Recently I've been digging underneath the sanjo ('scattered melodies') and shamanic-ritual recordings that are usually presented as 'what korean traditional music is'. It turns out sanjo started as a sort of pseudo-folkloric latter-day addition to a more prestigious 'pungnyu' repertoire ('wind and stream') performed by both upper-class amateurs and middle-class professionals.

Im Sok-yun (1908-1975) was an amateur player of komungo (sort of like chinese qin but with tall frets under only the middle three strings) who recorded several hours of music near the end of his life at KBS recording studios.

https://iha.go.kr/service/search_all_list.nihc?media_=audio&contentid_=12123
Pyongjo hoesang (cd1) and Yominrak (cd2+3) are both long suites which start agonizingly slow and accelerate minutely.

https://iha.go.kr/service/search_all_list.nihc?media_=audio&contentid_=12124
On cd4, he plays the komungo accompaniment parts to the Kagok art-song-suite, but with extra embellishment so they stand alone. cd5 is mostly about his idiosyncratic sanjo.

He is accompanied by a drummer on all 5 CDs, which is basically a given for 'solo' performance in Korean traditional music.

This music demands extreme patience and close listening. It is not particularly melodic, not at all busy, and much of the pitch-bending action takes place at the edge of the notes' relatively quick decay. But there is a universe of timbral, ornamental, and rhythmic sophistication here. I've rarely been reminded quite so strongly of the contemporary/experimental scenes some of you are into.

I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional music of Korea shares with Iran, but not with China or Japan, a conception of repertoire as 'handful of lengthy suites subject to semi-improvisational variation', which I attribute to Korea and Iran retaining a more feudal mode of production into the early 20th century than any of their neighbors. Potentially a big win for my whole thing of pseudo-Marxist musicology!

In article <bc734391-3bbf-4165-bc37-3f819bc37fefn@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional
>music of Korea ....

I've now heard various instances of Korean traditional performers
joining Western free improv players to good effect. Not really the
case with Chinese or Japanese musicians (in that those of the latter
who get involved in improv hadn't been performing traditional music,
but already e.g. piano or guitar or sax...).

Your comments are interesting, and hopefully I'll have some time
soon to listen to that material.

On Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 13:12:06 UTC+10, cheregi wrote:
> Recently I've been digging underneath the sanjo ('scattered melodies') and shamanic-ritual recordings that are usually presented as 'what korean traditional music is'. It turns out sanjo started as a sort of pseudo-folkloric latter-day addition to a more prestigious 'pungnyu' repertoire ('wind and stream') performed by both upper-class amateurs and middle-class professionals.
>
> Im Sok-yun (1908-1975) was an amateur player of komungo (sort of like chinese qin but with tall frets under only the middle three strings) who recorded several hours of music near the end of his life at KBS recording studios.
>
> https://iha.go.kr/service/search_all_list.nihc?media_=audio&contentid_=12123
> Pyongjo hoesang (cd1) and Yominrak (cd2+3) are both long suites which start agonizingly slow and accelerate minutely.
>
> https://iha.go.kr/service/search_all_list.nihc?media_=audio&contentid_=12124
> On cd4, he plays the komungo accompaniment parts to the Kagok art-song-suite, but with extra embellishment so they stand alone. cd5 is mostly about his idiosyncratic sanjo.
>
> He is accompanied by a drummer on all 5 CDs, which is basically a given for 'solo' performance in Korean traditional music.
>
> This music demands extreme patience and close listening. It is not particularly melodic, not at all busy, and much of the pitch-bending action takes place at the edge of the notes' relatively quick decay. But there is a universe of timbral, ornamental, and rhythmic sophistication here. I've rarely been reminded quite so strongly of the contemporary/experimental scenes some of you are into.
>
> I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional music of Korea shares with Iran, but not with China or Japan, a conception of repertoire as 'handful of lengthy suites subject to semi-improvisational variation', which I attribute to Korea and Iran retaining a more feudal mode of production into the early 20th century than any of their neighbors. Potentially a big win for my whole thing of pseudo-Marxist musicology!

Interesting. Could you try explaining what Marxist musicology is? I'm perplexed. Thx.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 11:31:56 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> I've now heard various instances of Korean traditional performers
> joining Western free improv players to good effect.

Do you have examples off the top of your head? I definitely see how this could have great results...

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 12:20:16 AM UTC-4, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> Interesting. Could you try explaining what Marxist musicology is? I'm perplexed. Thx.

Well, I say 'pseudo' because I'm not very scholarly about it and don't trust myself actually to have a firm grasp on the nuances of Marxian economics. But broadly speaking I'm talking about understanding history through the lens of successive modes of production (focusing especially on distinction between feudal and capitalist modes, but with a lot more complexity than that reductive binary), and then trying to understand 'surface-level' or 'purely aesthetic' characteristics of different traditional musics as somehow 'downstream' of, or conditioned by, the specific characteristics of the mode of production of the music's societal context.

For a more scholarly example of Marxist ethnomusicology I recommend for example Regula Burckhardt Qureshi who is a great source on the social life of Hindustani music.

In article <d7c8288d-43a5-4a00-b12c-cae336dc268cn@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Do you have examples off the top of your head?

_Megasonic Chapel_ from Henry Kaiser & _Macrocosm_ from Joe Morris,
but _Treatises on Trans-Traditional Aesthetics_ from Sandeep Bhagwati
is also an example with more Asian traditions.

On Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 14:45:46 UTC+10, cheregi wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 12:20:16 AM UTC-4, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > Interesting. Could you try explaining what Marxist musicology is? I'm perplexed. Thx.
> Well, I say 'pseudo' because I'm not very scholarly about it and don't trust myself actually to have a firm grasp on the nuances of Marxian economics. But broadly speaking I'm talking about understanding history through the lens of successive modes of production (focusing especially on distinction between feudal and capitalist modes, but with a lot more complexity than that reductive binary), and then trying to understand 'surface-level' or 'purely aesthetic' characteristics of different traditional musics as somehow 'downstream' of, or conditioned by, the specific characteristics of the mode of production of the music's societal context.
>
> For a more scholarly example of Marxist ethnomusicology I recommend for example Regula Burckhardt Qureshi who is a great source on the social life of Hindustani music.

Many thanks. Way over my head as it stands however.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 8:12:06 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> Recently I've been digging underneath the sanjo ('scattered melodies') and shamanic-ritual recordings that are usually presented as 'what korean traditional music is'. It turns out sanjo started as a sort of pseudo-folkloric latter-day addition to a more prestigious 'pungnyu' repertoire ('wind and stream') performed by both upper-class amateurs and middle-class professionals.
>
> Im Sok-yun (1908-1975) was an amateur player of komungo (sort of like chinese qin but with tall frets under only the middle three strings) who recorded several hours of music near the end of his life at KBS recording studios.
>
> https://iha.go.kr/service/search_all_list.nihc?media_=audio&contentid_=12123
> Pyongjo hoesang (cd1) and Yominrak (cd2+3) are both long suites which start agonizingly slow and accelerate minutely.
>
> https://iha.go.kr/service/search_all_list.nihc?media_=audio&contentid_=12124
> On cd4, he plays the komungo accompaniment parts to the Kagok art-song-suite, but with extra embellishment so they stand alone. cd5 is mostly about his idiosyncratic sanjo.
>
> He is accompanied by a drummer on all 5 CDs, which is basically a given for 'solo' performance in Korean traditional music.
>
> This music demands extreme patience and close listening. It is not particularly melodic, not at all busy, and much of the pitch-bending action takes place at the edge of the notes' relatively quick decay. But there is a universe of timbral, ornamental, and rhythmic sophistication here. I've rarely been reminded quite so strongly of the contemporary/experimental scenes some of you are into.
>
> I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional music of Korea shares with Iran, but not with China or Japan, a conception of repertoire as 'handful of lengthy suites subject to semi-improvisational variation', which I attribute to Korea and Iran retaining a more feudal mode of production into the early 20th century than any of their neighbors. Potentially a big win for my whole thing of pseudo-Marxist musicology!

This 2013 program may be of interest:

https://ceas.yale.edu/events/asian-sound-revolution

On Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 07:26:09 UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 8:12:06 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > Recently I've been digging underneath the sanjo ('scattered melodies') and shamanic-ritual recordings that are usually presented as 'what korean traditional music is'. It turns out sanjo started as a sort of pseudo-folkloric latter-day addition to a more prestigious 'pungnyu' repertoire ('wind and stream') performed by both upper-class amateurs and middle-class professionals. >>

Looked up "traditional Korean music" on YT and initially came across a number of vile crossover tracks e.g. "Relaxing Music #37: Traditional Korean Music, Meditation Music, Stress Relief"...

I then came to the flute type music which seems like Japanese shakuhachi music. Will have to go on exploring.....

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:17:18 AM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 07:26:09 UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 8:12:06 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > > Recently I've been digging underneath the sanjo ('scattered melodies') and shamanic-ritual recordings that are usually presented as 'what korean traditional music is'. It turns out sanjo started as a sort of pseudo-folkloric latter-day addition to a more prestigious 'pungnyu' repertoire ('wind and stream') performed by both upper-class amateurs and middle-class professionals. >>
> Looked up "traditional Korean music" on YT and initially came across a number of vile crossover tracks e.g. "Relaxing Music #37: Traditional Korean Music, Meditation Music, Stress Relief"...
>
> I then came to the flute type music which seems like Japanese shakuhachi music. Will have to go on exploring.....

Ah yes naturally. It's especially funny to see Korean style subsumed into 'relaxing traditional music' because in my experience much of it is pretty much the opposite of relaxing.

The Korean equivalent to the Shakuhachi, but with a completely distinct repertoire, is the Tanso (or Danso). But the Daegeum/Taegum is the more popular flute nowadays. I love the sound of both.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 1:28:19 AM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <d7c8288d-43a5-4a00...@googlegroups.com>,
> cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Do you have examples off the top of your head?
> _Megasonic Chapel_ from Henry Kaiser & _Macrocosm_ from Joe Morris,
> but _Treatises on Trans-Traditional Aesthetics_ from Sandeep Bhagwati
> is also an example with more Asian traditions.

I gave each of these about ten minutes and will return at least to 'Macrocosm'. I surprised myself by appreciating the introduction of scratchy-textury haegum against 12tet piano in Megasonic Chapel, and even though the Bhagwati got a little too cinematic for me I thought the dhrupad references were interestingly deployed. But Microcosm has that hyperactive-irrational guitarist thing which I find compelling and kayagum is of course a perfect foil.. It makes me wonder if Vietnamese chamber music might be another strong pairing with free improv - https://petitesplanetes.bandcamp.com/track/3-54 (sadly this discography runs much shallower than the other 'confucian-state' traditions...)

In article <29f9fe6c-5077-4095-ba8c-4f1df7e4fe61n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>But Microcosm has that hyperactive-irrational guitarist thing which
>I find compelling and kayagum is of course a perfect foil.

Morris is hugely prolific. (So is Kaiser, but his stuff never quite
resonates with me. Still _Megasonic Chapel_ was a groundbreaking
album.)

>It makes me wonder if Vietnamese chamber music might be another
>strong pairing with free improv -

The "sound" of it would seem to fit (with what Morris calls the
"paradoxical" style of European improv), although I can't recall
an example....

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 8:12:06 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional music of Korea shares with Iran, but not with China or Japan, a conception of repertoire as 'handful of lengthy suites subject to semi-improvisational variation', which I attribute to Korea and Iran retaining a more feudal mode of production into the early 20th century than any of their neighbors. Potentially a big win for my whole thing of pseudo-Marxist musicology!

At the onset of the 20th century, Japan was a modernizing military power, as evidenced by the Russo-Japanese war.

But the feudal period in Japan had lasted hundreds of years and still exerted a strong influence on traditional music forms.

You may find tough sledding trying to formulate your musicology "thing" as theory and as history!

In article <8da08e2e-f801-4fb6-8944-d05b02549161n@googlegroups.com>,
number_six <cyberiade@hotmail.com> wrote:
>You may find tough sledding trying to formulate your musicology
>"thing" as theory and as history!

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, so who knows.... But I'd
probably be more inclined to see those correspondences in modes of
religious ecstasy, shamanic in the Korean case (i.e. shading almost
toward North America...). I tried to articulate some of this around
the Iranian discussion, as it happens, but didn't really manage....

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 4:28:23 PM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <8da08e2e-f801-4fb6...@googlegroups.com>,
> number_six <cybe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >You may find tough sledding trying to formulate your musicology
> >"thing" as theory and as history!
> I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, so who knows.... But I'd
> probably be more inclined to see those correspondences in modes of
> religious ecstasy, shamanic in the Korean case (i.e. shading almost
> toward North America...). I tried to articulate some of this around
> the Iranian discussion, as it happens, but didn't really manage....

There are a couple of Korean traditional items in my cd queue...will try to keep that in mind when they come up for a listen.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:36:37 PM UTC-4, number_six wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 8:12:06 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional music of Korea shares with Iran, but not with China or Japan, a conception of repertoire as 'handful of lengthy suites subject to semi-improvisational variation', which I attribute to Korea and Iran retaining a more feudal mode of production into the early 20th century than any of their neighbors. Potentially a big win for my whole thing of pseudo-Marxist musicology!
> At the onset of the 20th century, Japan was a modernizing military power, as evidenced by the Russo-Japanese war.
>
> But the feudal period in Japan had lasted hundreds of years and still exerted a strong influence on traditional music forms.
>
> You may find tough sledding trying to formulate your musicology "thing" as theory and as history!

Over the course of the Edo period the locus of wealth, power and prestige in Japan shifted almost completely from hereditary land-owning aristocrats to upwardly-mobile urban merchants organized into guilds (this is a huge part of why the Japanese state was capable of transforming itself into one capable of winning the Russo-Japanese War in the first place). Looking at the official titles of heads of state is not a good way to assess a question about modes of production.

Virtually all music for koto and shamisen, by the way, in other words the main body of traditional art music of Japan, was originally composed by and for these upstart merchants and their derided-as-vulgar/crass tastes. Aristocratic style is evident only in SOME parts of shakuhachi repertoire, and in a handful of koto pieces used today mainly for training.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 7:28:23 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <8da08e2e-f801-4fb6...@googlegroups.com>,
> number_six <cybe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >You may find tough sledding trying to formulate your musicology
> >"thing" as theory and as history!
> I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, so who knows.... But I'd
> probably be more inclined to see those correspondences in modes of
> religious ecstasy, shamanic in the Korean case (i.e. shading almost
> toward North America...). I tried to articulate some of this around
> the Iranian discussion, as it happens, but didn't really manage....

I probably trampled over what you were getting at in the other thread with my own conclusions!

Do you mean corresponding modes of religious ecstasy to modes of production, or corresponding modes of religious ecstasy to musical aesthetics? Both seem like fruitful areas for investigation, but the latter formulation still, to me, cries out for the addition of 'material conditions' as something conditioning BOTH modes of religious ecstasy and musical aesthetics.

In article <85220c3f-28d5-4831-95ab-9453f172e389n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Do you mean corresponding modes of religious ecstasy to modes of
>production, or corresponding modes of religious ecstasy to musical
>aesthetics? Both seem like fruitful areas for investigation, but
>the latter formulation still, to me, cries out for the addition
>of 'material conditions' as something conditioning BOTH modes of
>religious ecstasy and musical aesthetics.

Yes, I was specifically suggesting the correspondence between
religion & music, although obviously that can raise other questions.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 10:52:35 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:36:37 PM UTC-4, number_six wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 8:12:06 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > > I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional music of Korea shares with Iran, but not with China or Japan, a conception of repertoire as 'handful of lengthy suites subject to semi-improvisational variation', which I attribute to Korea and Iran retaining a more feudal mode of production into the early 20th century than any of their neighbors. Potentially a big win for my whole thing of pseudo-Marxist musicology!
> > At the onset of the 20th century, Japan was a modernizing military power, as evidenced by the Russo-Japanese war.
> >
> > But the feudal period in Japan had lasted hundreds of years and still exerted a strong influence on traditional music forms.
> >
> > You may find tough sledding trying to formulate your musicology "thing" as theory and as history!
> Over the course of the Edo period the locus of wealth, power and prestige in Japan shifted almost completely from hereditary land-owning aristocrats to upwardly-mobile urban merchants organized into guilds (this is a huge part of why the Japanese state was capable of transforming itself into one capable of winning the Russo-Japanese War in the first place). Looking at the official titles of heads of state is not a good way to assess a question about modes of production.
>
> Virtually all music for koto and shamisen, by the way, in other words the main body of traditional art music of Japan, was originally composed by and for these upstart merchants and their derided-as-vulgar/crass tastes. Aristocratic style is evident only in SOME parts of shakuhachi repertoire, and in a handful of koto pieces used today mainly for training.

Socially above the upstart merchants, wasn't that the samurai who had Noh theater and music? And above everybody else was the royalty who had gagaku?

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 3:05:24 AM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 10:52:35 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:36:37 PM UTC-4, number_six wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 8:12:06 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > > > I've been excited to discover that the highest-prestige traditional music of Korea shares with Iran, but not with China or Japan, a conception of repertoire as 'handful of lengthy suites subject to semi-improvisational variation', which I attribute to Korea and Iran retaining a more feudal mode of production into the early 20th century than any of their neighbors. Potentially a big win for my whole thing of pseudo-Marxist musicology!
> > > At the onset of the 20th century, Japan was a modernizing military power, as evidenced by the Russo-Japanese war.
> > >
> > > But the feudal period in Japan had lasted hundreds of years and still exerted a strong influence on traditional music forms.
> > >
> > > You may find tough sledding trying to formulate your musicology "thing" as theory and as history!
> > Over the course of the Edo period the locus of wealth, power and prestige in Japan shifted almost completely from hereditary land-owning aristocrats to upwardly-mobile urban merchants organized into guilds (this is a huge part of why the Japanese state was capable of transforming itself into one capable of winning the Russo-Japanese War in the first place). Looking at the official titles of heads of state is not a good way to assess a question about modes of production.
> >
> > Virtually all music for koto and shamisen, by the way, in other words the main body of traditional art music of Japan, was originally composed by and for these upstart merchants and their derided-as-vulgar/crass tastes. Aristocratic style is evident only in SOME parts of shakuhachi repertoire, and in a handful of koto pieces used today mainly for training.
> Socially above the upstart merchants, wasn't that the samurai who had Noh theater and music? And above everybody else was the royalty who had gagaku?

I did think about both of these 'exceptions' while typing my response, so I appreciate you bringing them up. But I think calling Noh an 'art music repertoire' is a bit of a stretch, and anyway since it's outside my usual scope of research I don't know much about its performance history. Gagaku to my knowledge WAS a prestige art music in medieval Japan but by the Edo period (after a couple extinctions or near-extinctions and then revivals...) was more like 'ritual sound' trotted out for semi-public Buddhist rites or, later, state-legitimacy rites. so it is kind of like, is shomyo (Japanese buddhist chanting according to modal rules) an art-music? I like listening to it, but I would say no, not really...

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:24:34 AM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <85220c3f-28d5-4831...@googlegroups.com>,
> cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Do you mean corresponding modes of religious ecstasy to modes of
> >production, or corresponding modes of religious ecstasy to musical
> >aesthetics? Both seem like fruitful areas for investigation, but
> >the latter formulation still, to me, cries out for the addition
> >of 'material conditions' as something conditioning BOTH modes of
> >religious ecstasy and musical aesthetics.
> Yes, I was specifically suggesting the correspondence between
> religion & music, although obviously that can raise other questions.

This makes me think of - the main modes in Korean music tend to have maybe like 2, 3, 4 non-ornamental tones, which sounds a lot more like Siberian or North American modal systems than anything going on in China or Japan...

In article <bc734391-3bbf-4165-bc37-3f819bc37fefn@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Im Sok-yun (1908-1975) was an amateur player of komungo (sort of
>like chinese qin but with tall frets under only the middle three
>strings) who recorded several hours of music near the end of his
>life at KBS recording studios.
>https://iha.go.kr/service/search_all_list.nihc?media_=audio&contentid_=12123
>Pyongjo hoesang (cd1) and Yominrak (cd2+3) are both long suites which
>start agonizingly slow and accelerate minutely.

I had a chance to listen to these first 3 volumes today. If
encountering it randomly, I'd've thought it was sanjo....

I've been enjoying this music, though. Generally finding it a much
more appealing way to spend a couple of hours than, say, with
overwrought Romantic piano music....

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 9:56:50 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> I had a chance to listen to these first 3 volumes today. If
> encountering it randomly, I'd've thought it was sanjo....

This was probably true for me to a couple days ago and may still be. Now I think I can tell which types of ornaments only appear in sanjo. I'm tempted to rehash the khyal/dhrupad distinction where small surface-level differences lead to a hugely different feeling of 'what the music does' or 'what the point is', but that may be overblown (in both cases). I'm glad you are enjoying it! This whole series of related recordings is up online https://iha..go.kr/service/music/folder_music_list.nihc?content_type=GT05000001 , and a couple I have downloaded and done anglophone metadata for.

In article <618c57a1-13c5-40dd-bfdc-46faa3bc2b94n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm glad you are enjoying it! This whole series of related recordings
>is up online

Yes, thanks for the find. I've long enjoyed sanjo, and didn't
realize about the older form -- since I'd really only heard what
has appeared on international labels. I'm also increasingly convinced
there are significant correspondences with North American music.

In article <29f9fe6c-5077-4095-ba8c-4f1df7e4fe61n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>It makes me wonder if Vietnamese chamber music ....

With the other examples of contemporary improv, maybe I should
also add this from Southwest China:

https://theresawong.bandcamp.com/album/crossing-a-river-by-rope

(There are many different peoples in Southern China & Southeast
Asia....)

The "Western" players there, Theresa Wong (cello) & John McCowen
(clarinet) continue to do other interesting things in music, not
related to China, first Wong & more recently McCowen too. The sax
player there (Lao Dan) has other Western releases, but the other
two are local musicians, one playing electric guitar....