So 2023 is the 400th anniversary of the death of William Byrd....
And more recordings have been appearing, mostly various assorted
collections at this point.

Back when I studied Gustav Reese's _Renaissance Music_, Byrd was
placed with Palestrina & Lassus at the summit of the later 16th
century style. That's later than my priorities these days -- it's
e.g. post-Columbian. Nonetheless, Byrd is considered by many people
as one of the greatest composers of one of the greatest generations.
Where he particularly stands out versus his peers elsewhere though
is in his instrumental compositions, as he was one of the most
important contributors to nascent genres.... So even though it's
later, I've particularly enjoyed his keyboard & consort music....
(Byrd is also well-known for being a Catholic during the English
Reformation, which drove many of the stylistic changes at the
time....)

But I'm not sure that anything that's really a landmark survey has
appeared for the anniversary (yet).... Thoughts?

On 10/16/23 1:09 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> So 2023 is the 400th anniversary of the death of William Byrd....
> And more recordings have been appearing, mostly various assorted
> collections at this point.
>
> Back when I studied Gustav Reese's _Renaissance Music_, Byrd was
> placed with Palestrina & Lassus at the summit of the later 16th
> century style. That's later than my priorities these days -- it's
> e.g. post-Columbian. Nonetheless, Byrd is considered by many people
> as one of the greatest composers of one of the greatest generations.
> Where he particularly stands out versus his peers elsewhere though
> is in his instrumental compositions, as he was one of the most
> important contributors to nascent genres.... So even though it's
> later, I've particularly enjoyed his keyboard & consort music....
> (Byrd is also well-known for being a Catholic during the English
> Reformation, which drove many of the stylistic changes at the
> time....)
>
> But I'm not sure that anything that's really a landmark survey has
> appeared for the anniversary (yet).... Thoughts?

Thanks for mentioning this. A centenary collection would be welcome but
I can see how it would be unlikely. The saving grace is that his choral
and viol consort works are well-represented in the market.

I'm reminded of Davitt Moroney's keyboard recordings, available streaming.

In article <ugk0kf$1k1f1$1@dont-email.me>,
mINE109 <pianoforte109@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A centenary collection would be welcome but I can see how it would
>be unlikely.

Alamire has released (on "Inventa") a new recording of his _Songs
of sundrie natures_ (1589). A new reading of the complete _Psalms,
songs and sonnets_ (1611) seems like a reasonable ask....

And yes, the Maroney keyboard set is of high value....

The most interesting new Byrd keyboard music this year is the three tracks by a harpsichordist I hadn’t heard of before called Emanuel Frankenberg here

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9495832--the-dutch-harpsichord-school-a-tribute-to-gustav-leonhardt

That being said, Stephen Farr has released a CD of organ music which I haven’t heard - could be worth a shot.

Belder hasn’t caught my imagination I’m afraid.

In article <6c201b60-532c-4882-8b27-c6fd5d9a4ba5n@googlegroups.com>,
steve...@gmail.com <stevec32000@gmail.com> wrote:
>Any thoughts about Kit Armstrong's recording of Byrd and Bull on
>DG?

There was some discussion on the group when this was new....

I think some of this music sounds nice on piano, so support these
kinds of efforts. It's hard to play though... basically all those
quick notes benefit from the "spring" of the harpsichord, and are
very tiring on piano... and so I don't think it always comes off
great. Things can seem a little warped at times in that set,
including just tired fingers. Part of a process I think....

In article <8d713fc1-a7cb-4d5f-b2d3-0ba253b8f85an@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>That being said, Stephen Farr has released a CD of organ music
>which I haven't heard - could be worth a shot.

I listened to this yesterday. It has its good points, but the big
organ really lacks the intimacy of a virginal -- even though, to
his credit, Farr plays some lighter stops for some tracks. The
echo & held tones force a slower (& more somber) pace to the music,
which works for some pieces better than others....

In article <8d713fc1-a7cb-4d5f-b2d3-0ba253b8f85an@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>The most interesting new Byrd keyboard music this year is the three
>tracks by a harpsichordist I hadn't heard of before called Emanuel
>Frankenberg here
>https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9495832--the-dutch-harpsichord-school-a-tribute-to-gustav-leonhardt

Good find.... Emmanuel (with 2 "m"s), I guess, and I don't recall
anything else from him either.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:21:21 AM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <8d713fc1-a7cb-4d5f...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >That being said, Stephen Farr has released a CD of organ music
> >which I haven't heard - could be worth a shot.
> I listened to this yesterday. It has its good points, but the big
> organ really lacks the intimacy of a virginal -- even though, to
> his credit, Farr plays some lighter stops for some tracks. The
> echo & held tones force a slower (& more somber) pace to the music,
> which works for some pieces better than others....

One Byrd organ CD I like is by Marianne Lévy - Noisette’s CD. Part of it is organological - the instrument she uses is special.

How could I! I forgot the most important new Byrd keyboard release - bold performances I’d say. Lydia Maria Blank’s survey

https://www.artistcamp.com/lydia-maria-blank/william-byrd-music-for-the-virginalls/9008798375004/index.html

Someone (hint, hint Todd) should do a thorough review of Belder’s new Byrd releases. He’s clearly embarked on a big survey, he’s clearly very experienced in playing English music, he has a good reputation. I just can’t summon the energy!

In article <04058230-77d8-4626-9160-0cf2023a880cn@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>Someone (hint, hint Todd) should do a thorough review of Belder's
>new Byrd releases.

Well I've listened to the Fitzwilliam & My Ladye Nevells releases....
I guess I enjoyed the former more than the latter, but that's a lot
about expectations, and that MLNB possesses multiple previous
complete recordings.... None of it seemed revelatory, but solid.

On 10/17/23 9:38 PM, Mandryka wrote:

> One Byrd organ CD I like is by Marianne Lévy - Noisette’s CD. Part of it is organological - the instrument she uses is special.

Thanks for this! "Hugh Ashton's Ground" is as I always pictured it on
organ. "The Barkley-Break" [sic?] is a rousing opener.

OTOH, the tuning for "My Lady Nevell's Ground" is especially striking
for those not accustomed. Meantone?

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+1, mINE109 wrote:
> On 10/17/23 9:38 PM, Mandryka wrote:
>
> > One Byrd organ CD I like is by Marianne Lévy - Noisette’s CD. Part of it is organological - the instrument she uses is special.
> Thanks for this! "Hugh Ashton's Ground" is as I always pictured it on
> organ. "The Barkley-Break" [sic?] is a rousing opener.
>
> OTOH, the tuning for "My Lady Nevell's Ground" is especially striking
> for those not accustomed. Meantone?
It is 1/4 comma meantone

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 5:39:52 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+1, mINE109 wrote:
> > On 10/17/23 9:38 PM, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > > One Byrd organ CD I like is by Marianne Lévy - Noisette’s CD. Part of it is organological - the instrument she uses is special.
> > Thanks for this! "Hugh Ashton's Ground" is as I always pictured it on
> > organ. "The Barkley-Break" [sic?] is a rousing opener.
> >
> > OTOH, the tuning for "My Lady Nevell's Ground" is especially striking
> > for those not accustomed. Meantone?
> It is 1/4 comma meantone

The organ is amazing, and there it is hidden in a little, wonderful looking church (St Sulpice) in a little town in deepest Normandy (Breteuil sur Iton) And the organist - who has as far as I know just this one recording - really is good. She knows how to drive the instrument (which I guess she manages and loves), and she knows how to make sense of the music.

In article <f970cd1c-73fe-4b21-86ac-43864c7e0efen@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>How could I! I forgot the most important new Byrd keyboard release -
>bold performances I'd say. Lydia Maria Blank's survey

Listening through this lengthy set once, I was indeed struck by
some of her virtuosic interpretations in the big works. Many of
the pieces seemed to run together stylistically though.... Although
I will listen again, it brought up again a basic thought about this
repertory, namely that it seems as though everyone is starting from
scratch.... Maybe that's what HIP really is, but after all this
time, I'd think to hear more building of one person's interpretation
upon another's etc... like a school. But not much.

Another recent recording that struck me on a first hearing -- and
this is almost more a WAYLTL post -- is Chylek's new "Tallis - Byrd
- Gibbons" using both organ & harpsichord, which I found a lot more
compelling on first impression than his prior Byrd readings....
(People do build on *their own* interpretations here....)

On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 9:19:01 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <f970cd1c-73fe-4b21...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How could I! I forgot the most important new Byrd keyboard release -
> >bold performances I'd say. Lydia Maria Blank's survey
> Listening through this lengthy set once, I was indeed struck by
> some of her virtuosic interpretations in the big works. Many of
> the pieces seemed to run together stylistically though.... Although
> I will listen again, it brought up again a basic thought about this
> repertory, namely that it seems as though everyone is starting from
> scratch.... Maybe that's what HIP really is, but after all this
> time, I'd think to hear more building of one person's interpretation
> upon another's etc... like a school. But not much.
>
> Another recent recording that struck me on a first hearing -- and
> this is almost more a WAYLTL post -- is Chylek's new "Tallis - Byrd
> - Gibbons" using both organ & harpsichord, which I found a lot more
> compelling on first impression than his prior Byrd readings....
> (People do build on *their own* interpretations here....)

To me they all sound kind of the same - apart from tempo. In Byrd on harpsichord, I don’t think we’ve had any significant disruption from the basic ideas in Leonhardt’s early recording yet. There hasn’t been a Sergio Vartolo or a Wolfgang Rubsam for Byrd, except possibly Egarr and Koopman - and they’re both oddballs with no followers.

I really don’t know what HIP means in this context. Has there been much work done on what the manuscripts mean? What rhythm and phrasing and tempo they’re proposing? What type of embellishments were used? If so, I’ve never seen it.

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 5:41:08 AM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 9:19:01 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <f970cd1c-73fe-4b21...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >How could I! I forgot the most important new Byrd keyboard release -
> > >bold performances I'd say. Lydia Maria Blank's survey
> > Listening through this lengthy set once, I was indeed struck by
> > some of her virtuosic interpretations in the big works. Many of
> > the pieces seemed to run together stylistically though.... Although
> > I will listen again, it brought up again a basic thought about this
> > repertory, namely that it seems as though everyone is starting from
> > scratch.... Maybe that's what HIP really is, but after all this
> > time, I'd think to hear more building of one person's interpretation
> > upon another's etc... like a school. But not much.
> >
> > Another recent recording that struck me on a first hearing -- and
> > this is almost more a WAYLTL post -- is Chylek's new "Tallis - Byrd
> > - Gibbons" using both organ & harpsichord, which I found a lot more
> > compelling on first impression than his prior Byrd readings....
> > (People do build on *their own* interpretations here....)
> To me they all sound kind of the same - apart from tempo. In Byrd on harpsichord, I don’t think we’ve had any significant disruption from the basic ideas in Leonhardt’s early recording yet. There hasn’t been a Sergio Vartolo or a Wolfgang Rubsam for Byrd, except possibly Egarr and Koopman - and they’re both oddballs with no followers.
>
>
> I really don’t know what HIP means in this context. Has there been much work done on what the manuscripts mean? What rhythm and phrasing and tempo they’re proposing? What type of embellishments were used? If so, I’ve never seen it.

Actually, reflecting a bit on disruptive influences in Byrd, I should listen again to two before being confident that what I wrote above is correct - Glen Wilson (who from memory is unusually severe) and Elizabeth Farr (who may be quite free with the counterpoint, staggering voices.)

In article <e80261fa-d96b-478c-ab1d-fe7ff7b14f47n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>In Byrd on
>harpsichord, I don't think we've had any significant disruption from
>the basic ideas in Leonhardt's early recording yet.

Maroney is the basic standard for me.

>I really don't know what HIP means in this context. Has there
>been much work done on what the manuscripts mean? What rhythm and
>phrasing and tempo they'he proposing? What type of embellishments
>were used?

Yes, but as noted, it's largely been individuals undertaking their
own individual research.

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 3:16:51 PM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> Yes, but as noted, it's largely been individuals undertaking their
> own individual research.

One thing that I feel like I've noticed reading contemporary musicology texts but also anthropology, sociology etc is that every academic seems determined to propose a new framework and new jargon for conceptualizing their chosen field, breaking down its constituent parts, etc - like different ways to break down the gradations between improvisation and composition, or different ways to break down the various roles music can play in a cultural lifeway - in a book-length study nobody ever comes out and says, actually I think this other person's system is really good so I'll apply it... or, often it seems to me that somebody did some interesting field work which is really fascinating to read about, but the jargon-based abstraction portion of the text is boring and unconvincing and ideally would have been cut... I have to imagine this has to do with the shrinking academic job market, every book needing to pull extra weight in terms of self-marketing/CV value, but I don't really know.

In any case I guess maybe a lot of HIP is like that, every performer comes up with their own particular 'brand'...

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 4:18:04 AM UTC, cheregi wrote:
>
>
> In any case I guess maybe a lot of HIP is like that, every performer comes up with their own particular 'brand'...

Think of uninformed Bach performances and informed ones. Is it really true that there’s less variety of approaches in the uninformed performances?

No.

Same for Beethoven, Chopin etc.

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:00:08 AM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 4:18:04 AM UTC, cheregi wrote:
> >
> >
> > In any case I guess maybe a lot of HIP is like that, every performer comes up with their own particular 'brand'...
> Think of uninformed Bach performances and informed ones. Is it really true that there’s less variety of approaches in the uninformed performances?
>
>
>
> No.
>
>
> Same for Beethoven, Chopin etc.

Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with their own approach. Interpretation is an art.

In article <084dea02-214b-47db-9c8b-9f9dcfc50aa0n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with
>their own approach. Interpretation is an art.

Well yes, but that doesn't rule out building more on what others
have done, rather than starting from scratch.

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:06:01 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <084dea02-214b-47db...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with
> >their own approach. Interpretation is an art.
> Well yes, but that doesn't rule out building more on what others
> have done, rather than starting from scratch.

Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot’s pupils build on what Cortot had done when they played Chopin? I don’t hear it. Did anyone build on what Furtwangler did?

The only exceptions I can think of right now are -

1. Gould’s tempo in the first (few) Goldberg variations

2. Schnabel’s tempo in the first few variations of Beethoven op 111/ii

3. Fischer-Dieskau’s extreme studied singing style

4. The short lived fashion for strict and literal performances - presumably originating with Toscanini and Walcha

All four are arguably a bad thing.

In article <912a4e88-4fc4-495a-ad4c-327c8df1c1b7n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot's pupils build on what Cortot
>had done when they played Chopin? I don't hear it. Did anyone build
>on what Furtwangler did?

It was kind of a general feeling I was getting in listening to some
of this. I didn't really expect such a response. But I also think
these questions are backwards, i.e. asking for someone following a
famous interpreter, rather than asking the influences for a current
interpreter....

I've forgotten for the moment which disc it was, but a recent Josquin
(I think it was...) album had the vocal ensemble director saying
thst he'd never heard anyone else perform this music. (It was not
obscure music, relatively speaking.) He said it almost like it was
a badge of honor. I thought that was very weird. Do post-Cortot
Chopin interpreters boast of never having heard the piece? (And
his interpretation was boring.)

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 4:56:32 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <912a4e88-4fc4-495a...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot's pupils build on what Cortot
> >had done when they played Chopin? I don't hear it. Did anyone build
> >on what Furtwangler did?
> It was kind of a general feeling I was getting in listening to some
> of this. I didn't really expect such a response. But I also think
> these questions are backwards, i.e. asking for someone following a
> famous interpreter, rather than asking the influences for a current
> interpreter....
>
> I've forgotten for the moment which disc it was, but a recent Josquin
> (I think it was...) album had the vocal ensemble director saying
> thst he'd never heard anyone else perform this music. (It was not
> obscure music, relatively speaking.) He said it almost like it was
> a badge of honor. I thought that was very weird. Do post-Cortot
> Chopin interpreters boast of never having heard the piece? (And
> his interpretation was boring.)

Well I think it's quite common for performers to be not particularly interested in hearing other performers play their repertoire.

Why should any musician listen to previous interpretations? They have the score, they have been trained in how to read it, translate it into sounds. They have their instrument, and they have their technique and imagination. That's all they need.

Have you read Pierre Bourdieu. I don't know if he's written about music, but he has certainly written about plastic arts. He is interested in how training gives practitioners skills and values which they absorb so deeply, they apply them without even being aware. In painting it may be at the level of how to apply the brush to the canvas, or even what sort of form to give to a painting. They may apply these skills thinking they're just natural, obvious -- but they're not, they are learned.

Maybe the same goes on in music. In HIP keyboard music, the sort of things which are being built on are things like: what sort of embellishments to apply, what sort of phrasing to use, and how to make the liaisons between consecutive pitches, when to change registers on an organ, how to align the voices in counterpoint etc.

Occasionally someone breaks the established rules of art. In Bourdieu's work, an example he discusses at length is Manet. In HIP music it might be Egarr or Koopman or Christopher Page or Rebecca Stewart or Wolfgang Rubsam. How the establishment deals with these rule breakers is contingent of course. They may be absorbed into the system -- that's what has happened to, for example, Christopher Page's work on unaccompanied vocal music. Others are rejected and sent into the wilderness, they are judged to be eccentric outsiders -- Lena Jacobson comes to mind. Others may form their own subgroup which may or may not be able to survive long term -- Rebecca Stewart may be a case in point.