On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:23:18 PM UTC-4, vhorowitz wrote:
> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 9:59:52 PM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > What is the reason for, or the origin of the
> > habit of performing KV 475 followed by KV
> > 457 as if they were one supersized sonata?
> >
> > The latter was written half a year before the
> > former, and it seems unlikely Mozart would
> > have intended them to be performed as one
> > work.
> >
> > I ask the question .... I don't doubt someone
> > in this ng knows the answer (or believes it
> > does).
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> >

Dan’s too busy drawing people into discussions of shit he doesn’t know or care about to respond to all of the specious “conversations” he’s created. Must be great being Dan. What’s the name of your agent Dan? I need to call him up and make an appointment, because you’re SO in demand, and SO busy with everything I know there no way to reach you here on this group because you’re just SO busy creating awesome content for us all to admire all day and night and even part of the next day. Wow, Dan, you’re freaking amazing! My hero!

Dan Brubeck

On 6/25/23 12:23 PM, vhorowitz wrote:
> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 9:59:52 PM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
>> What is the reason for, or the origin of the habit of performing KV
>> 475 followed by KV 457 as if they were one supersized sonata?

> They were published together in Mozart’s lifetime (1785). I had
> forgotten that. The autograph was actually lost until 1990
> (discovered in Philadelphia, of all places!). According to this
> interesting Henle blog post, the autograph had the 2 works together,
> unless I’m misreading something.
> https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2012/03/05/how-an-original-mozart-a-flat-escaped-from-the-dust-on-the-slow-movement-of-the-c-minor-piano-sonata-k-457/

> I guess the old editions were based solely on the published edition.

https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/d/d1/IMSLP294002-PMLP01852-Mozart_-_Fantaisie_et_Sonate_pour_le_Forte-Piano,_Oeuvre_XI.pdf

> What’s interesting is when I was a kid we were told the Nathan Broder
> edition of the Mozart Sonatas was the best, and that Henle’s first
> crack at it wasn’t so hot, but I think the revisions and corrections
> over the years mean it’s a tossup between Barenreiter and Henle and
> Broder is a bit of a relic (I still like it, though). Probably
> easier to choose a printed edition than picking a favorite
> recording!

Distinguishing dots and wedges was a criterion back in the day.

The interesting question for me is whether WAM ever suggested that it would be a good idea to play the two together. In his letters maybe.

On 7/10/23 2:43 PM, Mandryka wrote:
> The interesting question for me is whether WAM ever suggested that it
> would be a good idea to play the two together. In his letters
> maybe.

https://allaboutmozart.com/k475/

As the two were written for his student, Therese Trattner, he may have
included instructions in letters she retained following his death.

https://mozartschildren.wordpress.com/tag/therese-von-trattner/

http://michaelorenz.blogspot.com/2013/09/mozart-in-trattnerhof.html

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:55:48 PM UTC+1, mINE109 wrote:
> On 7/10/23 2:43 PM, Mandryka wrote:
> > The interesting question for me is whether WAM ever suggested that it
> > would be a good idea to play the two together. In his letters
> > maybe.
> https://allaboutmozart.com/k475/
>
> As the two were written for his student, Therese Trattner, he may have
> included instructions in letters she retained following his death.
>
> https://mozartschildren.wordpress.com/tag/therese-von-trattner/
>
> http://michaelorenz.blogspot.com/2013/09/mozart-in-trattnerhof.html

We don’t have any of the Mozart/Trattner correspondence by the looks of it, so no evidence that he suggested using the Fantasia as a prelude to the sonata.

On 7/10/23 4:09 PM, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:55:48 PM UTC+1, mINE109 wrote:
>> On 7/10/23 2:43 PM, Mandryka wrote:
>>> The interesting question for me is whether WAM ever suggested
>>> that it would be a good idea to play the two together. In his
>>> letters maybe.
>> https://allaboutmozart.com/k475/
>>
>> As the two were written for his student, Therese Trattner, he may
>> have included instructions in letters she retained following his
>> death.
>>
>> https://mozartschildren.wordpress.com/tag/therese-von-trattner/
>>
>> http://michaelorenz.blogspot.com/2013/09/mozart-in-trattnerhof.html

> We don’t have any of the Mozart/Trattner correspondence by the looks
> of it, so no evidence that he suggested using the Fantasia as a
> prelude to the sonata.

The title of the original publication is "Fantasie et Sonate."

What is the reason for, or the origin of the
habit of performing KV 475 followed by KV
457 as if they were one supersized sonata?

The latter was written half a year before the
former, and it seems unlikely Mozart would
have intended them to be performed as one
work.

I ask the question .... I don't doubt someone
in this ng knows the answer (or believes it
does).

Thanks and regards,

dk

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 9:59:52 PM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> What is the reason for, or the origin of the
> habit of performing KV 475 followed by KV
> 457 as if they were one supersized sonata?
>
> The latter was written half a year before the
> former, and it seems unlikely Mozart would
> have intended them to be performed as one
> work.
>
> I ask the question .... I don't doubt someone
> in this ng knows the answer (or believes it
> does).
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> dk

They were published together in Mozart’s lifetime (1785). I had forgotten that. The autograph was actually lost until 1990 (discovered in Philadelphia, of all places!). According to this interesting Henle blog post, the autograph had the 2 works together, unless I’m misreading something. https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2012/03/05/how-an-original-mozart-a-flat-escaped-from-the-dust-on-the-slow-movement-of-the-c-minor-piano-sonata-k-457/

I guess the old editions were based solely on the published edition. What’s interesting is when I was a kid we were told the Nathan Broder edition of the Mozart Sonatas was the best, and that Henle’s first crack at it wasn’t so hot, but I think the revisions and corrections over the years mean it’s a tossup between Barenreiter and Henle and Broder is a bit of a relic (I still like it, though). Probably easier to choose a printed edition than picking a favorite recording!

Dr. Michael Hfuhruhurr