have i already made a thread on this stuff? i forget. the old art-music of istanbul is a system of hundreds of microtonally-distinct modes (makams) expressed both as non-metric improvisation and as a huge repertoire of orally-transmitted compositions, but unlike, say, south asian raga, here modulation is very frequent and often up to the discretion of the performer. therefore there is a kind of derridean semotic play both in the movement of makams over historical time and over the course of each performance.

among the many small differences between this and the more internationally-recognized egyptian maqam system, the most important from my perspective are that egyptian music is less concerned with modulation, and that egyptian musicians tend towards virtuosic runs whereas the oldschool ottoman style is more about shaping and ornamenting fewer distinct notes (reminding me sometimes of qin music).

the tanbur, the iconic long-neck lute of ottoman art music, has a bunch of drone strings and also a thin second bowl inside the externally-visible bowl, for a really specific overtone-rich sound. Necdet Yaşar (1930-2017) is probably for westerners the most iconic tanburi of the 20th century:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giaTxmbL0YU

but i'm much more excited by the 3 CDs and one cassette recorded by his older contemporary Izzettin Ökte (1910-1981), who i think plays in a much more fluid and ornamented style, especially in the compositions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qPWKFS4Vbc&list=PLBL4bTzOq4dHLLSD0SEQabPGc6wur7Q_i&index=27

anyway they're both reckoning with the anti-pleasure bourgeois-modernist reforms of Mesud Cemil (1902-1963), mirroring parallel developments just prior in the west...

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:22:09 PM UTC-4, cheregi wrote:
> have i already made a thread on this stuff? i forget. the old art-music of istanbul is a system of hundreds of microtonally-distinct modes (makams) expressed both as non-metric improvisation and as a huge repertoire of orally-transmitted compositions, but unlike, say, south asian raga, here modulation is very frequent and often up to the discretion of the performer. therefore there is a kind of derridean semotic play both in the movement of makams over historical time and over the course of each performance.
>
> among the many small differences between this and the more internationally-recognized egyptian maqam system, the most important from my perspective are that egyptian music is less concerned with modulation, and that egyptian musicians tend towards virtuosic runs whereas the oldschool ottoman style is more about shaping and ornamenting fewer distinct notes (reminding me sometimes of qin music).
>
> the tanbur, the iconic long-neck lute of ottoman art music, has a bunch of drone strings and also a thin second bowl inside the externally-visible bowl, for a really specific overtone-rich sound. Necdet Yaşar (1930-2017) is probably for westerners the most iconic tanburi of the 20th century:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giaTxmbL0YU
>
> but i'm much more excited by the 3 CDs and one cassette recorded by his older contemporary Izzettin Ökte (1910-1981), who i think plays in a much more fluid and ornamented style, especially in the compositions.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qPWKFS4Vbc&list=PLBL4bTzOq4dHLLSD0SEQabPGc6wur7Q_i&index=27
>
> anyway they're both reckoning with the anti-pleasure bourgeois-modernist reforms of Mesud Cemil (1902-1963), mirroring parallel developments just prior in the west...

*(1910-1991)

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:23:07 PM UTC-4, cheregi wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:22:09 PM UTC-4, cheregi wrote:
> > have i already made a thread on this stuff? i forget. the old art-music of istanbul is a system of hundreds of microtonally-distinct modes (makams) expressed both as non-metric improvisation and as a huge repertoire of orally-transmitted compositions, but unlike, say, south asian raga, here modulation is very frequent and often up to the discretion of the performer. therefore there is a kind of derridean semotic play both in the movement of makams over historical time and over the course of each performance.
> >
> > among the many small differences between this and the more internationally-recognized egyptian maqam system, the most important from my perspective are that egyptian music is less concerned with modulation, and that egyptian musicians tend towards virtuosic runs whereas the oldschool ottoman style is more about shaping and ornamenting fewer distinct notes (reminding me sometimes of qin music).
> >
> > the tanbur, the iconic long-neck lute of ottoman art music, has a bunch of drone strings and also a thin second bowl inside the externally-visible bowl, for a really specific overtone-rich sound. Necdet Yaşar (1930-2017) is probably for westerners the most iconic tanburi of the 20th century:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giaTxmbL0YU
> >
> > but i'm much more excited by the 3 CDs and one cassette recorded by his older contemporary Izzettin Ökte (1910-1981), who i think plays in a much more fluid and ornamented style, especially in the compositions.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qPWKFS4Vbc&list=PLBL4bTzOq4dHLLSD0SEQabPGc6wur7Q_i&index=27
> >
> > anyway they're both reckoning with the anti-pleasure bourgeois-modernist reforms of Mesud Cemil (1902-1963), mirroring parallel developments just prior in the west...
> *(1910-1991)

*semiotic

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 8:22:09 AM UTC+8, cheregi wrote:
> have i already made a thread on this stuff? i forget. the old art-music of istanbul is a system of hundreds of microtonally-distinct modes (makams) expressed both as non-metric improvisation and as a huge repertoire of orally-transmitted compositions, but unlike, say, south asian raga, here modulation is very frequent and often up to the discretion of the performer. therefore there is a kind of derridean semotic play both in the movement of makams over historical time and over the course of each performance.
>
> among the many small differences between this and the more internationally-recognized egyptian maqam system, the most important from my perspective are that egyptian music is less concerned with modulation, and that egyptian musicians tend towards virtuosic runs whereas the oldschool ottoman style is more about shaping and ornamenting fewer distinct notes (reminding me sometimes of qin music).
>
> the tanbur, the iconic long-neck lute of ottoman art music, has a bunch of drone strings and also a thin second bowl inside the externally-visible bowl, for a really specific overtone-rich sound. Necdet Yaşar (1930-2017) is probably for westerners the most iconic tanburi of the 20th century:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giaTxmbL0YU
>
> but i'm much more excited by the 3 CDs and one cassette recorded by his older contemporary Izzettin Ökte (1910-1981), who i think plays in a much more fluid and ornamented style, especially in the compositions.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qPWKFS4Vbc&list=PLBL4bTzOq4dHLLSD0SEQabPGc6wur7Q_i&index=27
>
> anyway they're both reckoning with the anti-pleasure bourgeois-modernist reforms of Mesud Cemil (1902-1963), mirroring parallel developments just prior in the west...

Interesting comment about Mesud Cemil.

You might like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-GMa-MMuIs

After this album release, Savall of course ran with the concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxN8q143j4

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 8:50:52 PM UTC-4, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> You might like this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-GMa-MMuIs
>
> After this album release, Savall of course ran with the concept:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxN8q143j4

Really bizarre selection of repertoire on that first CD...

What do you think of these recordings?

In all honesty I find contemporary 'Turkish Conservatory style' (as highlighted on both these releases) really phenomenally bland. It seems to me that if one accepts this playing as canonically 'historical'/'preserved', then one is sure to come to the conclusion that Ottoman Classical Music plainly lacks the depth and sophistication of Western Classical Music.

Here is a great overview of Mesut Cemil's complicated role in this state of affairs: http://goldenhorn.com/records/ghp013.html - I'll highlight "He was criticized by conservatives but did not concede from his clean, plain (as opposed to ornate) style" and "His interpretations of scored classical instrumental works with 2 or 3 other instruments are beautifully melodic, romantic and free from unnecessary ornamentation" though that doesn't even touch on his influence as a choral director.

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 2:13:04 AM UTC+8, cheregi wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 8:50:52 PM UTC-4, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > You might like this:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-GMa-MMuIs
> >
> > After this album release, Savall of course ran with the concept:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxN8q143j4
> Really bizarre selection of repertoire on that first CD...
>
> What do you think of these recordings?

I'm too uninformed to have an opinion, and am still learning the expressive contours of makamlar. I'm liable to adopt your opinions..
> In all honesty I find contemporary 'Turkish Conservatory style' (as highlighted on both these releases) really phenomenally bland. It seems to me that if one accepts this playing as canonically 'historical'/'preserved', then one is sure to come to the conclusion that Ottoman Classical Music plainly lacks the depth and sophistication of Western Classical Music.

Are you referring to the Turkish performers or to the continental ensembles... or both? The HIP ensembles offer speculative reconstructions, novel reconstructions I think, not canonized "preserved" styles (which of course is the opposite of what "HIP" connoted decades ago). Or were you perhaps referring to the playing by the Turkish musicians? I know nothing about the conservatory style.
> Here is a great overview of Mesut Cemil's complicated role in this state of affairs: http://goldenhorn.com/records/ghp013.html - I'll highlight "He was criticized by conservatives but did not concede from his clean, plain (as opposed to ornate) style" and "His interpretations of scored classical instrumental works with 2 or 3 other instruments are beautifully melodic, romantic and free from unnecessary ornamentation" though that doesn't even touch on his influence as a choral director.

Thanks for the link. Maybe in a few years I'll have better informed ears to understand these politics :-)

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 12:34:59 PM UTC+8, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 2:13:04 AM UTC+8, cheregi wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 8:50:52 PM UTC-4, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > You might like this:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-GMa-MMuIs
> > >
> > > After this album release, Savall of course ran with the concept:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxN8q143j4
> > Really bizarre selection of repertoire on that first CD...
> >
> > What do you think of these recordings?
> I'm too uninformed to have an opinion, and am still learning the expressive contours of makamlar. I'm liable to adopt your opinions..
> > In all honesty I find contemporary 'Turkish Conservatory style' (as highlighted on both these releases) really phenomenally bland. It seems to me that if one accepts this playing as canonically 'historical'/'preserved', then one is sure to come to the conclusion that Ottoman Classical Music plainly lacks the depth and sophistication of Western Classical Music.
> Are you referring to the Turkish performers or to the continental ensembles.. or both? The HIP ensembles offer speculative reconstructions, novel reconstructions I think, not canonized "preserved" styles (which of course is the opposite of what "HIP" connoted decades ago). Or were you perhaps referring to the playing by the Turkish musicians? I know nothing about the conservatory style.
> > Here is a great overview of Mesut Cemil's complicated role in this state of affairs: http://goldenhorn.com/records/ghp013.html - I'll highlight "He was criticized by conservatives but did not concede from his clean, plain (as opposed to ornate) style" and "His interpretations of scored classical instrumental works with 2 or 3 other instruments are beautifully melodic, romantic and free from unnecessary ornamentation" though that doesn't even touch on his influence as a choral director.
> Thanks for the link. Maybe in a few years I'll have better informed ears to understand these politics :-)

i wrote up my thoughts and information i've accumulated on ottoman makam music here: https://rateyourmusic.com/list/cd_r0ms/reconsidering-turkish-classical-music/ i hope it's useful for someone!

In article <1ae14910-19af-4ce7-bc17-3e005d4fe1f2n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>i wrote up my thoughts and information i've accumulated on ottoman makam
>music here:
>https://rateyourmusic.com/list/cd_r0ms/reconsidering-turkish-classical-music/
>i hope it's useful for someone!

I read the intro with interest, thanks, but haven't dived into the
music yet. I got right up to where you describe the discography
as of wide stylistic scope & difficult to get a clear handle on....
Sounds right. :-)

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 3:17:16 AM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <1ae14910-19af-4ce7...@googlegroups.com>,
> cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >i wrote up my thoughts and information i've accumulated on ottoman makam
> >music here:
> >https://rateyourmusic.com/list/cd_r0ms/reconsidering-turkish-classical-music/
> >i hope it's useful for someone!
> I read the intro with interest, thanks, but haven't dived into the
> music yet. I got right up to where you describe the discography
> as of wide stylistic scope & difficult to get a clear handle on....
> Sounds right. :-)

yes! it's all so chaotic, it makes me miss writing about dastgah recordings....