > It seems to have become standard MO in this group toattack people
> > rather than discuss the subject matterevery time the latter happens to
> > be unpleasant to theaudience.
>
> I didn't attack you. I only added a point of interest to expand the thread.
> >
> > As to the cats, they are dilligently training to punchand to scratch
> > your nose should you ever show up in the neighborhood.
>
> My nose got scratched at about age 5 by my grandmother's
> cat. Well deserved, as I pursued it under the table.
>
> Your neighborhood is safe from me.

We can always arrange to air drop a
feline brigade in your neighborhood. ;-)

dk

On 2023-07-02 21:57:39 +0000, Dan Koren said:

> On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 2:37:23 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:

> Your points are well taken, however I would recommend an even
> moreradical approach: Learn to read, math, physics and programming at
> theearliest possible age.

No harm in that.

> Write a killer software package or application nolater than 15
> (preferably earlier) and sell it to AMZN, GOOG or MSFT fora billion or
> more. Don't waste your time and money on getting a degree.

I disagree. Those days are mostly gone. The key used to be to write a
great piece of open source software and all the other nerds will admire
and toast you. There are thousands of apps in Apple's app store, just
waiting to be found. Nobody knows about your app.

How do you stand out? The world won't come looking for you, which
means you have to spend lots of time marketing and selling this app.

Let's say you invent a super great feature for Apple. Apple sees your
app, calls you in, asks you all about this wonderful thing that you
wrote. Then Apple copies the app, and includes it for free in it's
latest software release. They'll say they were planning to release
their version of the software when yours came out.

You have to know how the business world works too.

> In particular, don't waste your time or money on getting a degree from
> a"prestigious" university. Fuck Yale and Harvard. The only measure
> ofsuccess is success.

Or maybe you just want a job when you get out. In which case the
"prestigious" counts. I was the only Brown guy in a shop with MIT
grads at one point in my career. It was comparatively easy to get into
Brown's grad school, if you had decent GRE scores. It was a one year
program, and $1000 a course, for 10 courses. Bingo, I got a Brown CS
degree for $10K, and I learned a great deal from almost all of the
courses (except one where the teacher was a fool. He didn't last
long.) You don't need the PhD, unless you want to teach, and you can
make more money not teaching.

-Owen

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 9:01:12 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-02 21:57:39 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 2:37:23 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>
> > Your points are well taken, however I would recommend an
> > even more radical approach: Learn to read, math, physics
> > and programming at the earliest possible age.
>
> No harm in that.
>
> > Write a killer software package or application nolater than 15
> > (preferably earlier) and sell it to AMZN, GOOG or MSFT fora billion or
> > more. Don't waste your time and money on getting a degree.
>
> I disagree. Those days are mostly gone. The key used to be to write a
> great piece of open source software and all the other nerds will admire
> and toast you. There are thousands of apps in Apple's app store, just
> waiting to be found. Nobody knows about your app.

Those are tiny one function brain dead apps. Not the kind of software I
had in mind -- now or ever.
> How do you stand out? The world won't come looking for you, which
> means you have to spend lots of time marketing and selling this app.

You write an operating system, or a file system, or a database manager,
or a network stack that are an order of magnitude faster than any others.
Piece of cake! ;-)

> Let's say you invent a super great feature for Apple. Apple sees your
> app, calls you in, asks you all about this wonderful thing that you
> wrote. Then Apple copies the app, and includes it for free in it's
> latest software release. They'll say they were planning to release
> their version of the software when yours came out.
>
> You have to know how the business world works too.
>
> > In particular, don't waste your time or money on getting a degree from
> > a"prestigious" university. Fuck Yale and Harvard. The only measure
> > ofsuccess is success.
>
> Or maybe you just want a job when you get out. In which case
> the "prestigious" counts. I was the only Brown guy in a shop with
> MIT grads at one point in my career. It was comparatively easy to
> get into Brown's grad school, if you had decent GRE scores. It was
> a one year program, and $1000 a course, for 10 courses. Bingo, I
> got a Brown CS degree for $10K, and I learned a great deal from
> almost all of the courses (except one where the teacher was a
> fool. He didn't last long.) You don't need the PhD, unless you
> want to teach, and you can make more money not teaching.

You have no idea how many graduates from top tier schools fail
to solve my level 0 programming exercise. I see this at all levels,
including PhDs from the likes of Stanford, Berkeley, or Hackvard.

dk

On 2023-07-03 04:37:54 +0000, Dan Koren said:

> On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 9:01:12 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>> On 2023-07-02 21:57:39 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> > On Sunday, July 2,
>> 2023 at 2:37:23 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:>> > Your points are well
>> taken, however I would recommend an> > even more radical approach:
>> Learn to read, math, physics> > and programming at the earliest
>> possible age.>> No harm in that.>> > Write a killer software package or
>> application nolater than 15> > (preferably earlier) and sell it to
>> AMZN, GOOG or MSFT fora billion or
>>> more. Don't waste your time and money on getting a degree.
>>
>> I disagree. Those days are mostly gone. The key used to be to write a>
>> great piece of open source software and all the other nerds will
>> admire> and toast you. There are thousands of apps in Apple's app
>> store, just> waiting to be found. Nobody knows about your app.
> Those are tiny one function brain dead apps. Not the kind of software
> Ihad in mind -- now or ever.

Few are writing apps for desktop anymore. It's all writing full stack
for servers in java and yucky JavaScript.
There are so many server code writers they are a dime a dozen.

>> How do you stand out? The world won't come looking for you, which>
>> means you have to spend lots of time marketing and selling this app.
> You write an operating system, or a file system, or a database
> manager,or a network stack that are an order of magnitude faster than
> any others.Piece of cake! ;-)

Operating systems and file systems are pretty static now. Who's going
to buy your operating system? Apple? No. MS? No. Oracle? Definitely
not. Most of the big dudes are strictly Not Invented Here.

Databases are plentiful and either free or expensive. No room for a
middle man. Fads like Mongo come and go.

Network stack? Why, everyone uses the same ones. Why should they
switch for your unknown.

If you can write order of magnitude improvements, you won't have any
trouble getting a job. I wouldn't stake my career on being able to
come up with one.

>> Let's say you invent a super great feature for Apple. Apple sees your>
>> app, calls you in, asks you all about this wonderful thing that you>
>> wrote. Then Apple copies the app, and includes it for free in it's>
>> latest software release. They'll say they were planning to release>
>> their version of the software when yours came out.>> You have to know
>> how the business world works too.
>>
>>> In particular, don't waste your time or money on getting a degree from>
>>> > a"prestigious" university. Fuck Yale and Harvard. The only measure> >
>>> ofsuccess is success.
>>
>> Or maybe you just want a job when you get out. In which case> the
>> "prestigious" counts. I was the only Brown guy in a shop with> MIT
>> grads at one point in my career. It was comparatively easy to> get into
>> Brown's grad school, if you had decent GRE scores. It was> a one year
>> program, and $1000 a course, for 10 courses. Bingo, I> got a Brown CS
>> degree for $10K, and I learned a great deal from> almost all of the
>> courses (except one where the teacher was a> fool. He didn't last
>> long.) You don't need the PhD, unless you> want to teach, and you can
>> make more money not teaching.
> You have no idea how many graduates from top tier schools failto solve
> my level 0 programming exercise. I see this at all levels, including
> PhDs from the likes of Stanford, Berkeley, or Hackvard.

I'm not a big fan of programming tests. When you hire a plumber, do you
give him a test first? I'd rather show you my working apps or my
existing source code. There's books written about example programming
test questions. I would occasionally get asked one of them. If I had
bought the book I could look up the answer and get the job. Questions
like how can you tell if a linked list has circled back on itself. All
of them are esoteric and not likely to come up in real life. I'd
rather hire someone who can write good, solid, readable, understandable
code.

-Owen

On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 2:26:08 PM UTC+2, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-07-03 04:37:54 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
>
> > You have no idea how many graduates from top tier schools failto solve
> > my level 0 programming exercise. I see this at all levels, including
> > PhDs from the likes of Stanford, Berkeley, or Hackvard.

> I'm not a big fan of programming tests. When you hire a plumber, do you
> give him a test first? I'd rather show you my working apps or my
> existing source code. There's books written about example programming
> test questions. I would occasionally get asked one of them. If I had
> bought the book I could look up the answer and get the job. Questions
> like how can you tell if a linked list has circled back on itself. All
> of them are esoteric and not likely to come up in real life. I'd
> rather hire someone who can write good, solid, readable, understandable
> code.
>
> -Owen

You're taking this guy way too seriously.
You don't seriously think he's into programming or writing software, or even has a job, do you?
That's just another fictional ID meant to impress hoi polloi, just like the piano thing, the car thing, everything really.