https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts
Nope. This is a BB like no other

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BtCg6fCHU&list=OLAK5uy_nkc95Y6bjZOI_obRVcPPK1ybnFfFAQYW0&ab_channel=TobiasKoch-Topic

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:33:55 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts
> Nope. This is a BB like no other
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BtCg6fCHU&list=OLAK5uy_nkc95Y6bjZOI_obRVcPPK1ybnFfFAQYW0&ab_channel=TobiasKoch-Topic

No. This is a BB like no other:

https://youtu.be/mb4USKAanGI

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:33:55 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts .
heard Volodos in CH at his debut recital. check out my friend Michel Block on you tube very beautiful

AB

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 7:33:55 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts
> Nope. This is a BB like no other
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BtCg6fCHU&list=OLAK5uy_nkc95Y6bjZOI_obRVcPPK1ybnFfFAQYW0&ab_channel=TobiasKoch-Topic

"Like no other" in the worst possible way.
Perhaps you could explain what do you
like in Tobias Koch. He can barely play
the piano, his sound is dry and his
"intepretation" is metronomic.

BDSM perhaps?

dk

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 9:12:21 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> No. This is a BB like no other:
>
> https://youtu.be/mb4USKAanGI

He follows the same blueprint as
Richter, and is clearly influenced
by him. The sound is obviously
better in Volodos' recording.

Bunte Blätter was a staple of
Richter's repertoireand there
are many live recordings of
live performances spanning
almost 3 decades, as well as
a couple of studio recordings.
Take your pick.

dk

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:19:16 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:33:55 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts .
> heard Volodos in CH at his debut recital. check out my friend Michel Block on you tube very beautiful
>
>
> AB

Thank you, love the Block!
(studio, EMI, 1977)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6BLHgpHUeM

Also:
Youri Egorov (live, March 7, 1987):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX8rc8MhKY8
(there's also a 1986 EMI studio recording)

Op maandag 12 juni 2023 om 20:19:16 UTC+2 schreef AB:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:33:55 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts .
> heard Volodos in CH at his debut recital. check out my friend Michel Block on you tube very beautiful

Indeed. Michel Block is very beautiful. Thanks!

Henk.

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 3:56:32 PM UTC-7, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
>
> Thank you, love the Block! (studio, EMI, 1977)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6BLHgpHUeM

Nope. One clearly hears the metronome.

Too static. Not enough flow. Not enough
expression. Conventional and superficial.

Not even close to Richter or Volodos.

dk

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:02:00 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 7:33:55 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts
> > Nope. This is a BB like no other
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BtCg6fCHU&list=OLAK5uy_nkc95Y6bjZOI_obRVcPPK1ybnFfFAQYW0&ab_channel=TobiasKoch-Topic
> "Like no other" in the worst possible way.
> Perhaps you could explain what do you
> like in Tobias Koch. He can barely play
> the piano, his sound is dry and his
> "intepretation" is metronomic.
>
> BDSM perhaps?
>
> dk

I like Koch because it is full of inner life. Compare Richter and and Koch in the piece labelled “ziemlich langsam” , the 4th, and you’ll see what I mean. Richter misses half the music!

(I haven’t bothered with that YouTube by the way - I just checked Richter on an old BBC Legends recording.)

Haven’t heard any of the others recently enough to remember, though I do remember liking Block enough to be keen to hear his EMI LP of the music. The Block on CD has more inner life than Richter. Has anyone transferred the LP? If so, will they share it with me?!

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:56:32 PM UTC+1, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:19:16 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:33:55 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts .
> > heard Volodos in CH at his debut recital. check out my friend Michel Block on you tube very beautiful
> >
> >
> > AB
> Thank you, love the Block!
> (studio, EMI, 1977)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6BLHgpHUeM
>
> Also:
> Youri Egorov (live, March 7, 1987):
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX8rc8MhKY8
> (there's also a 1986 EMI studio recording)

Oh, thanks for the Block - do you know if the Gesänge und Frühe has been transferred.

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:31:44 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:02:00 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 7:33:55 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts
> > > Nope. This is a BB like no other
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BtCg6fCHU&list=OLAK5uy_nkc95Y6bjZOI_obRVcPPK1ybnFfFAQYW0&ab_channel=TobiasKoch-Topic
> > "Like no other" in the worst possible way.
> >
> > Perhaps you could explain what do you
> > like in Tobias Koch. He can barely play
> > the piano, his sound is dry and his
> > "intepretation" is metronomic.
> >
> > BDSM perhaps?
>
> I like Koch because it is full of inner life.

How does one detect and measure "inner life"?
Do you use a stethoscope? Or merely listen to
the ticking of a metronome>

> Compare Richter and and Koch in the piece
> labelled “ziemlich langsam” , the 4th, and
> you’ll see what I mean.

Why don't you provide precise timemarks?
Do you only

> Richter misses half the music!

How did you come up with that measure?
Do you use a caliper? Can you explain in
clearer words what half does Richter
miss? Is the upper half, or the lower
half? Is the right half or the left half?
Is the front half or the back half?

> (I haven’t bothered with that YouTube by
> the way - I just checked Richter on an old
> BBC Legends recording.)

Here is that BBC recording: https://youtu.be/H7MpavxOqv0

Ziemlich langsam is at 3:39. What is your
complaint, precisely?

Here is Tobias Koch: https://youtu.be/g5T9BRNjas8

Can you point out the "inner life", precisely?
All I hear is a tiimd metronome stomping
on a non-piano.

> Haven’t heard any of the others recently
> enough to remember, though I do remember
> liking Block enough to be keen to hear his EMI
> LP of the music. The Block on CD has more inner
> life than Richter. Has anyone transferred the LP?
> If so, will they share it with me?!

Here is Michel Block's recording:

https://youtu.be/P6BLHgpHUeM

Do your homework.

dk

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:55:06 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:31:44 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:02:00 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 7:33:55 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:46:31 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > https://youtu.be/pzl4l7Zgzts
> > > > Nope. This is a BB like no other
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BtCg6fCHU&list=OLAK5uy_nkc95Y6bjZOI_obRVcPPK1ybnFfFAQYW0&ab_channel=TobiasKoch-Topic
> > > "Like no other" in the worst possible way.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you could explain what do you
> > > like in Tobias Koch. He can barely play
> > > the piano, his sound is dry and his
> > > "intepretation" is metronomic.
> > >
> > > BDSM perhaps?
> >
> > I like Koch because it is full of inner life.
> How does one detect and measure "inner life"?
> Do you use a stethoscope? Or merely listen to
> the ticking of a metronome>
> > Compare Richter and and Koch in the piece
> > labelled “ziemlich langsam” , the 4th, and
> > you’ll see what I mean.
> Why don't you provide precise timemarks?
> Do you only
> > Richter misses half the music!
> How did you come up with that measure?
> Do you use a caliper? Can you explain in
> clearer words what half does Richter
> miss? Is the upper half, or the lower
> half? Is the right half or the left half?
> Is the front half or the back half?
> > (I haven’t bothered with that YouTube by
> > the way - I just checked Richter on an old
> > BBC Legends recording.)
> Here is that BBC recording: https://youtu.be/H7MpavxOqv0
>
> Ziemlich langsam is at 3:39. What is your
> complaint, precisely?
>
> Here is Tobias Koch: https://youtu.be/g5T9BRNjas8
>
> Can you point out the "inner life", precisely?
> All I hear is a tiimd metronome stomping
> on a non-piano.
>
> > Haven’t heard any of the others recently
> > enough to remember, though I do remember
> > liking Block enough to be keen to hear his EMI
> > LP of the music. The Block on CD has more inner
> > life than Richter. Has anyone transferred the LP?
> > If so, will they share it with me?!
>
> Here is Michel Block's recording:
>
> https://youtu.be/P6BLHgpHUeM

And here is Block's Gesange der Fruhe:

https://youtu.be/PYlI5bQycHQ

dk

In article <0fbcc9cd-4b17-49ee-86a3-01af4da08188n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>I like Koch because it is full of inner life.

I like this description -- not necessarily of the Schumann, which
I don't know, but of his Schubert. It might not resonate with
others, but it's communicative for me.

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:58:22 PM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <0fbcc9cd-4b17-49ee...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I like Koch because it is full of inner life.
>
> I like this description -- not necessarily of
> the Schumann, which I don't know, but of
> his Schubert. It might not resonate with
> others, but it's communicative for me.

"Inner life" is meaningless gobbledygook.

How does one measure, or even detect
"inner life" in a piano performance? Use
a stethoscope? FitBit? Apple Watch?

The bottom line is that Koch is a very
mediocred fortepianist -- inner life or
not.

dk

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:56:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> And here is Block's Gesange der Fruhe:
>
> https://youtu.be/PYlI5bQycHQ
>

And here is Sokolov:

https://youtu.be/7_mMB3VZUmM

I like some sections, but overall it is
a mixed bag. Some sections sound
too overwrought or metronomic to
my ears. It sounds learned, studied,
practiced and overthought.

More than any other pianist I heard,
Sokolov often manages to exhibits
both the best and the worst of his
art in a single piece. Sometimes
even in the same bar.

dk

On Tuesday, June 13, 2023 at 3:09:07 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:56:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > And here is Block's Gesange der Fruhe:
> >
> > https://youtu.be/PYlI5bQycHQ
> >
> And here is Sokolov:
>
> https://youtu.be/7_mMB3VZUmM
>
> I like some sections, but overall it is
> a mixed bag. Some sections sound
> too overwrought or metronomic to
> my ears. It sounds learned, studied,
> practiced and overthought.
>
> More than any other pianist I heard,
> Sokolov often manages to exhibits
> both the best and the worst of his
> art in a single piece. Sometimes
> even in the same bar.
>
> dk

Dan,

After you post constantly with either just a link, or the most cursory description/praise of something, why are you harping on people for disagreeing with you, asking them to put specific time stamps where they hear whatever you were nitpicking about, and criticizing their opinions with petty semantic carping in your usual arrogant manner? if you’re so damned smart, why don’t you follow your own advice for a change. Might be a nice variation from your usual one word dismissals. If I had a dime for every time your one-word knee-jerk moniker of "metronomic" was slapped onto something that was not in any way metronomic, I’d be a millionaire. You are a killer of discourse, and too arrogant to debate with anyone as an equal, and on the level. It’s a shame because you obviously listen to a lot and could offer something in value if you got off your freaking high horse.

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 7:45:01 AM UTC+2, vhorowitz wrote:
>
>
> If I had a dime for every time your one-word knee-jerk moniker of "metronomic" was slapped onto something that was not in any way metronomic, I’d be a millionaire. You are a killer of discourse,

This may clue you in to the obvious fact that DK is deaf.
Or fulltime drunk.
He doesn't know what he's talking about.

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 10:45:01 PM UTC-7, vhorowitz wrote:
>
> If I had a dime for every time your one-word
> knee-jerk moniker of "metronomic" was slapped
> onto something that was not in any way metronomic,

According to whose ears? "Metronomic" is in the
ears of the listener. Your ears don't work the same
way as mine -- if they work at all.

> I’d be a millionaire.

No, you wouldn't. There aren't enough musicians
in the universe for anyone to collect that many
dimes.

> You are a killer of discourse,

There is no "discourse" in this thread, at least not
in the sense the term is typically used. Please go
back and read again every post in this thread and
point out the "discourse".

Mandryka said "Nope. This is a BB like no other".

John Gavin replied: "No. This is a BB like no other".

Then Mandryka said "I like Koch because it is full
of inner life" -- whatever that means.

... and so on.

You call that "discourse" ?!?

> and too arrogant to debate with anyone as an
> equal, and on the level. It’s a shame because

I am the humblest person. I even bow in front
of my cats!

> you obviously listen to a lot and could offer
> something in value if you got off your freaking
> high horse.

I offer a lot more than you realize. Just read the
archives of this ng since 1990. However I don't
offer anything in an easy to digest, flattering
format like Melmoth, John Gavin and others
who try to please (or at least not to upset)
everyone else. You act irritated because I
question and challenge not only the
substance of classical music and of
music performance, but also the
pedantic, pretentious traditional ways
music is described and discussed.

If I didn't use terms like metronomic and
sewing machine, most of the audience
would not even notice what I write.

Unfortunately, VR technology has not
reached the stage when it might be
possible to remotely pour iced water
on the person reading my posts on
his/her terminal halfway across the
world. How I would love to do that!

You are all looking for confirmation,
rather than revelations.

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 7:01:12 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 10:45:01 PM UTC-7, vhorowitz wrote:
> >
>
>
> Mandryka said "Nope. This is a BB like no other".
>
> John Gavin replied: "No. This is a BB like no other".

Without an added smiley emoji, that was meant in a light humorous way.
I haven’t heard the Koch version yet, but I will.
>
> Then Mandryka said "I like Koch because it is full
> of inner life" -- whatever that means.

That very description causes me to want to hear it even more! I find that to be a sincere and eloquent observation.
>
>
> I offer a lot more than you realize. Just read the
> archives of this ng since 1990. However I don't
> offer anything in an easy to digest, flattering
> format like Melmoth, John Gavin and others
> who try to please (or at least not to upset)
> everyone else. You act irritated because I
> question and challenge not only the
> substance of classical music and of
> music performance, but also the
> pedantic, pretentious traditional ways
> music is described and discussed.

Sorry Dan, but frankly I found vhorowitz’ post to be both an impressively accurate and comprehensive description.
No two people perceive art in exactly the same way. There are thousands of variables that form tastes - likes and dislikes and opinions. Here are some steps to pulling yourself out of the rut.

1. Respect others’ views.
2. Realize that opinions in and of themselves are rarely very important or lasting.
3. Don’t remain attached to them.
4. This one is painful - aspire to see yourself as others see you.

>
> If I didn't use terms like metronomic and
> sewing machine, most of the audience
> would not even notice what I write.
>
> Unfortunately, VR technology has not
> reached the stage when it might be
> possible to remotely pour iced water
> on the person reading my posts on
> his/her terminal halfway across the
> world. How I would love to do that!
>
> You are all looking for confirmation,
> rather than revelations.

Pure ego.

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 7:01:12 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 10:45:01 PM UTC-7, vhorowitz wrote:
> >
> > If I had a dime for every time your one-word
> > knee-jerk moniker of "metronomic" was slapped
> > onto something that was not in any way metronomic,
> According to whose ears? "Metronomic" is in the
> ears of the listener. Your ears don't work the same
> way as mine -- if they work at all.
> > I’d be a millionaire.
> No, you wouldn't. There aren't enough musicians
> in the universe for anyone to collect that many
> dimes.
> > You are a killer of discourse,
> There is no "discourse" in this thread, at least not
> in the sense the term is typically used. Please go
> back and read again every post in this thread and
> point out the "discourse".
>
> Mandryka said "Nope. This is a BB like no other".
>
> John Gavin replied: "No. This is a BB like no other".
>
> Then Mandryka said "I like Koch because it is full
> of inner life" -- whatever that means.
>
> ... and so on.
>
> You call that "discourse" ?!?
> > and too arrogant to debate with anyone as an
> > equal, and on the level. It’s a shame because
> I am the humblest person. I even bow in front
> of my cats!
> > you obviously listen to a lot and could offer
> > something in value if you got off your freaking
> > high horse.
> I offer a lot more than you realize. Just read the
> archives of this ng since 1990. However I don't
> offer anything in an easy to digest, flattering
> format like Melmoth, John Gavin and others
> who try to please (or at least not to upset)
> everyone else. You act irritated because I
> question and challenge not only the
> substance of classical music and of
> music performance, but also the
> pedantic, pretentious traditional ways
> music is described and discussed.
>
> If I didn't use terms like metronomic and
> sewing machine, most of the audience
> would not even notice what I write.
>
> Unfortunately, VR technology has not
> reached the stage when it might be
> possible to remotely pour iced water
> on the person reading my posts on
> his/her terminal halfway across the
> world. How I would love to do that!
>
> You are all looking for confirmation,
> rather than revelations.

“If they work at all”
You prove my point….why be such an ass? My ears work just as well as yours, Dan, and anyway what purpose is a gratuitous comment of this sort? I guess the same bludgeon that informs your lack of critical detail, and the idea that you have to talk down to us all. It’s SO boring Dan.. Don’t you know another tune? You think that by being an ass, you cut through decades of inferior opinions and written criticism? Wow, you’ll have to do better than, because you don’t cut through anything except the cheese with your brand of “cliff notes on a pinhead” “criticism”

As far as discourse, indeed you haven’t a clue, and since you actually DO engage in discourse with those foolish enough to engage YOU in it, thinking you will respond in kind, but manage to kill it with your constant barrage of personal attacks and belittling anyone not agreeing with you (god forbid),

It’s not about your right to your opinion (have at it) but why are you such an asshole about it? It’s your ego, bub. You just HAVE to lord it over us all. Why? Who gives a crap? In any case, I expected you to respond as you did, so indeed there’s little point in trying to encourage you to keep your poison out of here. You’ll do it, be proud of it, and continue your lowlife in the legions of bottom feeder of internet jerks. Enjoy!

Op donderdag 15 juni 2023 om 16:48:23 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:

> As far as discourse, indeed you haven’t a clue, and since you actually DO engage in discourse with those foolish enough to engage YOU in it, thinking you will respond in kind, but manage to kill it with your constant barrage of personal attacks and belittling anyone not agreeing with you (god forbid),

I never had the impression that 'engaging in discourse' with Dan was a foolish undertaking. He is one of the most informative members of the group. The price to pay (and we all know what the price is) is well worth it. Dan is in many ways different from most of us. It doesn't help to tell him to be like most of us. I don't think he believes, he has much to gain from it.

Henk

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 12:58:23 PM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 15 juni 2023 om 16:48:23 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:
> > As far as discourse, indeed you haven’t a clue, and since you actually DO engage in discourse with those foolish enough to engage YOU in it, thinking you will respond in kind, but manage to kill it with your constant barrage of personal attacks and belittling anyone not agreeing with you (god forbid),
> I never had the impression that 'engaging in discourse' with Dan was a foolish undertaking. He is one of the most informative members of the group. The price to pay (and we all know what the price is) is well worth it. Dan is in many ways different from most of us. It doesn't help to tell him to be like most of us. I don't think he believes, he has much to gain from it.
>
> Henk

Fair enough. Like I try to keep saying, I respect Dan’s ears and the listening he does and he has every right to his opinion. If it comes with personal attacks, I guess I don’t see the point. Sarcasm yes….why not. I don’t mind anyone wanting their cheesesteak with wit, or witout (sorry, Philly joke). If he doesn’t want to “change” that’s fine, since I’m (and probably nobody else here) not going to change either, but hey Dan, give us the details you want from us TOO, then we’ll know what you’re talking about and maybe we’ll all have something more interesting to say?? If you can stand to be in the same room with US, maybe we can do the same.

vhorowitz schrieb am Donnerstag, 15. Juni 2023 um 19:19:41 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 12:58:23 PM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > Op donderdag 15 juni 2023 om 16:48:23 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:
> > > As far as discourse, indeed you haven’t a clue, and since you actually DO engage in discourse with those foolish enough to engage YOU in it, thinking you will respond in kind, but manage to kill it with your constant barrage of personal attacks and belittling anyone not agreeing with you (god forbid),
> > I never had the impression that 'engaging in discourse' with Dan was a foolish undertaking. He is one of the most informative members of the group.. The price to pay (and we all know what the price is) is well worth it. Dan is in many ways different from most of us. It doesn't help to tell him to be like most of us. I don't think he believes, he has much to gain from it..
> >
> > Henk
> Fair enough. Like I try to keep saying, I respect Dan’s ears and the listening he does and he has every right to his opinion. If it comes with personal attacks, I guess I don’t see the point. Sarcasm yes….why not. I don’t mind anyone wanting their cheesesteak with wit, or witout (sorry, Philly joke). If he doesn’t want to “change” that’s fine, since I’m (and probably nobody else here) not going to change either, but hey Dan, give us the details you want from us TOO, then we’ll know what you’re talking about and maybe we’ll all have something more interesting to say?? If you can stand to be in the same room with US, maybe we can do the same.

The problem with Dan is this... in communication skills he is lacking - at least in this ng - and wrt music he doesn't communicate much besides a good taste (in most cases) by posting links; which is fine for me and I often think he is funny, sometimes because I agree with him and sometimes because he is just completely devoid of reflection. He has a very rigid mindset and follows quite a strict behavioural pattern - especially if you address mistakes of him. He obviously does not have a lot of self-awareness, but ahem.... that goes for quite a few others around here as well.

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> I never had the impression that 'engaging in discourse'
> with Dan was a foolish undertaking. He is one of the
> most informative members of the group. The price to
> pay (and we all know what the price is) is well worth it.
> Dan is in many ways different from most of us. It doesn't
> help to tell him to be like most of us. I don't think he believes,
> he has much to gain from it.

Why would anyone want to be more like anyone else ?!?

There is an undercurrent of opinion in this ng that people
should abide by some unwritten code of behavire that no
one is willing or capable of stating and defending clearly.

This is the same normative prescriptive coercive streak
that poisons cultures and societies across the planet.

"Everyone" should "be" like "us" and "think" like "us". If
one is not like "us" and doesn't "think" like "us", one is
"arrogant", "narcissist", "ignorant", or whatever else
Herman says. This is what the so called "discourse"
appears to be in this group. Don't anyone dare have
different taste, different opinions, different criteria,
challenge established medieval "standards", etc...
This is Herman's Reformation.

dk