Not seen any coverage here of this, the notoriously aggressive John Eliot
Gardiner punching a soloist at a festival in France and then
as a result pulling out of conducting the Trojans at the Proms

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/aug/24/john-eliot-gardiner-pulls-out-of-bbc-proms-after-reports-he-punched-bass-singer

Robert
--
Robert Marshall twitter: @rajm

On Sunday, 27 August 2023 at 12:40:08 UTC+1, Robert Marshall wrote:
> Not seen any coverage here of this, the notoriously aggressive John Eliot
> Gardiner punching a soloist at a festival in France and then
> as a result pulling out of conducting the Trojans at the Proms
> > https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/aug/24/john-eliot-gardiner-pulls-out-of-bbc-proms-after-reports-he-punched-bass-singer
> > Robert

The poor guy lost the plot completely and is consulting his doctor. Mind - he is 80 years old and it was apparently very hot in France....

It's the post-lockdown apocalyps of public behavior.

First there were reports of 'Barbie' audiences screaming at each other and being removed from the theatre.
And now it's an 80-year old conductor / Bach philosopher beating up a singer young enough to be his grandson.

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 12:40:08 PM UTC+1, Robert Marshall wrote:
> Not seen any coverage here of this, the notoriously aggressive John Eliot
> Gardiner punching a soloist at a festival in France and then
> as a result pulling out of conducting the Trojans at the Proms
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/aug/24/john-eliot-gardiner-pulls-out-of-bbc-proms-after-reports-he-punched-bass-singer
>
> Robert
> --
> Robert Marshall twitter: @rajm

He has previous form for physical violence - ask the LSO trumpeter! Nothing to do with heat or medication. He withdrew from all subsequent performances of the tour.

In many orchestras the trombones are behind plexiglass screens so as to prevent hearing damage in the oboes (to no avail; they only play louder).

Perhaps Jeggie (pace Oscar) should be screened off by such screens, too, so as to avoid him punching orchestra members.

One would think eighty years would be a fine age to retire with a shred of dignity....

He> In many orchestras the trombones are behind plexiglass screens so as to
He> prevent hearing damage in the oboes (to no avail; they only play louder).

I'm suprised they don't use earplugs or something.

He> Perhaps Jeggie (pace Oscar) should be screened off by such screens, too,
He> so as to avoid him punching orchestra members.

Partition each person into a little cell and put a mic in each.

-----------------------------------
user is generated from /dev/urandom

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/replace-charismatic-conductors-with-technocrats-and-classical-music-will-die/

Here's an article, or rather column, on the Jeggy matter, by a guy who's assuming bad manners and a beastly character are requirements for great music.

Op maandag 28 augustus 2023 om 12:48:01 UTC+2 schreef Herman:
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/replace-charismatic-conductors-with-technocrats-and-classical-music-will-die/
>
> Here's an article, or rather column, on the Jeggy matter, by a guy who's assuming bad manners and a beastly character are requirements for great music.

Some think that the same applies to requirements for nice newsgroups ;-)

It's not a perfect fit for the situation, but upon reading the news, a
line from "The Importance of Being Earnest" popped into my head:

"The General was essentially a man of peace, except in his domestic life."

On 8/28/23 5:47 AM, Herman wrote:

> https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/replace-charismatic-conductors-with-technocrats-and-classical-music-will-die/
>
> Here's an article, or rather column, on the Jeggy matter, by a guy who's assuming bad manners and a beastly character are requirements for great music.

A truly great conductor delegates the slapping of musicians to
underlings, effectively communicating how to perform the slap in just
the way he has envisioned.

In article <ucirkr$1qvtm$1@dont-email.me>,
Tatonik <justan@example.invalid> wrote:
>A truly great conductor delegates the slapping of musicians to
>underlings, effectively communicating how to perform the slap in
>just the way he has envisioned.

Communicating largely verbally, that is, while a great composer
would focus on communicating how to perform the slap in writing.

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 8:48:01 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/replace-charismatic-conductors-with-technocrats-and-classical-music-will-die/
>
> Here's an article, or rather column, on the Jeggy matter, by a guy who's assuming bad manners and a beastly character are requirements for great music.

Or does he mean that we should put up with bad manners and a beastly character if the result is great music? Here is his conclusion:

"In the Times, Richard Morrison notes that ‘young conductors today tend to be well-schooled, well-mannered technocrats.’ Imagine thinking that was progress? There were already too many ‘well-mannered technocrats’ when I started concert-going in the noughties. Routine concerts by jobbing conductors who had their careers solely because they were good at ingratiating themselves with the players – often by letting them slack off – made me wonder whether I enjoyed classical music at all. Luckily we all had the incredible Technicolor recordings by the infamous mid-century monsters to retreat to (recordings that rather undermine the facile idea doing the rounds on Twitter that ‘being a good conductor means being good with people, and in order to get the best from musicians, you must treat them right’. Tell that to Fritz Reiner.)

The question is who on earth would shell out 200-plus quid to see a ‘well-mannered technocrat’ conduct Elektra or The Rite? I want a beast on the podium conducting this rep. Not a musical version of Rishi Sunak.

Replace charismatic leadership with technocratic good manners and the whole edifice comes tumbling down. Fine by me, but just beware of what this means. Fewer recordings, fewer concerts, fewer subsidies, fewer jobs. We return to an 18th century world where the musician is a servant. Lower fees, more precarity, less respect. In some ways we are already there."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

In article <c7d6128f-1957-474f-8997-5a3a5da4c8a9n@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Clarke <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:
>"Luckily we all had the incredible Technicolor recordings by the
>infamous mid-century monsters to retreat to ...."

Well I don't relate to this guy one iota. I could totally do without
hearing anything from this so-called "retreat" ever again. I prefer
more recent readings.

The Spectator article is misleading in contrasting "beasts" with "well-schooled, well-mannered technocrats". It isn't a requirement of a musically effective conductor to be a beast, it just happens that some were. Others weren't. And are all well-schooled, well-mannered technocrats poor conductors? How about Boulez for instance?

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 10:54:10 PM UTC+2, Andy Evans wrote:
> The Spectator article is misleading in contrasting "beasts" with "well-schooled, well-mannered technocrats". It isn't a requirement of a musically effective conductor to be a beast, it just happens that some were. Others weren't. And are all well-schooled, well-mannered technocrats poor conductors? How about Boulez for instance?

of course it's a demagogic contrast.

On Aug 28, 2023 at 4:46:57 PM EDT, "Andrew Clarke" <andrewclarke437@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 8:48:01 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
>> https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/replace-charismatic-conductors-with-technocrats-and-classical-music-will-die/
>>
>> Here's an article, or rather column, on the Jeggy matter, by a guy who's
>> assuming bad manners and a beastly character are requirements for great
>> music.
>
> Or does he mean that we should put up with bad manners and a beastly character
> if the result is great music? Here is his conclusion:
>
> "In the Times, Richard Morrison notes that ‘young conductors today tend to be
> well-schooled, well-mannered technocrats.’ Imagine thinking that was progress?
> There were already too many ‘well-mannered technocrats’ when I started
> concert-going in the noughties. Routine concerts by jobbing conductors who had
> their careers solely because they were good at ingratiating themselves with
> the players – often by letting them slack off – made me wonder whether I
> enjoyed classical music at all. Luckily we all had the incredible Technicolor
> recordings by the infamous mid-century monsters to retreat to (recordings that
> rather undermine the facile idea doing the rounds on Twitter that ‘being a
> good conductor means being good with people, and in order to get the best from
> musicians, you must treat them right’. Tell that to Fritz Reiner.)
>
> The question is who on earth would shell out 200-plus quid to see a
> ‘well-mannered technocrat’ conduct Elektra or The Rite? I want a beast on the
> podium conducting this rep. Not a musical version of Rishi Sunak.
>
> Replace charismatic leadership with technocratic good manners and the whole
> edifice comes tumbling down. Fine by me, but just beware of what this means.
> Fewer recordings, fewer concerts, fewer subsidies, fewer jobs. We return to an
> 18th century world where the musician is a servant. Lower fees, more
> precarity, less respect. In some ways we are already there."
>
>

In lieu of applause, the Proms management requests the audience to instead
substitute the noise of a single hand, slapping.

-Owen

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 12:09:12 PM, herman wrote:
>
> In many orchestras the trombones are behind plexiglass screens so as to prevent hearing damage in the oboes (to no avail; they only play louder).
>
> Perhaps Jeggie (pace Oscar) should be screened off by such screens, too, so as to avoid him punching orchestra members.

Yes, that _is_ his name.

> One would think eighty years would be a fine age to retire with a shred of dignity....

Was working Metallica at SoFi Stadium in Inglewood, Calif., the past 7 days.. Surprisingly excellent. The principals are now aged 60.

On Tuesday, 29 August 2023 at 06:47:01 UTC+10, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 8:48:01 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> > https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/replace-charismatic-conductors-with-technocrats-and-classical-music-will-die/
> >
> > Here's an article, or rather column, on the Jeggy matter, by a guy who's assuming bad manners and a beastly character are requirements for great music.
> Or does he mean that we should put up with bad manners and a beastly character if the result is great music? Here is his conclusion:
>
> "In the Times, Richard Morrison notes that ‘young conductors today tend to be well-schooled, well-mannered technocrats.’ Imagine thinking that was progress? There were already too many ‘well-mannered technocrats’ when I started concert-going in the noughties. Routine concerts by jobbing conductors who had their careers solely because they were good at ingratiating themselves with the players – often by letting them slack off – made me wonder whether I enjoyed classical music at all. Luckily we all had the incredible Technicolor recordings by the infamous mid-century monsters to retreat to (recordings that rather undermine the facile idea doing the rounds on Twitter that ‘being a good conductor means being good with people, and in order to get the best from musicians, you must treat them right’. Tell that to Fritz Reiner.)
>
> The question is who on earth would shell out 200-plus quid to see a ‘well-mannered technocrat’ conduct Elektra or The Rite? I want a beast on the podium conducting this rep. Not a musical version of Rishi Sunak.
>
> Replace charismatic leadership with technocratic good manners and the whole edifice comes tumbling down. Fine by me, but just beware of what this means. Fewer recordings, fewer concerts, fewer subsidies, fewer jobs. We return to an 18th century world where the musician is a servant. Lower fees, more precarity, less respect. In some ways we are already there."
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I still don't see why any conductor cannot be a maestro mensch without having to slap a member of the orchestra. The only recourse, naturally, is for these people to get slapped back. And harder into the bargain.
It doesn't require only two possibilities of conduct and skill to be a conductor. Jeg has of course been found guilty before. Needs anger management. A 5 minute session by others with a piece of 4x2 can be quicker however.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 7:48:16 AM UTC+2, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

> Needs anger management.
>
Jeggy's eighty years old. For people of that age psychiatrists don't even pick up the phone. At that age folks are set in their ways and incorrigible, especially a specimen like Jeggy who is otherwise celebrated and successful.

He just needs to retire and terrorize his family, dogs or chickens.

On Tuesday, 29 August 2023 at 07:33:48 UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 7:48:16 AM UTC+2, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Needs anger management.
> >
> Jeggy's eighty years old. For people of that age psychiatrists don't even pick up the phone. At that age folks are set in their ways and incorrigible, especially a specimen like Jeggy who is otherwise celebrated and successful. He just needs to retire and terrorize his family, dogs or chickens.

Ha ha!

Actually all the musicians I've talked to that played with him pronounced it "Jiggy"

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 6:51:48 AM UTC+10, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <c7d6128f-1957-474f...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >"Luckily we all had the incredible Technicolor recordings by the
> >infamous mid-century monsters to retreat to ...."
>
> Well I don't relate to this guy one iota. I could totally do without
> hearing anything from this so-called "retreat" ever again. I prefer
> more recent readings.

It is interesting to compare the outrage brought down on Ji/eggy's head with a certain nostalgia for the days of Fritz Reiner and George Szell , and we remember that mental cruelty can be much more severe in its consequences than physical cruelty.

On the other hand, the author of the article, Igor Toronyi-Lalic, is an admirer of Stockhausen and Berio and is actively involved in the promotion of contemporary music:

< https://theartsdesk.com/users/igortoronyilalic >

I added a comment to his Spectator article, which will come as no surprise to those who have read my comments here:

"We now have the situation where orchestra management feels that it must pay an absolute fortune to a conductor, not to mention a bevy of guest conductors, to the extent that many famous orchestras with famously large endowments, are now losing money hand over fist. Given that attendances are down compared to pre-Covid seasons, and that local wealth in places like Baltimore and Philadelphia tends to donate money to rather more urgent causes than the local "symphony", the problem is not going to go away. Nor can the Big Beast orchestras rely on big recording contracts any more.
Maybe the future lies with people like Jos van Immerseel or F-X Roth or John Wilson who are capable of creating new ensembles and either shedding new light on old repertoire or exploring less familiar material. They also seem to get recorded ... "

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

In article <bfa21eea-6eb7-491e-ba53-aea5682541ccn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Clarke <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:
>On the other hand, the author of the article, Igor Toronyi-Lalic,
>is an admirer of Stockhausen and Berio and is actively involved
>in the promotion of contemporary music:

Surprising....

>I added a comment to his Spectator article, which will come as no
>surprise to those who have read my comments here:

Well your comment seems reasonable.

Frankly, if classical music had less reputation for authoritarianism,
more young people would probably be interested. "Beasts" might
bring in the celebrity gossip crowd, but that's not music.

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 6:13:35 PM UTC+2, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <bfa21eea-6eb7-491e...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On the other hand, the author of the article, Igor Toronyi-Lalic,
> >is an admirer of Stockhausen and Berio and is actively involved
> >in the promotion of contemporary music:
> Surprising....
> >
So why does this sound as if he is pushing moonshine alcohol or something?

I briefly checked his bio at the Spectator and it looks like he is a critic and writes about what happens to get staged. If you're a critic and you write a positive review of a performance of a piece of music recently composed, you're not really "actively promoting" it. You're just saying you liked the concert.

In article <0c69201e-ff4f-4349-a115-2c6d1197dc76n@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 6:13:35 PM UTC+2, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>> In article <bfa21eea-6eb7-491e...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On the other hand, the author of the article, Igor Toronyi-Lalic,
>> >is an admirer of Stockhausen and Berio and is actively involved
>> >in the promotion of contemporary music:
>> Surprising....
>So why does this sound as if he is pushing moonshine alcohol or
>something?

His views sound very conservative, so it surprised me that he might
listen to this later music at all! But maybe he simply likes to
provoke.

On 8/29/2023 8:15 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 6:51:48 AM UTC+10, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>> In article <c7d6128f-1957-474f...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Luckily we all had the incredible Technicolor recordings by the
>>> infamous mid-century monsters to retreat to ...."
>>
>> Well I don't relate to this guy one iota. I could totally do without
>> hearing anything from this so-called "retreat" ever again. I prefer
>> more recent readings.
>
> It is interesting to compare the outrage brought down on Ji/eggy's head with a certain nostalgia for the days of Fritz Reiner and George Szell , and we remember that mental cruelty can be much more severe in its consequences than physical cruelty.
>
> On the other hand, the author of the article, Igor Toronyi-Lalic, is an admirer of Stockhausen and Berio and is actively involved in the promotion of contemporary music:
>
> < https://theartsdesk.com/users/igortoronyilalic >
>
> I added a comment to his Spectator article, which will come as no surprise to those who have read my comments here:
>
> "We now have the situation where orchestra management feels that it must pay an absolute fortune to a conductor, not to mention a bevy of guest conductors, to the extent that many famous orchestras with famously large endowments, are now losing money hand over fist. Given that attendances are down compared to pre-Covid seasons, and that local wealth in places like Baltimore and Philadelphia tends to donate money to rather more urgent causes than the local "symphony", the problem is not going to go away. Nor can the Big Beast orchestras rely on big recording contracts any more.
> Maybe the future lies with people like Jos van Immerseel or F-X Roth or John Wilson who are capable of creating new ensembles and either shedding new light on old repertoire or exploring less familiar material. They also seem to get recorded ... "
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

If paying big bucks for a conductor will bankrupt an orchestra why would they continue to slit their own throats? Something doesn't make sense. One answer is that management feels a star conductor will increase private donations (or even local government (assuming there is such a thing) and at least partially offset the cost. If not, you will see a decline in conductor salaries and orchestras shutting down. IT just has to be. It seems to me the root problem is a secular decline in demand for classical music. In Lenny's day, everyone at least knew who he was. Today, most young people into their 20's probably never heard of him. Unless there is a massive increase in public (i.e, government), it's hard to see how every decent sized city will afford to have an orchestra.