I have several recordings of the Bruckner 7th including Karajan, Wand, Giulini, and various Celibidaches. Listening to the 1st and 2nd movements is a joy of course, but the last movement always eludes me. Its themes are clearly based off of the opening melody of the first movement, but emotionally the music as a whole never seems to grab me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a recording that includes a "revelatory" reading of this elusive movement in particular, one that brings out what is ostensibly great in it?

On 9/14/23 1:35 AM, steve...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have several recordings of the Bruckner 7th including Karajan, Wand, Giulini, and various Celibidaches. Listening to the 1st and 2nd movements is a joy of course, but the last movement always eludes me. Its themes are clearly based off of the opening melody of the first movement, but emotionally the music as a whole never seems to grab me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a recording that includes a "revelatory" reading of this elusive movement in particular, one that brings out what is ostensibly great in it?

The last movement of the 7th is definitely episodic and meandering - but
so is most of his
work! The versions you mention are fine, but for something a little
different I can suggest a live performance by Furtwangler with the BPO
for its drama and total conviction.

Or for something with individual phrasing Janowski with the Suisse
Romande is quite interesting.

My preference is for the Rosbaud recording - but I'm no Bruckner expert...

On Friday, 15 September 2023 at 12:50:03 UTC+10, Notsure01 wrote:
> On 9/14/23 1:35 AM, steve...gmail.com wrote:
> > I have several recordings of the Bruckner 7th including Karajan, Wand, Giulini, and various Celibidaches. Listening to the 1st and 2nd movements is a joy of course, but the last movement always eludes me. Its themes are clearly based off of the opening melody of the first movement, but emotionally the music as a whole never seems to grab me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a recording that includes a "revelatory" reading of this elusive movement in particular, one that brings out what is ostensibly great in it?
> The last movement of the 7th is definitely episodic and meandering - but
> so is most of his
> work! The versions you mention are fine, but for something a little
> different I can suggest a live performance by Furtwangler with the BPO
> for its drama and total conviction.
>
> Or for something with individual phrasing Janowski with the Suisse
> Romande is quite interesting.
>
> My preference is for the Rosbaud recording - but I'm no Bruckner expert....

Rosbaud SW RSO is exceptionally good for the Bruckner 7th.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 12:35:55 AM UTC-5, steve...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have several recordings of the Bruckner 7th including Karajan, Wand, Giulini, and various Celibidaches. Listening to the 1st and 2nd movements is a joy of course, but the last movement always eludes me. Its themes are clearly based off of the opening melody of the first movement, but emotionally the music as a whole never seems to grab me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a recording that includes a "revelatory" reading of this elusive movement in particular, one that brings out what is ostensibly great in it?

I think maybe you are asking for the wrong thing. This is a movement that moves away from grandiosity and instead sounds more like Dvorak or Schubert, despite some very Brucknerian figurations within the movement. You've named at least three conductors whose manners here are a bad match for the music. Karajan and Celibidache are both generally looking for something epic and powerful- Karajan through extreme dynamics and drama, Celi through breadth. Both tendencies are counterproductive here. Giulini also tends to be broad, and his italiante phrasing is not helpful in this symphony- I say that considering I find his 8 and 9 almost peerless.

The "right" fourth movement is perky, fresh, and does not dawdle. For that reason, the ones I would reach for include Blomstedt/Dresden and Haitink/Concertgebouw ('78 on Philips). I also recall liking Wand/NDR from '92 on RCA.. Each of these has a fourth movement between 12:08 and 12:26. Perhaps that is the Wand you have, so maybe there's nothing new here.

Jochum/Dresden also gets mentioned as a great Bruckner 7. In sampling it, I find a bit more rhetorical freedom than I like, and the slow down/speed up approach does not win me over, much as I think Jochum is indispensable and always worth a listen.

You've seen multiple recs here for Rosbaud, who lands the last movement in just over 11:30. This is by almost everyone's measure a very special Bruckner 7. His recent SWR box collects some great Bruckner, but the version of this December 1957 recording in the box is in mono. The same performance on VOX is better known and in stereo. Even better than VOX is the release in an oddball collection of Bruckner recordings put out on ZYX. You can get a used copy for under $10. The ZYX team got their hands on a master tape that was even better than what VOX had access to (no idea how, but the sound improvement is easy to spot), so what you have is the best-sounding release of this recording that had yet been offered up to that point- the sound is quite excellent stereo.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E1DHFO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm listening to the Rosbaud now. He just keeps things moving. A great conductor!

On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 5:21:06 PM UTC-7, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 12:35:55 AM UTC-5, steve...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I have several recordings of the Bruckner 7th including Karajan, Wand, Giulini, and various Celibidaches. Listening to the 1st and 2nd movements is a joy of course, but the last movement always eludes me. Its themes are clearly based off of the opening melody of the first movement, but emotionally the music as a whole never seems to grab me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a recording that includes a "revelatory" reading of this elusive movement in particular, one that brings out what is ostensibly great in it?
> I think maybe you are asking for the wrong thing. This is a movement that moves away from grandiosity and instead sounds more like Dvorak or Schubert, despite some very Brucknerian figurations within the movement. You've named at least three conductors whose manners here are a bad match for the music. Karajan and Celibidache are both generally looking for something epic and powerful- Karajan through extreme dynamics and drama, Celi through breadth. Both tendencies are counterproductive here. Giulini also tends to be broad, and his italiante phrasing is not helpful in this symphony- I say that considering I find his 8 and 9 almost peerless.
>
> The "right" fourth movement is perky, fresh, and does not dawdle. For that reason, the ones I would reach for include Blomstedt/Dresden and Haitink/Concertgebouw ('78 on Philips). I also recall liking Wand/NDR from '92 on RCA. Each of these has a fourth movement between 12:08 and 12:26. Perhaps that is the Wand you have, so maybe there's nothing new here.
>
> Jochum/Dresden also gets mentioned as a great Bruckner 7. In sampling it, I find a bit more rhetorical freedom than I like, and the slow down/speed up approach does not win me over, much as I think Jochum is indispensable and always worth a listen.
>
> You've seen multiple recs here for Rosbaud, who lands the last movement in just over 11:30. This is by almost everyone's measure a very special Bruckner 7. His recent SWR box collects some great Bruckner, but the version of this December 1957 recording in the box is in mono. The same performance on VOX is better known and in stereo. Even better than VOX is the release in an oddball collection of Bruckner recordings put out on ZYX. You can get a used copy for under $10. The ZYX team got their hands on a master tape that was even better than what VOX had access to (no idea how, but the sound improvement is easy to spot), so what you have is the best-sounding release of this recording that had yet been offered up to that point- the sound is quite excellent stereo.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E1DHFO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> I'm listening to the Rosbaud now. He just keeps things moving. A great conductor!

Thank you, yes this is helpful. I hear the finales of his other symphonies (the 4th, 5th, and 8th for example) as doing the epic summing up of the previous movements and I suppose I was wanting to hear something similar in the finale of the 7th. It makes me wonder about the balance of the entire 7th symphony, though, having 2 huge, somewhat slow movements, a scherzo, and then ending with a finale that "doesn't dawdle" (as you know it's marked "Bewegt, doch nicht schnell").
I ought to try the Rosbaud recording and thanks for the Amazon link.
This makes me wonder also about other conductors who take Bruckner in a more Schubertian, fleeting style? I guess Harnoncourt would be one.

On 9/16/23 1:20 AM, steve...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 5:21:06 PM UTC-7, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:

>>
>> The "right" fourth movement is perky, fresh, and does not dawdle. always worth a listen.
>>
>> You've seen multiple recs here for Rosbaud, who lands the last movement in just over 11:30
>

I see that a download of the Rosbaud is apparently available for just a
few dollars on Presto in good sound:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9434558--classical-selection-bruckner-symphony-no-7?link_token=undefined

Thanks Steve for raising this issue and to mswd for the thoughtful reply!

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:17:05 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>
>
> This is without question the finest complete
> Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
>
I see. Question are not allowed in danworld.
I listened to Haitink's last performance of this oft-performed (by him) symphony,
his valedictory concert. As it was originally broadcast I wasn't too hot about it.
My listening and watching again can be seen as asking myself question, and this time the answer was that I thought it was a beautiful, well-sprung and finely calibrated performance.
It's not my idea to look for the one and only performance of any given piece, that's something insecure people do. They want to be safe. I don't see any need for this in as innocuous a thing as music.

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 11:36:48 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:17:05 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > This is without question the finest complete
> > Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
>
> I see. Question are not allowed in danworld.

Questions are welcome as long as one has
question coupons to trade in ;-)

> I listened to Haitink's last performance of
> this oft-performed (by him) symphony, his
> valedictory concert.

Good for you.

> As it was originally broadcast I wasn't too
> hot about it.

No heels and not long enough hair ?!?

> My listening and watching again can be seen
> as asking myself question, and this time the
> answer was that I thought it was a beautiful,
> well-sprung and finely calibrated performance.

Good for you.

> It's not my idea to look for the one and only
> performance of any given piece, that's something
> insecure people do. They want to be safe. I don't
> see any need for this in as innocuous a thing as
> music.

Like it or not, the OP asked for a pointer to a
"revelatory performance". You excised that
part of the conversation to throw sand into
the eyes and ears of the audience.

dk

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:54:19 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> Like it or not, the OP asked for a pointer to a
> "revelatory performance". You excised that
> part of the conversation to throw sand into
> the eyes and ears of the audience.
>
Mr big time Off Topic is playing moderator again.

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 12:01:35 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:54:19 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > Like it or not, the OP asked for a pointer to a
> > "revelatory performance". You excised that
> > part of the conversation to throw sand into
> > the eyes and ears of the audience.
>
> Mr big time Off Topic is playing moderator again.

Our full time self appointed political corectness
officer is acting up and taking himself seriously
again.

dk

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 11:36:48 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>
> My listening and watching again can
> be seen as asking myself question,
> and this time the answer was that
> I thought it was a beautiful, well-
> sprung and finely calibrated
> performance.

It is not obvious to some of us why
you keep asking yourself questions
when the answer is always Haitink.

Please enlighten us. Danke schön.

dk

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 9:35:20 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 11:36:48 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> >
> > My listening and watching again can
> > be seen as asking myself question,
> > and this time the answer was that
> > I thought it was a beautiful, well-
> > sprung and finely calibrated
> > performance.
> It is not obvious to some of us why
> you keep asking yourself questions
> when the answer is always Haitink.

You are illiterate, too full of yourself to be abe to digest non-self information.
I don't find all my answers in Haitink, that's something you're making up.

So I guess we're going to have to deal with tons of disengenuous, nasty postings again, content free, only meant to stir up maximum shit.
>

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 2:54:57 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 9:35:20 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 11:36:48 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> > >
> > > My listening and watching again can
> > > be seen as asking myself question,
> > > and this time the answer was that
> > > I thought it was a beautiful, well-
> > > sprung and finely calibrated
> > > performance.
> >
> > It is not obvious to some of us why
> > you keep asking yourself questions
> > when the answer is always Haitink.
>
> You are illiterate, too full of yourself to
> be able to digest non-self information.
> I don't find all my answers in Haitink,
> that's something you're making up.

You cannot even read. I did not write
you find all your answers "in" Haitink.

I wrote Haitink was the answer to all
your questions. Different statements.

One is beginning to wonder if you can
even read musical scores, Mr. Fiddler.

dk

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 1:17:05 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> One may also check Eliahu Inbal's complete
> Bruckner symphony set:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZj82r6sudoUEToxtI04F9mim4IlnuGQQ
>
> This is without question the finest complete
> Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
>
> dk

Seriously??? There, I questioned it.

These sound better than I remember. I can see that he tends to prefer tempi a bit slower than average, somethign I don't think adds much in 0. But sounds good overall. Also, the 3 in the cycle is an "original version", whichever that is.

I think Inbal is underrated, so I will have to refamiliarize myself with these.

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 1:36:48 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:17:05 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is without question the finest complete
> > Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
> >
> I see. Question are not allowed in danworld.

Herman, why not be brave and just ask a question? It makes me sick to see anyone waste any time here talking about Dan instead of music.

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 5:33:00 AM UTC-7, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 1:17:05 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > One may also check Eliahu Inbal's complete
> > Bruckner symphony set:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZj82r6sudoUEToxtI04F9mim4IlnuGQQ
> >
> > This is without question the finest complete
> > Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
>
> Seriously??? There, I questioned it.

You are most welcome. It is the only
complete Bruckner set that uses the
urtext. I am not interested in editions
that try to "improve" the composer's
manuscript.

> These sound better than I remember. I
> can see that he tends to prefer tempi a
> bit slower than average, somethign I
> don't think adds much in 0.

Tempi cannot be compared across
different editions.

> But sounds good overall. Also, the 3 in
> the cycle is an "original version", whichever
> that is.

The entire cycle is "original", in the sense
of using the manuscript rather than one
of the posthumous editions.

> I think Inbal is underrated, so I will have
> to refamiliarize myself with these.

indeed he is.

dk

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 5:37:52 AM UTC-7, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 1:36:48 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> > On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:17:05 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > This is without question the finest complete
> > > Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
> > >
> > I see. Question are not allowed in danworld.
>
> Herman, why not be brave and just ask a question?
> It makes me sick to see anyone waste any time here
> talking about Dan instead of music.

This is Herman's way of talking about himself. Did
you notice he always lectures and pontificates? It
doesn't help: the Dutch only got one pope, and he
did not last long. They will never get another one
no matter how hard Herman tries. ;-)

dk

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 5:42:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 5:33:00 AM UTC-7, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 1:17:05 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > One may also check Eliahu Inbal's complete
> > > Bruckner symphony set:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZj82r6sudoUEToxtI04F9mim4IlnuGQQ
> > >
> > > This is without question the finest complete
> > > Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
> >
> > Seriously??? There, I questioned it.
>
> You are most welcome. It is the only
> complete Bruckner set that uses the
> urtext. I am not interested in editions
> that try to "improve" the composer's
> manuscript.
>
> > These sound better than I remember. I
> > can see that he tends to prefer tempi a
> > bit slower than average, somethign I
> > don't think adds much in 0.
>
> Tempi cannot be compared across
> different editions.
>
> > But sounds good overall. Also, the 3 in
> > the cycle is an "original version", whichever
> > that is.
>
> The entire cycle is "original", in the sense
> of using the manuscript rather than one
> of the posthumous editions.
>
> > I think Inbal is underrated, so I will have
> > to refamiliarize myself with these.
>
> indeed he is.

Here are all the Bruckner symphony
editions in a single playlist which
obviously draws from a number of
differents sets:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1IXBSY4jc2s4cURaAXXanHvp2v9qgpgu

Enjoy!

dk

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:

> Tempi cannot be compared across
> different editions.

I take your point, but obviously, they can. I can refer to roughly identical passages passages and say, "well, if there are different tempi instructions, I think one is better than the other". (Do I need to refer to a score to find out whether a tempi is clearly marked or if what I hear is the choice of the conductor? Some would say yes- me, I don't care.) You may say "that is an incorrect method", to which my response is that my level of worship will never be so great that I don't see value in occasionally breaking rules or executing a technical error. I'm going to judge what works, respecting the fact that what works in my brain has inherently limited value for others.

> > I think Inbal is underrated, so I will have
> > to refamiliarize myself with these.
> indeed he is.

I recall Inbal being touted by - who was it? The fellow who some later thought was Barrington-Coupe. Alan Watkins? AW always had interesting opinions, whomever he was.
> dk

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 2:37:52 PM UTC+2, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 1:36:48 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> > On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:17:05 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > This is without question the finest complete
> > > Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
> > >
> > I see. Question are not allowed in danworld.
> Herman, why not be brave and just ask a question?

This was what I wrote:

"My listening and watching <Haitink's valedictory performance> again can be seen as asking myself a question, and this time the answer was that I thought it was a beautiful, well-sprung and finely calibrated performance."

So a question was asked.

What I objected to was the idea that there should be all time "no question" best performances. I don't believe that's a realistic or even desirable pursuit. In Bruckner it's impossible, given the many different editions. And lastly, I don't see the point of even discussing Bruckner with someone who doesn't even like Bruckner.

On 9/18/2023 10:28 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 2:37:52 PM UTC+2, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 1:36:48 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
>>> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 8:17:05 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is without question the finest complete
>>>> Bruckner symphony set on record so far.
>>>>
>>> I see. Question are not allowed in danworld.
>> Herman, why not be brave and just ask a question?
>
> This was what I wrote:
>
> "My listening and watching <Haitink's valedictory performance> again can be seen as asking myself a question, and this time the answer was that I thought it was a beautiful, well-sprung and finely calibrated performance."
>
> So a question was asked.
>
> What I objected to was the idea that there should be all time "no question" best performances. I don't believe that's a realistic or even desirable pursuit. In Bruckner it's impossible, given the many different editions. And lastly, I don't see the point of even discussing Bruckner with someone who doesn't even like Bruckner.

Can Dan prevent you or anyone from asking questions? No, of course not. When a person says something is best with "no question" he means that in his opinion it is best and that he has no doubt it is best. It does not prevent, nor is it necessarily intended to prevent questioning of that opinion (as if it could).

You are caught up (again) in your inability to understand any statement (at least in English) as not being intended to be taken literally. Irony, sarcasm, double entendre, exaggeration to make a point and the like, and even humor seem to be beyond your sensibilities.

Dan's return had nothing to do with you. He didn't address you; I suspect you weren't in his thoughts. But you had renew the old hostility. You could have ignored him.

In article <19068864-9852-49a4-a3af-9d20657d49d9n@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What I objected to was the idea that there should be all time "no
>question" best performances.

Of course that's nonsense. (Unless there are only a few performances,
I suppose.)

In article <b68daf94-fb8c-4d9b-a8c2-aa5d17240cc0n@googlegroups.com>,
mswd...@gmail.com <mswdesign@gmail.com> wrote:
>Herman, why not be brave and just ask a question? It makes me
>sick to see anyone waste any time here talking about Dan instead
>of music.

Don't bother with questions, just ignore him. Yes, he's irritating,
but that's what trolling is usually about. Don't be trolled.

I really much prefer Bruckner's Sixth to the more famous Seventh.

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 9:35:55 AM UTC+4, steve...@gmail..com wrote:
> I have several recordings of the Bruckner 7th including Karajan, Wand, Giulini, and various Celibidaches. Listening to the 1st and 2nd movements is a joy of course, but the last movement always eludes me. Its themes are clearly based off of the opening melody of the first movement, but emotionally the music as a whole never seems to grab me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a recording that includes a "revelatory" reading of this elusive movement in particular, one that brings out what is ostensibly great in it?

There is no way that the last movement can have the comparable weight to the first two. Try to view the 3rd and 4th movements as a finale of the tripartite structure.