https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-hammerklavier-sonata-valery-afanassiev/d9wj4lp5yasha

Slow (of course) in the first movement, and full of ideas about phrasing.

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 10:15:02 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-hammerklavier-sonata-valery-afanassiev/d9wj4lp5yasha
>
> Slow (of course) in the first movement, and full of ideas about phrasing.

Why don't you post links to YouTube
which unlike Qobuz does not require
a subscription for access?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2f-sOK0MmJK9Fmq7HYfmV249HhcIa28q

Cheers

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 10:15:02 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-hammerklavier-sonata-valery-afanassiev/d9wj4lp5yasha
>
> Slow (of course) in the first movement,
> and full of ideas about phrasing.

Like many (most?) Afanassiev recent
performances, this one is hesitating,
ponderous, ruminative, and completely
ineffective as a performance. It sounds
like his main purpose is to show how
deeply he is thinking about the music.
rather than to move his audience.

Like many (most?) recommendations
you make this one is totally bonkers.

Piano performance is a performing art,
not an exercise in collecting "ideas".

Listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2f-sOK0MmJKIFosoajyv_UckqJQ4ldrD

Cheers

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 9:56:31 PM UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 10:15:02 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> > https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-hammerklavier-sonata-valery-afanassiev/d9wj4lp5yasha
> >
> > Slow (of course) in the first movement,
> > and full of ideas about phrasing.
> Like many (most?) Afanassiev recent
> performances, this one is hesitating,
> ponderous, ruminative, and completely
> ineffective as a performance. It sounds
> like his main purpose is to show how
> deeply he is thinking about the music.
> rather than to move his audience.
>
> Like many (most?) recommendations
> you make this one is totally bonkers.
>
> Piano performance is a performing art,
> not an exercise in collecting "ideas".
>
> Listen to this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2f-sOK0MmJKIFosoajyv_UckqJQ4ldrD
>
> Cheers

Michael Korstick is much slower in Movement 3.

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 1:45:37 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 9:56:31 PM UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 10:15:02 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> > > https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-hammerklavier-sonata-valery-afanassiev/d9wj4lp5yasha
> > >
> > > Slow (of course) in the first movement,
> > > and full of ideas about phrasing.
> > Like many (most?) Afanassiev recent
> > performances, this one is hesitating,
> > ponderous, ruminative, and completely
> > ineffective as a performance. It sounds
> > like his main purpose is to show how
> > deeply he is thinking about the music.
> > rather than to move his audience.
> >
> > Like many (most?) recommendations
> > you make this one is totally bonkers.
> >
> > Piano performance is a performing art,
> > not an exercise in collecting "ideas".
> >
> > Listen to this:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2f-sOK0MmJKIFosoajyv_UckqJQ4ldrD
>
> Michael Korstick is much slower in Movement 3.

That does not make it a better performance.

You clearly have an infatuation with broken
pianos and with retarted pianists.

You

I was actually considering Beethoven as one of my favourites again... then I saw this thread and remembered how shitty most of his solo piano music is - especially Hammerklavier...

I don't understand what people hear here... it just sucks. I feel repulsed... Why do people want to play this?

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 2:17:27 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> I was actually considering Beethoven as one of my favourites again... then I saw this thread and remembered how shitty most of his solo piano music is - especially Hammerklavier...
>
> I don't understand what people hear here... it just sucks. I feel repulsed... Why do people want to play this?

It is a socially acceptable pseudo-intellectual
quasi-musical pretext for fashion shows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwRRLDpBVM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3xWyrOvzEo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAwLiXTkmo0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI_IOU5IsVE

etc ....

Best watched without sound.

Cheers

Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 11. Dezember 2023 um 11:34:25 UTC+1:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 2:17:27 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> > I was actually considering Beethoven as one of my favourites again... then I saw this thread and remembered how shitty most of his solo piano music is - especially Hammerklavier...
> >
> > I don't understand what people hear here... it just sucks. I feel repulsed... Why do people want to play this?
> It is a socially acceptable pseudo-intellectual
> quasi-musical pretext for fashion shows:

I don't believe this composition to be pseudo-intellectual; it is probably progressive in many ways wrt musical theory and I can see where you are coming from wrt Yuja Wang, Lisitsa et al - it sucks listening to it though. The beginning... I mean... I have no words for how unmusical it sounds (I'd rather listen to atonal stuff)... Probably many tackle this sonata because of how it is portrayed as one of the most important sonatas in all of human history (and stuff like: *beginning is unplayable* just adds to some sort of false fascination with this piece)... was anyone actually inspired by this mess?

Beethoven became some sort of mythical figure in western culture to the detriment of his often astounding work...

Brahms was critical of Beethoven:

"What is much weaker in Beethoven compared to Mozart, and especially compared to Sebastian Bach, is the use of dissonance. Dissonance, true dissonance as Mozart used it, is not to be found in Beethoven."

And if I'm not mistaking Brahms and also Schoenberg were much more influenced by Mozart (and also Bach) than by Beethoven.

I also think it's kind of funny how Brahms was explaining how difficult it was for him to compose sth after Beethoven -- what is forgotten here, is that it was probably even harder for Beethoven to compose sth after Mozart ;D

>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwRRLDpBVM
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3xWyrOvzEo
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAwLiXTkmo0
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI_IOU5IsVE
>
> etc ....
>
> Best watched without sound.
>
> Cheers

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 11. Dezember 2023 um 11:57:50 UTC+1:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 11. Dezember 2023 um 11:34:25 UTC+1:
> > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 2:17:27 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> > > I was actually considering Beethoven as one of my favourites again... then I saw this thread and remembered how shitty most of his solo piano music is - especially Hammerklavier...
> > >
> > > I don't understand what people hear here... it just sucks. I feel repulsed... Why do people want to play this?
> > It is a socially acceptable pseudo-intellectual
> > quasi-musical pretext for fashion shows:
> I don't believe this composition to be pseudo-intellectual; it is probably progressive in many ways wrt musical theory and I can see where you are coming from wrt Yuja Wang, Lisitsa et al - it sucks listening to it though. The beginning... I mean... I have no words for how unmusical it sounds (I'd rather listen to atonal stuff)... Probably many tackle this sonata because of how it is portrayed as one of the most important sonatas in all of human history (and stuff like: *beginning is unplayable* just adds to some sort of false fascination with this piece)... was anyone actually inspired by this mess?
>
> Beethoven became some sort of mythical figure in western culture to the detriment of his often astounding work...
>
> Brahms was critical of Beethoven:
>
> "What is much weaker in Beethoven compared to Mozart, and especially compared to Sebastian Bach, is the use of dissonance. Dissonance, true dissonance as Mozart used it, is not to be found in Beethoven."
>
> And if I'm not mistaking Brahms and also Schoenberg were much more influenced by Mozart (and also Bach) than by Beethoven.
>
> I also think it's kind of funny how Brahms was explaining how difficult it was for him to compose sth after Beethoven -- what is forgotten here, is that it was probably even harder for Beethoven to compose sth after Mozart ;D

*not just probably... You can really hear the struggle in Beethoven's music to compose great music after Mozart ;)

> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwRRLDpBVM
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3xWyrOvzEo
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAwLiXTkmo0
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI_IOU5IsVE
> >
> > etc ....
> >
> > Best watched without sound.
> >
> > Cheers

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 3:06:04 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > You can really hear the struggle in Beethoven's
> > music to compose great music after Mozart ;)
> All one hears in Boring van Beerthoven muzak is
> "struggle". Craft and struggle. Struggle and kraft.
> Fugues, marches and variations. Variations,
> fugues and marches. Marches, fugues and
> variations. Fugues, variation and marches.
> Marches, variations and fugues. Barking
> "themes". All craft, all struggle, no music.
>
> Mass delusions and psychoses.

Oh I forgot to mention the marches are all
FUNERAL marches. This guy was clearly
a deranged, necrophiliac psychopath
obsessed with death.

Cheers

Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 11. Dezember 2023 um 23:00:49 UTC+1:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 3:06:04 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > You can really hear the struggle in Beethoven's
> > > music to compose great music after Mozart ;)
> > All one hears in Boring van Beerthoven muzak is
> > "struggle". Craft and struggle. Struggle and kraft.
> > Fugues, marches and variations. Variations,
> > fugues and marches. Marches, fugues and
> > variations. Fugues, variation and marches.
> > Marches, variations and fugues. Barking
> > "themes". All craft, all struggle, no music.
> >
> > Mass delusions and psychoses.
> Oh I forgot to mention the marches are all
> FUNERAL marches. This guy was clearly
> a deranged, necrophiliac psychopath
> obsessed with death.
>
> Cheers

Always hated the slow movement of the eroica, 1st movement (despite some moments) and 3rd movement are okay, 4th is hmmm... not so good.

Also, calm down, he was still a great musician, one of he truly gifted ones - there are some really inspired moments in his music, the problem for me is, these are just moments...

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 11:00:49 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > Fugues, marches and variations. Variations,
> > fugues and marches. Marches, fugues and
> > variations. Fugues, variation and marches.
> > Marches, variations and fugues. Barking
> > "themes". All craft, all struggle, no music.
> >
> > Mass delusions and psychoses.
> Oh I forgot to mention the marches are all
> FUNERAL marches. This guy was clearly
> a deranged, necrophiliac psychopath
> obsessed with death.
>
> Cheers

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.
Completely deaf and deluded.

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 2:29:18 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 11:00:49 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > > Fugues, marches and variations. Variations,
> > > fugues and marches. Marches, fugues and
> > > variations. Fugues, variation and marches.
> > > Marches, variations and fugues. Barking
> > > "themes". All craft, all struggle, no music.
> > >
> > > Mass delusions and psychoses.
> > Oh I forgot to mention the marches are all
> > FUNERAL marches. This guy was clearly
> > a deranged, necrophiliac psychopath
> > obsessed with death.
>
> Clearly you have no idea what you're
> talking about.

Neither do you.

> Completely deaf and deluded.

Not a bit more than Homo Harminius
Batavicus Horribilis. I forgot what
"fiddler" was in Latin.

Take care, and listen to Beethoven's
muzak until you become as deaf as
he was. There is incontrovertible
irrefutable evidence his muzak
causes deafness. It made him
deaf, didn't it?

Cheers

The Hammerklavier is a wonderful piece of music, if you're in the mood for it.

It's not like tap water. No one is obliged to listen to it. This goes for all of Beethoven.

Beethoven and his Viennese contemporaries often used march forms, this is a common musical form, and also, Vienna was a vastly militarised state in Beethoven's time (Metternich). So it's probably something they heard a lot out in the city.
It's not entirely out of the question that Beethoven had controversial intentions with his marches, such as the opening fanfare of the Haammerklavier. Just as with Shostakovich's intentions, we'll never know.

Beethoven's marches were hardly ever of a funereal kind, that was Mahler.
It helps to listen to music, rather than type about it.

Generally I prefer the sonatas that surround 106, so: 101, 109, 110. Hammerklavier is a handful. I love the concluding fugue.

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 09:15:54 UTC+1:
> The Hammerklavier is a wonderful piece of music, if you're in the mood for it.

So what mood do I have to be in to think of it as a wonderful piece? And if I'm not in the mood for it, it suddenly isn't a wonderful piece anymore? Herman, you need to be more objective ;)

>
> It's not like tap water. No one is obliged to listen to it. This goes for all of Beethoven.

Yes, Beethoven is no tap water. You are. And yes, noone is obliged to listen to Beethoven - or any music at all -, just as noone is obliged to not post certain comments about a musical work.

>
> Beethoven and his Viennese contemporaries often used march forms, this is a common musical form, and also, Vienna was a vastly militarised state in Beethoven's time (Metternich). So it's probably something they heard a lot out in the city.
> It's not entirely out of the question that Beethoven had controversial intentions with his marches, such as the opening fanfare of the Haammerklavier. Just as with Shostakovich's intentions, we'll never know.
>
> Beethoven's marches were hardly ever of a funereal kind, that was Mahler.
> It helps to listen to music, rather than type about it.
>
> Generally I prefer the sonatas that surround 106, so: 101, 109, 110. Hammerklavier is a handful. I love the concluding fugue.

Some connaisseurship, I see ;)

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 09:15:54 UTC+1:
> The Hammerklavier is a wonderful piece of music, if you're in the mood for it.
>

These days, Herman, if you're in the mood for it - ask cheregi - you can identify as a woman ;D

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 09:58:16 UTC+1:
> Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 09:15:54 UTC+1:
> > The Hammerklavier is a wonderful piece of music, if you're in the mood for it.
> >
> These days, Herman, if you're in the mood for it - ask cheregi - you can identify as a woman ;D

And if someone dares to tell cheregi that he is deluded and has massive mental problems - which is the only sane thing to do -, you get called a bigot (by the likes of you) ;D

Good that Wilders is going against such nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE2aeRYv4YU

Well , it definitely got me in the mood, and I am listening to a recording of the 106 now.

Thanks, Howie, for bringing up some great music!

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 10:55:16 UTC+1:
> Well , it definitely got me in the mood, and I am listening to a recording of the 106 now.
>
> Thanks, Howie, for bringing up some great music!

Music too great for it to be appreciated by the likes of you and Howie ;)

On the reason why Herman is incapable of accessing the greatness of Beethoven's music:

"“If we listen to Beethoven and do not hear anything of the revolutionary bourgeoisie—not the echo of its slogans, the need to realize them, the cry for that totality in which reason and freedom are to have their warrant—we understand Beethoven no better than does one who cannot follow the purely musical content of his pieces,” wrote Theodor Adorno. Beethoven was so political that, by the end of his life, some of his friends refused to dine with him: either they were bored of his constant politicizing or they feared police spies would overhear him. “You are a revolutionary, a Carbonaro,” a friend of his wrote in his conversation book in 1823, referring to an Italian secret society that had played a role in various national uprisings. Well past the point that it had become (to his contemporaries) anachronistic, Beethoven kept the Enlightenment faith."

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/the-revolutionary-beethoven/

Herman is just too petty and upright to understand Beethoven's music.

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 13:20:05 UTC+1:
> On the reason why Herman is incapable of accessing the greatness of Beethoven's music:
>
> "“If we listen to Beethoven and do not hear anything of the revolutionary bourgeoisie—not the echo of its slogans, the need to realize them, the cry for that totality in which reason and freedom are to have their warrant—we understand Beethoven no better than does one who cannot follow the purely musical content of his pieces,” wrote Theodor Adorno. Beethoven was so political that, by the end of his life, some of his friends refused to dine with him: either they were bored of his constant politicizing or they feared police spies would overhear him. “You are a revolutionary, a Carbonaro,” a friend of his wrote in his conversation book in 1823, referring to an Italian secret society that had played a role in various national uprisings. Well past the point that it had become (to his contemporaries) anachronistic, Beethoven kept the Enlightenment faith."
>
> https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/the-revolutionary-beethoven/
>
> Herman is just too petty and upright to understand Beethoven's music.

meant to say *uptight - sorry. Mr politically correct Herman ;D

Forget what I said - only Beethoven comes close to Mozart. He is again my 2nd favourite composer - I should not have doubted him again. (The eroica slow movement is very beautiful in the hands of Celibidache (very interesting take) and also Mengelberg; it's just... hmmm... when I compare Beethoven to Mozart, I begin to dislike Beethoven ;D Brahms' slow movements never achieve anything as beautiful as Beethoven does in his slow movements etc...)

In article <33e5659d-b66e-4044-bcdc-1e3d7fb3feben@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Well, it definitely got me in the mood, and I am listening to a
>recording of the 106 now.

I listened to the Afanassiev reading yesterday. Overwrought might
be a good one-word description, but I enjoyed it. Not sure I'll
listen again. That's the way I feel about a lot of recordings of
the warhorses. It's good to have some variety.

On Dec 11, 2023 at 5:33:13 PM EST, "Dan Koren" <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 2:29:18 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 11:00:49 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fugues, marches and variations. Variations,
>>>> fugues and marches. Marches, fugues and
>>>> variations. Fugues, variation and marches.
>>>> Marches, variations and fugues. Barking
>>>> "themes". All craft, all struggle, no music.
>>>>
>>>> Mass delusions and psychoses.
>>> Oh I forgot to mention the marches are all
>>> FUNERAL marches. This guy was clearly
>>> a deranged, necrophiliac psychopath
>>> obsessed with death.
>>
>> Clearly you have no idea what you're
>> talking about.
>
> Neither do you.
>
>> Completely deaf and deluded.
>
> Not a bit more than Homo Harminius
> Batavicus Horribilis. I forgot what
> "fiddler" was in Latin.
>
> Take care, and listen to Beethoven's
> muzak until you become as deaf as
> he was. There is incontrovertible
> irrefutable evidence his muzak
> causes deafness. It made him
> deaf, didn't it?
>
>

I thought it was syphilis.

-Owen

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 6:07:21 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <33e5659d-b66e-4044...@googlegroups.com>,
> Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Well, it definitely got me in the mood, and I am listening to a
> >recording of the 106 now.
> I listened to the Afanassiev reading yesterday. Overwrought might
> be a good one-word description, but I enjoyed it. Not sure I'll
> listen again. That's the way I feel about a lot of recordings of
> the warhorses. It's good to have some variety.

I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast, other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.