On Wednesday, February 24, 2010 at 2:35:47 PM UTC-8, calvin wrote:
> Not just those who give him his due but rarely listen
> to him. I mean people who really like his symphonies.
> I like them all but have a special liking for #4 and #7,
> having six performances of #4 and four of #7.

(2023 Y. upload):

"Why Listen to Bruckner?"

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 8:27:17 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 24, 2010 at 2:35:47 PM UTC-8, calvin wrote:
> > Not just those who give him his due but rarely listen
> > to him. I mean people who really like his symphonies.
> > I like them all but have a special liking for #4 and #7,
> > having six performances of #4 and four of #7.
> (2023 Y. upload):
>
> "Why Listen to Bruckner?"

Composer Robert Simpson's book "The Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to Bruckner. It's a fine lucid guide from a man who should know. You can find it used on Amazon for $18.

On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>
> Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> Bruckner.

"Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
composer? Why didn't you just listen with
the score in hand?

> It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> should know. You can find it used on
> Amazon for $18.

Can you provide a quick summary?

Thanks!

dk

On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> >
> > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > Bruckner.
> "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> the score in hand?
> > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > should know. You can find it used on
> > Amazon for $18.
> Can you provide a quick summary?
>
> Thanks!
>
> dk
A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid, it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful. As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > >
> > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > Bruckner.
> > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > the score in hand?
> > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > Amazon for $18.
> > Can you provide a quick summary?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.

Why should one care about "architecture"?

> As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.

It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
lurking in the background is what is the point of
writing and listening to music that requires books
and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?

Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
meanings so their reviews can go to print.

IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
from what you report, I will most likely not bother
to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
50 bucks!

dk

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > Bruckner.
> > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > the score in hand?
> > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> >
> > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> lurking in the background is what is the point of
> writing and listening to music that requires books
> and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
>
> Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> meanings so their reviews can go to print.
>
> IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> 50 bucks!
>
> dk
Why should once care about musical architecture? Why not?
Some composers think more architecturally than others.
To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.
LK

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:05:39 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > > Bruckner.
> > > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > > the score in hand?
> > > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> > Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> > It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> > lurking in the background is what is the point of
> > writing and listening to music that requires books
> > and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
> >
> > Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> > usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> > the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> > of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> > who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> > meanings so their reviews can go to print.
> >
> > IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> > It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> > from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> > to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> > 50 bucks!
> >
> > dk
> Why should one care about musical architecture? Why not?
> Some composers think more architecturally than others.
> To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.
> LK

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > > Bruckner.
> > > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > > the score in hand?
> > > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> > Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> > It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> > lurking in the background is what is the point of
> > writing and listening to music that requires books
> > and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
> >
> > Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> > usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> > the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> > of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> > who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> > meanings so their reviews can go to print.
> >
> > IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> > It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> > from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> > to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> > 50 bucks!
>
> Why should once care about musical architecture?
> Why not?

Indeed why not, if this is what makes one happy.

> Some composers think more architecturally than
> others.

You have to explain what architecture means outside
of architecture.

> To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse
> meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.

Can you provide some actual examples? Otherwise,
this is nothing more than hand waving.

dk

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:10:43 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > > > Bruckner.
> > > > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > > > the score in hand?
> > > > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > > > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > > > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > > > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > > > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > > > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > > > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > > > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > > > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> > > Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > > > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > > > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > > > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> > > It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> > > lurking in the background is what is the point of
> > > writing and listening to music that requires books
> > > and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
> > >
> > > Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> > > usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> > > the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> > > of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> > > who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> > > meanings so their reviews can go to print.
> > >
> > > IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> > > It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> > > from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> > > to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> > > 50 bucks!
> >
> > Why should once care about musical architecture?
> > Why not?
> Indeed why not, if this is what makes one happy.
> > Some composers think more architecturally than
> > others.
> You have to explain what architecture means outside
> of architecture.
> > To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse
> > meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.
> Can you provide some actual examples? Otherwise,
> this is nothing more than hand waving.
>
> dk
For example, a good many symphonies consist of four movements and episodes within thos movements. Thus one significant aspect of the work's "architecture" would be how the music functions in terms of expectation and surprise. One good example would be the relation between the intro to the Schubert Ninth and the rest of that movement.
LK

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:23:02 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:10:43 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > > > > Bruckner.
> > > > > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > > > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > > > > the score in hand?
> > > > > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > > > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > >
> > > > > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > > > > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > > > > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > > > > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > > > > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > > > > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > > > > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > > > > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > > > > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> > > > Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > > > > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > > > > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > > > > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> > > > It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> > > > lurking in the background is what is the point of
> > > > writing and listening to music that requires books
> > > > and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
> > > >
> > > > Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> > > > usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> > > > the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> > > > of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> > > > who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> > > > meanings so their reviews can go to print.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> > > > It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> > > > from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> > > > to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> > > > 50 bucks!
> > >
> > > Why should once care about musical architecture?
> > > Why not?
> > Indeed why not, if this is what makes one happy.
> > > Some composers think more architecturally than
> > > others.
> > You have to explain what architecture means outside
> > of architecture.
> > > To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse
> > > meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.
> > Can you provide some actual examples? Otherwise,
> > this is nothing more than hand waving.
> >
> > dk
> For example, a good many symphonies consist of four movements and episodes within those movements. Thus one significant aspect of the work's "architecture" would be how the music functions in terms of expectation and surprise. One good example would be the relation between the intro to the Schubert Ninth and the rest of that movement.
> LK

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:23:02 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:10:43 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > > > > Bruckner.
> > > > > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > > > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > > > > the score in hand?
> > > > > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > > > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > >
> > > > > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > > > > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > > > > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > > > > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > > > > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > > > > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > > > > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > > > > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > > > > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> > > > Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > > > > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > > > > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > > > > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> > > > It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> > > > lurking in the background is what is the point of
> > > > writing and listening to music that requires books
> > > > and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
> > > >
> > > > Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> > > > usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> > > > the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> > > > of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> > > > who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> > > > meanings so their reviews can go to print.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> > > > It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> > > > from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> > > > to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> > > > 50 bucks!
> > >
> > > Why should once care about musical architecture?
> > > Why not?
> >
> > Indeed why not, if this is what makes one happy.
> >
> > > Some composers think more architecturally than
> > > others.
> >
> > You have to explain what architecture means outside
> > of architecture.
> >
> > > To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse
> > > meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.
> >
> > Can you provide some actual examples? Otherwise,
> > this is nothing more than hand waving.
>
> For example, a good many symphonies consist of four
> movements and episodes within thos movements.

Thanks! I was asking for examples of multi-course meal
architectures.

> Thus one significant aspect of the work's "architecture"
> would be how the music functions in terms of expectation
> and surprise. One good example would be the relation
> between the intro to the Schubert Ninth and the rest of
> that movement.

My only expectation of Bruckner's symphonies is to be
bored to death. I don't see how understanding their
"acrhitecture" would prevent that and make them
more interesting.

Incidentally, for those of you interested in learning
about Bruckner's "architecture" Richard Atkinson's
channeon YouTube is full of autopsy reports on
Bruckner's symphonies -- and many others'.

https://www.youtube.com/@richardatkinson2108/videos

Pax and regards,

dk

On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 14:03:55 UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:23:02 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:10:43 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > > > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > > > > > Bruckner.
> > > > > > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > > > > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > > > > > the score in hand?
> > > > > > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > > > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > > > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > > > > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > > > > > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > > > > > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > > > > > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > > > > > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > > > > > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > > > > > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > > > > > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > > > > > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> > > > > Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > > > > > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > > > > > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > > > > > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> > > > > It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> > > > > lurking in the background is what is the point of
> > > > > writing and listening to music that requires books
> > > > > and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
> > > > >
> > > > > Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> > > > > usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> > > > > the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> > > > > of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> > > > > who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> > > > > meanings so their reviews can go to print.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> > > > > It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> > > > > from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> > > > > to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> > > > > 50 bucks!
> > > >
> > > > Why should once care about musical architecture?
> > > > Why not?
> > >
> > > Indeed why not, if this is what makes one happy.
> > >
> > > > Some composers think more architecturally than
> > > > others.
> > >
> > > You have to explain what architecture means outside
> > > of architecture.
> > >
> > > > To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse
> > > > meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.
> > >
> > > Can you provide some actual examples? Otherwise,
> > > this is nothing more than hand waving.
> >
> > For example, a good many symphonies consist of four
> > movements and episodes within thos movements.
> Thanks! I was asking for examples of multi-course meal
> architectures.
> > Thus one significant aspect of the work's "architecture"
> > would be how the music functions in terms of expectation
> > and surprise. One good example would be the relation
> > between the intro to the Schubert Ninth and the rest of
> > that movement.
> My only expectation of Bruckner's symphonies is to be
> bored to death. I don't see how understanding their
> "acrhitecture" would prevent that and make them
> more interesting.

Inherent in all of the later Bruckner symphonies are musical developments which demonstrate a logic, which in music is often associated with 'architecture'. There is clearly an 'arching' principle involved in Bruckner's 8th adagio movement, and similarly in other movements of his symphonies. In addition, his use of tremolo string patterns involve feelings of suspense. Nearly always the pinnacle of an 'arch' is often expressed by Bruckner using a ton of
brass.

Not so difficult really. I like Bruckner because his symphonies are logical, and deceptively simple, but yet reach pinnacles of sound which inspire a sense of awe. There really isn't any need to understand his music. One either likes the sounds as constructed or one doesn't. I've never yet really read any book and have never ever felt the need to read one, to enjoy any type of music.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 9:31:04 PM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I like Bruckner because his symphonies are
> logical, and deceptively simple, but yet reach
> pinnacles of sound which inspire a sense of awe.

I like logic in science and engineering. I don't
care about logic in steaks, risotto, chocolate
or music. They are not intellectual endeavors.

dk

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 9:31:04 PM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 14:03:55 UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:23:02 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:10:43 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 8:52:57 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:40:28 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 10:42:33 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:09:46 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Composer Robert Simpson's book "The
> > > > > > > > > Essence of Bruckner" opened my ears to
> > > > > > > > > Bruckner.
> > > > > > > > "Reading" a book "opened" your ears to a
> > > > > > > > composer? Why didn't you just listen with
> > > > > > > > the score in hand?
> > > > > > > > > It's a fine lucid guide from a man who
> > > > > > > > > should know. You can find it used on
> > > > > > > > > Amazon for $18.
> > > > > > > > Can you provide a quick summary?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A quick summary? No -- while the book is quite lucid,
> > > > > > > it's also quite detailed, and the details pay off. If you
> > > > > > > know Robert Simpson's own symphonies, you'll know
> > > > > > > why he's got such a a good grasp of Bruckner's symphonic
> > > > > > > architecture, Briefy, I would say that Bruckner music is
> > > > > > > primarily architectural and Simpson knows how the works
> > > > > > > are constructed and why. I should perhaps add "unconventionally
> > > > > > > architectural," which means that the nature of his structures needs
> > > > > > > to be grasped and thar some help in doing so is .... helpful.
> > > > > > Why should one care about "architecture"?
> > > > > > > As for Dan 's "just listen," all I can say is that just
> > > > > > > listening didn't quite work for me with Bruckner
> > > > > > > until Simpson pointed out how to follow the trail.
> > > > > > It doesn't work for most people. The bigger question
> > > > > > lurking in the background is what is the point of
> > > > > > writing and listening to music that requires books
> > > > > > and technical explanations in order to be enjoyed?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whe one orders a dish in a restaurant, one doesn't
> > > > > > usually care about the architecture of the skillet and
> > > > > > the chef's philosophy. One cares only about the taste
> > > > > > of the resulting dish -- except of course for reviewers
> > > > > > who need to split hairs and speculate about deeper
> > > > > > meanings so their reviews can go to print.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMHO music that requires explanations is not art.
> > > > > > It may be useful as a didactic exercise. Judging
> > > > > > from what you report, I will most likely not bother
> > > > > > to read Simpson's book. Thanks for saving me
> > > > > > 50 bucks!
> > > > >
> > > > > Why should once care about musical architecture?
> > > > > Why not?
> > > >
> > > > Indeed why not, if this is what makes one happy.
> > > >
> > > > > Some composers think more architecturally than
> > > > > others.
> > > >
> > > > You have to explain what architecture means outside
> > > > of architecture.
> > > >
> > > > > To run with your restaurant analogy, a multicourse
> > > > > meal surely has or should have an architecture to it.
> > > >
> > > > Can you provide some actual examples? Otherwise,
> > > > this is nothing more than hand waving.
> > >
> > > For example, a good many symphonies consist of four
> > > movements and episodes within thos movements.
> > Thanks! I was asking for examples of multi-course meal
> > architectures.
> > > Thus one significant aspect of the work's "architecture"
> > > would be how the music functions in terms of expectation
> > > and surprise. One good example would be the relation
> > > between the intro to the Schubert Ninth and the rest of
> > > that movement.
> > My only expectation of Bruckner's symphonies is to be
> > bored to death. I don't see how understanding their
> > "acrhitecture" would prevent that and make them
> > more interesting.
> Inherent in all of the later Bruckner symphonies are musical developments which demonstrate a logic, which in music is often associated with 'architecture'. There is clearly an 'arching' principle involved in Bruckner's 8th adagio movement, and similarly in other movements of his symphonies. In addition, his use of tremolo string patterns involve feelings of suspense. Nearly always the pinnacle of an 'arch' is often expressed by Bruckner using a ton of
> brass.
>
> Not so difficult really. I like Bruckner because his symphonies are logical, and deceptively simple, but yet reach pinnacles of sound which inspire a sense of awe. There really isn't any need to understand his music. One either likes the sounds as constructed or one doesn't. I've never yet really read any book and have never ever felt the need to read one, to enjoy any type of music.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

According to Chatbot BARD:

The architecture of Anton Bruckner's symphonies is often described as "architectonic" or "symphonic architecture." This is because the symphonies are built on a foundation of large-scale structures, such as sonata form, fugue, and chorale. These structures provide a sense of order and coherence to the symphonies, and they allow Bruckner to explore a wide range of musical ideas.

Another characteristic of Bruckner's symphonic architecture is his use of repetition. Bruckner often repeats musical ideas, motifs, and themes throughout his symphonies. This repetition creates a sense of unity and coherence, and it also allows Bruckner to build up tension and release.

Bruckner's use of orchestration is also important to his symphonic architecture. Bruckner's orchestras are often large and complex, and he uses the different instruments to create a variety of textures and colors. This allows him to create a sense of depth and richness in his symphonies.

The architecture of Bruckner's symphonies is a complex and sophisticated art. It is based on a foundation of large-scale structures, repetition, and orchestration. These elements allow Bruckner to create symphonies that are both monumental and expressive.

Here are some specific examples of how Bruckner's symphonic architecture can be seen in his music:

The use of sonata form: Sonata form is a large-scale structure that is used in many different types of music, including symphonies. In sonata form, the music is divided into two main sections, the exposition and the development. The exposition introduces the main themes of the symphony, and the development explores these themes in different ways. The recapitulation then brings the themes back, often in a modified form. Bruckner used sonata form in many of his symphonies, including the Second, Third, and Fourth Symphonies.
Sonata form musical structureOpens in a new window
Go Into The Story
Sonata form musical structure

The use of repetition: Bruckner often repeated musical ideas, motifs, and themes throughout his symphonies. This repetition created a sense of unity and coherence, and it also allowed Bruckner to build up tension and release. For example, the opening theme of Bruckner's Third Symphony is repeated throughout the symphony, and it is used to create a sense of both unity and tension.

The use of orchestration: Bruckner's orchestras were often large and complex, and he used the different instruments to create a variety of textures and colors. This allowed him to create a sense of depth and richness in his symphonies. For example, the Fourth Symphony is scored for a large orchestra, and Bruckner uses the different instruments to create a variety of textures, including a rich and powerful brass section.

On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 14:39:22 UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 9:31:04 PM UTC-7, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I like Bruckner because his symphonies are
> > logical, and deceptively simple, but yet reach
> > pinnacles of sound which inspire a sense of awe.
> I like logic in science and engineering. I don't
> care about logic in steaks, risotto, chocolate
> or music. They are not intellectual endeavors.
>
> dk

There has to be a logic used in music, else much of wouldn't make sense. However, this musical logic is different from that used in science. Any intellectual endeavour must depend on its own logic.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:22:05 PM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 14:39:22 UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 9:31:04 PM UTC-7, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I like Bruckner because his symphonies are
> > > logical, and deceptively simple, but yet reach
> > > pinnacles of sound which inspire a sense of awe.
> > I like logic in science and engineering. I don't
> > care about logic in steaks, risotto, chocolate
> > or music. They are not intellectual endeavors.
> >
> > dk
> There has to be a logic used in music, else much of wouldn't make sense. However, this musical logic is different from that used in science. Any intellectual endeavour must depend on its own logic.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

Chatbot BARD answers the question: Are there artforms that defy logic?

Yes, there are many artforms that defy logic. Some of the most common examples include:

Surrealism: Surrealism is a movement in art and literature that seeks to express the subconscious mind through dreamlike imagery and juxtapositions of unrelated objects. Surrealist art often defies logic and reason, and instead relies on intuition and emotion to create its effects.

Abstract art: Abstract art is art that does not represent any recognizable objects or figures. Instead, it uses shapes, colors, and lines to create purely abstract compositions. Abstract art can be seen as a way of expressing emotions or ideas that cannot be conveyed through traditional forms of representation.

Performance art: Performance art is a type of art that involves the artist's body and actions as the primary medium. Performance art often challenges traditional notions of art and performance, and can be seen as a way of exploring the boundaries of art and reality.

Conceptual art: Conceptual art is a type of art that is concerned with the ideas behind the art, rather than the physical form of the art itself. Conceptual art often challenges traditional notions of art and beauty, and can be seen as a way of exploring the nature of art and perception.

These are just a few examples of artforms that defy logic. There are many other artforms that could be included on this list, as art is a vast and diverse field. Ultimately, whether or not an artform defies logic is a matter of interpretation.

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:44:19 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:22:05 PM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 14:39:22 UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 9:31:04 PM UTC-7, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I like Bruckner because his symphonies are
> > > > logical, and deceptively simple, but yet reach
> > > > pinnacles of sound which inspire a sense of awe.
> > > I like logic in science and engineering. I don't
> > > care about logic in steaks, risotto, chocolate
> > > or music. They are not intellectual endeavors.
> > >
> > > dk
> > There has to be a logic used in music, else much of wouldn't make sense.. However, this musical logic is different from that used in science. Any intellectual endeavour must depend on its own logic.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> Chatbot BARD answers the question: Are there artforms that defy logic?
>
> Yes, there are many artforms that defy logic. Some of the most common examples include:
>
> Surrealism: Surrealism is a movement in art and literature that seeks to express the subconscious mind through dreamlike imagery and juxtapositions of unrelated objects. Surrealist art often defies logic and reason, and instead relies on intuition and emotion to create its effects.
>
> Abstract art: Abstract art is art that does not represent any recognizable objects or figures. Instead, it uses shapes, colors, and lines to create purely abstract compositions. Abstract art can be seen as a way of expressing emotions or ideas that cannot be conveyed through traditional forms of representation.
>
> Performance art: Performance art is a type of art that involves the artist's body and actions as the primary medium. Performance art often challenges traditional notions of art and performance, and can be seen as a way of exploring the boundaries of art and reality.
>
> Conceptual art: Conceptual art is a type of art that is concerned with the ideas behind the art, rather than the physical form of the art itself. Conceptual art often challenges traditional notions of art and beauty, and can be seen as a way of exploring the nature of art and perception.
>
> These are just a few examples of artforms that defy logic. There are many other artforms that could be included on this list, as art is a vast and diverse field. Ultimately, whether or not an artform defies logic is a matter of interpretation.

Does stream-of-consciousness defy logic?

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 6:39:22 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>I don't
> care about logic in steaks, risotto, chocolate
> or music. They are not intellectual endeavors.
>
Zzzzzzz this 'music is like chocolate' inanity has been reiterated about a million times. It's an insult in its stupidity.

Composing classical music is obviously an intellectual effort.
Listening to music is, to a lesser degree, too, unless you do what DK does, i.e. get drunk every day and 'listen' to the same encorey tunes over and over again and imagine yourself to be a connoisseur.

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 12:00:49 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>
> Listening to music is, to a lesser
> degree, too, unless you do what
> DK does, i.e. get drunk every day

I don't drink. I sip. Drinking is
for BENEFRADELUX morons.

dk

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:44:19 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> Chatbot BARD answers the question: Are there artforms that defy logic?
>
> Yes, there are many artforms that defy logic. Some of the most common examples include:
>
> Performance art: Performance art is a type of art that involves the artist's body and actions
> as the primary medium. Performance art often challenges traditional notions of art and
> performance, and can be seen as a way of exploring the boundaries of art and reality.

BARD is clearly smarter than most of the folks on r.m.c.r.

Pax

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:46:49 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> I don't drink. I sip.

We don't give a fuck about all these personal disclosures.
you're only that interesting to your little buttboy - and to yourself, of course.

however, since the departure of Rugby (guess why he stopped posting), you're the only RMCR p[oster consistently mentioning alcohol.

Herman schrieb am Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 11:31:02 UTC+2:
> On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:46:49 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > I don't drink. I sip.
> We don't give a fuck about all these personal disclosures.

Actually you do, as evidenced by this post ;D

> you're only that interesting to your little buttboy - and to yourself, of course.

And obviously you're also giving a whole lot of fucks about me - haha.

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 4:45:26 AM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:
> Herman schrieb am Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 11:31:02 UTC+2:
> > On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:46:49 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't drink. I sip.
> > We don't give a fuck about all these personal disclosures.
> Actually you do, as evidenced by this post ;D
> > you're only that interesting to your little buttboy - and to yourself, of course.
> And obviously you're also giving a whole lot of fucks about me - haha.

Architecture in food. In terms of taste, texture, appearance etc. Each course stirs expectaions and then satisfies them in varied waya-- sometimes surprisingly. If you've never experienced this, I'd be surprised.