by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER

I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.

What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
unfathomable.”[1]

Let me elaborate.

First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]

Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
capture what each has to say:

“‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
Gaza”[3]

“The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]

Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]

Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
stations.

Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
food at all’.”[8]

Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
“genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
studies have offered a similar warning.[10]

To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
“destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
members of Israel’s government.

Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
our fields.”[18]

Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]

Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]

Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]

Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
treatment.[28]

As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?

NOTES

[1]
https://jstreet.org/press-releases/moment-of-truth-for-israels-government/

[2] Both quotes can be found in:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-israeli-army-has-dropped-the-restraint-in-gaza-and-data-shows-unprecedented-killing/0000018c-4cca-db23-ad9f-6cdae8ad0000

[3]
https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

[4]
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-israeli-army-has-dropped-the-restraint-in-gaza-and-data-shows-unprecedented-killing/0000018c-4cca-db23-ad9f-6cdae8ad0000

[5]
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html

[6]
https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/press-encounter/2023-11-20/secretary-generals-press-conference-unep-emissions-gap-report-launch

On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
>
>
> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
>
> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> unfathomable.”[1]
>
> Let me elaborate.
>
> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
>
> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> capture what each has to say:
>
> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> Gaza”[3]
>
> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
>
> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
>
> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> stations.
>
> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> food at all’.”[8]
>
> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
>
> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> members of Israel’s government.
>
> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> our fields.”[18]
>
> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
>
> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
>
> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
>
> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> treatment.[28]
>
> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?

On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
>>
>>
>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
>>
>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
>> important  organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
>> unfathomable.”[1]
>>
>> Let me elaborate.
>>
>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
>>
>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
>> capture what each has to say:
>>
>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
>> Gaza”[3]
>>
>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
>>
>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
>>
>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
>> stations.
>>
>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
>> food at all’.”[8]
>>
>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
>>
>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
>> members of Israel’s government.
>>
>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
>> our fields.”[18]
>>
>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
>>
>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
>>
>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
>>
>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
>> treatment.[28]
>>
>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
>
> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
>
>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
>
> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
>
> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
>
> Try to stay on point.
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael Christ
>

On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> > On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> >> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> >>
> >>
> >> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> >> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> >> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> >> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> >>
> >> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> >> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> >> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> >> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> >> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> >> unfathomable.”[1]
> >>
> >> Let me elaborate.
> >>
> >> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> >> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> >> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> >> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> >> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> >> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> >> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> >> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> >>
> >> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> >> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> >> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> >> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> >> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> >> capture what each has to say:
> >>
> >> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> >> Gaza”[3]
> >>
> >> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> >> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> >>
> >> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> >> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> >> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> >> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> >> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> >> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> >>
> >> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> >> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> >> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> >> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> >> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> >> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> >> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> >> stations.
> >>
> >> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> >> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> >> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> >> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> >> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> >> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> >> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> >> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> >> food at all’.”[8]
> >>
> >> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> >> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> >> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> >> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> >> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> >> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> >> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> >>
> >> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> >> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> >> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> >> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> >> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> >> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> >> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> >> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> >> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> >> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> >> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> >> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> >> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> >> members of Israel’s government.
> >>
> >> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> >> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> >> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> >> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> >> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> >> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> >> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> >> our fields.”[18]
> >>
> >> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> >> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> >> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> >> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> >> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> >> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> >> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> >> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> >> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> >> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> >> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> >>
> >> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> >> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> >> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> >> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> >> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> >> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> >> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> >> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
> >>
> >> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> >> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> >> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> >> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> >> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> >> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> >> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> >> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> >> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> >> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> >> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> >> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> >> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> >>
> >> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> >> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> >> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> >> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> >> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> >> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> >> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> >> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> >> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> >> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> >> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> >> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> >> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> >> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> >> treatment.[28]
> >>
> >> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> >> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> >> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> >
> > Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> >
> >> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> >
> > That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> >
> > Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance..
> >
> > Try to stay on point.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Christ
> >
> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.

On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
>>>>
>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
>>>>
>>>> Let me elaborate.
>>>>
>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
>>>> capture what each has to say:
>>>>
>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
>>>> Gaza”[3]
>>>>
>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
>>>>
>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
>>>> stations.
>>>>
>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
>>>> food at all’.”[8]
>>>>
>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
>>>>
>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
>>>> members of Israel’s government.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
>>>> our fields.”[18]
>>>>
>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
>>>>
>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
>>>>
>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
>>>>
>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
>>>> treatment.[28]
>>>>
>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
>>>
>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
>>>
>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
>>>
>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
>>>
>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
>>>
>>> Try to stay on point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Christ
>>>
>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
>
> LOL
> just like all the other critics
> LOL
>
> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> --never engaging in rational discussion,
>
> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
>
> RH

Click here to read the complete article

On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> >>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> >>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> >>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> >>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> >>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> >>>>
> >>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> >>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> >>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> >>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> >>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> >>>> unfathomable.”[1]
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me elaborate.
> >>>>
> >>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> >>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> >>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> >>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> >>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> >>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> >>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> >>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> >>>>
> >>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> >>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> >>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> >>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> >>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> >>>> capture what each has to say:
> >>>>
> >>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> >>>> Gaza”[3]
> >>>>
> >>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> >>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> >>>>
> >>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> >>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> >>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> >>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> >>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> >>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> >>>>
> >>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> >>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> >>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> >>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> >>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> >>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> >>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> >>>> stations.
> >>>>
> >>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> >>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> >>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> >>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> >>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> >>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> >>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> >>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> >>>> food at all’.”[8]
> >>>>
> >>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> >>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> >>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> >>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> >>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> >>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> >>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> >>>>
> >>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> >>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> >>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> >>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> >>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible..”[12]
> >>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> >>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> >>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> >>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> >>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> >>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> >>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> >>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> >>>> members of Israel’s government.
> >>>>
> >>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> >>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> >>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> >>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> >>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> >>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> >>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> >>>> our fields.”[18]
> >>>>
> >>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> >>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> >>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> >>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> >>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> >>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> >>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> >>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> >>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> >>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> >>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> >>>>
> >>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> >>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> >>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> >>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> >>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> >>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> >>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> >>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
> >>>>
> >>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> >>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> >>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> >>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> >>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> >>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> >>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> >>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> >>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> >>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> >>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> >>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> >>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> >>>>
> >>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> >>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> >>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> >>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> >>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> >>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> >>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> >>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> >>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> >>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> >>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> >>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> >>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> >>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> >>>> treatment.[28]
> >>>>
> >>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> >>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> >>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> >>>
> >>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> >>>
> >>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> >>>
> >>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> >>>
> >>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
> >>>
> >>> Try to stay on point.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Michael Christ
> >>>
> >> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
> >
> > LOL
> > just like all the other critics
> > LOL
> >
> > --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> > --never engaging in rational discussion,
> >
> > Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
> >
> > RH
> Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
>
> Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?

raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 22. Dezember 2023 um 13:16:53 UTC+1:
> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> > >>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> > >>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> > >>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> > >>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> > >>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> > >>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> > >>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> > >>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> > >>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> > >>>> unfathomable.”[1]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Let me elaborate.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> > >>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> > >>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> > >>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> > >>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> > >>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> > >>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> > >>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> > >>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> > >>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> > >>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> > >>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> > >>>> capture what each has to say:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> > >>>> Gaza”[3]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> > >>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> > >>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> > >>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> > >>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> > >>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> > >>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> > >>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> > >>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> > >>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> > >>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> > >>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> > >>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> > >>>> stations.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> > >>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> > >>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> > >>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> > >>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> > >>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> > >>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> > >>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> > >>>> food at all’.”[8]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> > >>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> > >>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> > >>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> > >>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> > >>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> > >>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> > >>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> > >>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> > >>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> > >>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> > >>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> > >>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> > >>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> > >>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> > >>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> > >>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> > >>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> > >>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> > >>>> members of Israel’s government.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> > >>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> > >>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> > >>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> > >>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> > >>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> > >>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> > >>>> our fields.”[18]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> > >>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> > >>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> > >>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> > >>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> > >>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> > >>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> > >>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> > >>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> > >>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> > >>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> > >>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> > >>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> > >>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> > >>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> > >>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> > >>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> > >>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> > >>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> > >>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> > >>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> > >>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> > >>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> > >>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> > >>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> > >>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> > >>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> > >>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> > >>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> > >>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> > >>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> > >>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> > >>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> > >>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> > >>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> > >>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> > >>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> > >>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> > >>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> > >>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> > >>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> > >>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> > >>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> > >>>> treatment.[28]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> > >>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> > >>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> > >>>
> > >>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> > >>>
> > >>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> > >>>
> > >>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> > >>>
> > >>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
> > >>>
> > >>> Try to stay on point.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Michael Christ
> > >>>
> > >> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
> > >
> > > LOL
> > > just like all the other critics
> > > LOL
> > >
> > > --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> > > --never engaging in rational discussion,
> > >
> > > Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
> > >
> > > RH
> > Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
> >
> > Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
> You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 22. Dezember 2023 um 13:35:32 UTC+1:
> raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 22. Dezember 2023 um 13:16:53 UTC+1:
> > On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > >> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> > > >>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> > > >>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> > > >>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> > > >>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> > > >>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> > > >>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> > > >>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> > > >>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> > > >>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> > > >>>> unfathomable.”[1]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Let me elaborate.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> > > >>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> > > >>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> > > >>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> > > >>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> > > >>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> > > >>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> > > >>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> > > >>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> > > >>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> > > >>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> > > >>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> > > >>>> capture what each has to say:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> > > >>>> Gaza”[3]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> > > >>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> > > >>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> > > >>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> > > >>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> > > >>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> > > >>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> > > >>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> > > >>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> > > >>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> > > >>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> > > >>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> > > >>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> > > >>>> stations.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> > > >>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> > > >>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> > > >>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> > > >>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> > > >>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> > > >>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> > > >>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> > > >>>> food at all’.”[8]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> > > >>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> > > >>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> > > >>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> > > >>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> > > >>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> > > >>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> > > >>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> > > >>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> > > >>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> > > >>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> > > >>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> > > >>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> > > >>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> > > >>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> > > >>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> > > >>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> > > >>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> > > >>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> > > >>>> members of Israel’s government.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> > > >>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> > > >>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> > > >>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> > > >>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> > > >>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> > > >>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> > > >>>> our fields.”[18]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> > > >>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> > > >>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> > > >>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> > > >>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> > > >>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> > > >>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> > > >>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> > > >>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> > > >>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> > > >>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> > > >>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> > > >>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> > > >>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> > > >>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> > > >>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> > > >>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> > > >>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> > > >>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> > > >>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> > > >>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> > > >>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> > > >>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> > > >>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> > > >>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> > > >>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> > > >>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> > > >>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> > > >>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> > > >>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> > > >>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> > > >>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> > > >>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> > > >>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> > > >>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> > > >>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> > > >>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> > > >>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> > > >>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> > > >>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> > > >>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> > > >>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> > > >>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> > > >>>> treatment.[28]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> > > >>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> > > >>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> > > >>>
> > > >>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Try to stay on point.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Michael Christ
> > > >>>
> > > >> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
> > > >
> > > > LOL
> > > > just like all the other critics
> > > > LOL
> > > >
> > > > --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> > > > --never engaging in rational discussion,
> > > >
> > > > Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
> > > >
> > > > RH
> > > Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
> > >
> > > Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
> > You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.
> You are the on who is in denial.
> >
> > In fact I did name some links not too long ago and all you replied was that you didn't believe one word of any of the reports. Most stemmed from way before this present Gaza genocidal retaliation. I can always provide you with these reports, as there are simply an enormity of them, but as before, all you provide are instant outright denials. So expecting any rational discussion from you will never happen.
> >
> Again: There is no genocidal retaliation (I hope you realize, that the people in Gaza are not the only Arabs ;) ). You are the one being irrational here.

On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
>>>>
>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
>>>>
>>>> Let me elaborate.
>>>>
>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
>>>> capture what each has to say:
>>>>
>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
>>>> Gaza”[3]
>>>>
>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
>>>>
>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
>>>> stations.
>>>>
>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
>>>> food at all’.”[8]
>>>>
>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
>>>>
>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
>>>> members of Israel’s government.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
>>>> our fields.”[18]
>>>>
>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
>>>>
>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
>>>>
>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
>>>>
>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
>>>> treatment.[28]
>>>>
>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
>>>
>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
>>>
>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
>>>
>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
>>>
>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
>>>
>>> Try to stay on point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Christ
>>>
>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
>
> LOL
> just like all the other critics
> LOL
>
> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> --never engaging in rational discussion,
>
> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
>
> RH

On 12/22/2023 7:16 AM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
>>>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
>>>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
>>>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
>>>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
>>>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
>>>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
>>>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
>>>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
>>>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
>>>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me elaborate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
>>>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
>>>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
>>>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
>>>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
>>>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
>>>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
>>>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
>>>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
>>>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
>>>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
>>>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
>>>>>> capture what each has to say:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
>>>>>> Gaza”[3]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
>>>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
>>>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
>>>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
>>>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
>>>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
>>>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
>>>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
>>>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
>>>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
>>>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
>>>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
>>>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
>>>>>> stations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
>>>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
>>>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
>>>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
>>>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
>>>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
>>>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
>>>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
>>>>>> food at all’.”[8]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
>>>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
>>>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
>>>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
>>>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
>>>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
>>>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
>>>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
>>>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
>>>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
>>>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
>>>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
>>>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
>>>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
>>>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
>>>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
>>>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
>>>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
>>>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
>>>>>> members of Israel’s government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
>>>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
>>>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
>>>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
>>>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
>>>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
>>>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
>>>>>> our fields.”[18]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
>>>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
>>>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
>>>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
>>>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
>>>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
>>>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
>>>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
>>>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
>>>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
>>>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
>>>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
>>>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
>>>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
>>>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
>>>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
>>>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
>>>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
>>>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
>>>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
>>>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
>>>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
>>>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
>>>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
>>>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
>>>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
>>>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
>>>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
>>>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
>>>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
>>>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
>>>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
>>>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
>>>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
>>>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
>>>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
>>>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
>>>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
>>>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
>>>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
>>>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
>>>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
>>>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
>>>>>> treatment.[28]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
>>>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
>>>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
>>>>>
>>>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
>>>>>
>>>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
>>>>>
>>>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try to stay on point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Christ
>>>>>
>>>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
>>>
>>> LOL
>>> just like all the other critics
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
>>> --never engaging in rational discussion,
>>>
>>> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
>>>
>>> RH
>> Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
>>
>> Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
>
> You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.
>
> In fact I did name some links not too long ago and all you replied was that you didn't believe one word of any of the reports. Most stemmed from way before this present Gaza genocidal retaliation. I can always provide you with these reports, as there are simply an enormity of them, but as before, all you provide are instant outright denials. So expecting any rational discussion from you will never happen.
>
> I've also stated here before that with the extreme hardline governments that get entrenched in Israel, nothing wiil change. Only increased hatred, justified, from Israel's opponents. Israel is sewing the very seeds of its future destruction. Maybe one day it will wake up and look after its people who deserve better, with far more enlightened people in power. Maybe the present day penchant for extremist type fascist governments will wane, although it doesn't look likely with the present day need from fools for populist type leaders.
>
> RH

Click here to read the complete article

NOMEN NESCIO <NOBODY@DIZUM.COM> @ 2257 HOURS ON 23 DECEMBER 2023:
"CASUALTIES AS OF 22 DECEMBER 2023 IN GAZA: There never was an "ANCIENT
ISRAEL" all your lot could provide was some planted bones that were DNA
tested - from Poland."

DOLF @ 0707 HOURS ON 24 DECEMBER 2023: "In point of fact there is a
statement (if oracles then as temporal associative it is for all time: #400
= 146,097 % 22 --> #6000 = 13 SEPTEMBER 2001) which is evidence of that God
/ Israel relationship #164 - EXODUS 49J1W2D (49th JUBILEE + 9 YEARS) + 40
YEARS DESERT SOJOURN: "Wherefore I [did] ordain for thee the year-weeks and
the years and the jubilees: there are forty-nine jubilees from the days of
Adam until this day, and one week and two years and there are yet forty
years to come (literally “distant”) for learning the COMMANDMENTS OF THE
LORD, until they pass over into the LAND OF CANAAN, crossing the Jordan to
the *WEST*.

#266 - ONTIC CHECKSUM TOTAL: #104 as [#2, #1, #8, #200, #50, #5] =
ʼachărôwn (H314): {UMBRA: #265 % #41 = #19} 1) behind, following,
subsequent, western; 1a) behind, hindermost, *WESTERN* (*OF* *LOCATION*);
1b) later, subsequent, latter, last (of time);

#87 - ONTIC CHECKSUM TOTAL: #104 as [#30, #1, #6, #50] = ʼâven (H205):
{UMBRA: #57 % #41 = #16} 1) trouble, wickedness, sorrow; 1a) trouble,
sorrow; 1b) idolatry; 1c) *TROUBLE* *OF* *INIQUITY*, *WICKEDNESS*;

#746 - DEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #255 as [#70, #6, #50, #20, #600] = ʻâvôn
(H5771): {UMBRA: #126 % #41 = #3} 1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt
or punishment of iniquity; 1a) iniquity; 1b) *GUILT* *OF* *INIQUITY*, guilt
(as great), guilt (of condition); 1c) consequence of or punishment for
iniquity;

And the jubilees will pass by, until *ISRAEL* is cleansed from all *GUILT*
*OF* *FORNICATION*, and *UNCLEANNESS*, *AND* *POLLUTION*, *AND* *SIN*, and
error, and *DWELLETH* *WITH* *CONFIDENCE* *IN* *ALL* *THE* *LAND*, and
there will be no more a #351 - *SATAN* / *BELIAL* or any evil one, and the
land will be clean from that time for evermore.

And behold the commandment regarding the Sabbaths--I have written (them)
down for thee and all the JUDGMENTS OF ITS LAWS." [Book of Jubilees 50:4-6]

#41 (THESIS) - PRINCIPLE OF EMANATION / FORMULA OF UNIVERSAL LAW (REMEMBER
THE SABBATH) <-- METONIC 19 YEAR CYCLE: WEDNESDAY 20 MARCH 1901 - (5567 =
294 x 364 of 293 x 365.2423 tropical solar years) x 19 - 293 years = 40
YEARS from "SINCE-G575: THE WORLD-G165: BEGAN / BEFORE-G4253: THE
WORLD-G5550: BEGAN-G166:" [Luke 1:70; John 9:32; Acts 3:21; Romans 16:25;
2Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2]

#82 (ANTI-THESIS) - TERMS OF COMPLIANCE / FORMULA OF HUMANITY (HONOUR
PARENTS)

#123 (SYNTHESIS) - JUDGEMENT SENSIBILITY / FORMULA OF AUTONOMY (DO NOT
KILL) <-- DOMINION #65 + #41 + #17 = #123 SCHEMA OF ROMAN CATHOLIC / IRISH
REPUBLICAN ACTIVISM (IRA) / GERMAN NAZISM USURPER IMPETUS

#164 (PROGRESSION) - PRINCIPLE OF MATERIALITY / PROGRESSION OF INDIVIDUAL
PHENOMENON (AVOID HETERONOMY AGAINST AUTONOMY) / #328 - TRANSFORMATIONAL
PROTOTYPE (EXODUS 49J1W2D (49th JUBILEE + 9 YEARS) + 40 YEARS DESERT
SOJOURN / DOMINION: #492 - VOLUNTARY FREEWILL = 41 - ONTIC GROUNDING + #451
- PRAXIS OF RATIONALITY)

#205 (SYNTHESIS) - PRINCIPLE OF PERSISTENCE / #369 - HUMAN DISCRIMINATING
NORM (probity: DO NOT STEAL)

#246 (ANTI-THESIS) - UTTERANCE; ACTIONS / #410 - OBLIGATING NORM (rule
based: BEAR NO FALSE WITNESS)

#287 (THESIS) - NECESSITY (LAW OF DUTY) / #451 - MANIFESTING NORM (right or
privilege: DO NOT COVET) <-- *EXISTENTIAL* *VARIANCE* *AS* *PRAXIS* *OF*
*RATIONALITY*"

YOUTUBE: "MICHAEL W. SMITH - WAYMAKER (SINACH) FT. VANESSA CAMPAGNA &
MADELYN BERRY"

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE_M9noEhNE>

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJCV_2H9xD0>

GRAPPLE (502, 386)@[77, 27, 51, 74, 43, 10, 19, 15, 70] PROTOTYPE

<http://www.grapple369.com/Savvy/?date:2023.12.24&time:07.07&heuristic&male:502&feme:386&ontic:104&deme:255&idea:386>

{@9: Sup: 62 - DOUBT: YI (#502); Ego: 70 - SEVERANCE: KE (#386)}
#1196 - MALE CHECKSUM TOTAL: #502 as [#1, #80, #70, #20, #1, #300, #1,
#200, #300, #8, #200, #5, #10] /
#1196 - FEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #386 as [#1, #80, #70, #20, #1, #300, #1,
#200, #300, #8, #200, #5, #10] = apokathístēmi (G600): {UMBRA: #749 % #41 =
#11} 1) *TO* *RESTORE* *TO* *ITS* *FORMER* *STATE*; 2) to be in its former
state;

#386 as [#6, #40, #60, #80, #200] = miçpâr (H4557): {UMBRA: #380 % #41 =
#11} 1) *NUMBER*, *TALE*; 1a) number; 1a1) number; 1a2) innumerable (with
negative); 1a3) few, numerable (alone); 1a4) by count, in number, according
to number (with prep); 1b) recounting, relation;

ONTIC CHECKSUM TOTAL: #104

#442 - ONTIC CHECKSUM TOTAL: #104 as [#6, #1, #8, #7, #400, #20] =
ʼăchuzzâh (H272): {UMBRA: #21 % #41 = #21} 1) possession, property; 1a)
*LAND*; 1b) *POSSESSION* *BY* *INHERITANCE*;

#628 - ONTIC CHECKSUM TOTAL: #104 as [#400, #3, #10, #5, #10, #200] =
hygiḗs (G5199): {UMBRA: #621 % #41 = #6} 1) sound; 1a) *OF* *A* *MAN* *WHO*
*IS* *SOUND* *IN* *BODY*; 2) to make one whole i.e. restore him to health;
3) *METAPHOR* *TEACHING* *WHICH* *DOES* *NOT* *DEVIATE* *FROM* *THE*
*TRUTH*;

DEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #255

#305 - DEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #255 as [#5, #70, #200, #10, #20] /
#345 - DEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #255 as [#5, #70, #200, #20, #10, #40] = ʻârak
(H6186): {UMBRA: #290 % #41 = #3} 1) to arrange, set or put or lay in
order, set in array, prepare, order, ordain, handle, furnish, esteem,
equal, direct, compare; 1a) (Qal); 1a1) *TO* *ARRANGE* *OR* *SET* *OR*
*LAY* *IN* *ORDER*, *ARRANGE*, *STATE* *IN* *ORDER*, *SET* *FORTH* (*A*
*LEGAL* *CASE*), *SET* *IN* *PLACE*; 1a2) to compare, be comparable; 1b)
(Hiphil) to value, tax;

#422 - DEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #255 as [#50, #300, #2, #70] /
#478 - DEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #255 as [#50, #300, #2, #70, #50, #6] /
#822 - DEME CHECKSUM TOTAL: #255 as [#50, #300, #2, #70, #400] = shâbaʻ
(H7650): {UMBRA: #372 % #41 = #3} 1) to swear, adjure; 1a) (Qal) sworn
(participle); 1b) (Niphal); 1b1) to swear, take an oath; 1b2) *TO* *SWEAR*
(*OF* *JEHOVAH* *BY* *HIMSELF*); 1b3) to curse; 1c) (Hiphil); 1c1) to cause
to take an oath; 1c2) to adjure;

    #78 - ON THE VERGE (CHIANG) / NOUMENON RESONANCE FOR 24 DECEMBER 2023
as [#10, #2, #10, #50, #6] /
#502 as [#400, #2, #10, #50, #40] = bîyn (H995): {UMBRA: #62 % #41 = #21}
1) to discern, understand, consider; 1a) (Qal); 1a1) to perceive, discern;
1a2) *TO* *UNDERSTAND*, *KNOW* (*WITH* *THE* *MIND*); 1a3) to observe,
mark, give heed to, distinguish, consider; 1a4) to have discernment,
insight, understanding; 1b) (Niphal) to be discerning, intelligent,
discreet, have understanding; 1c) (Hiphil); 1c1) to understand; 1c2) to
cause to understand, give understanding, teach; 1d) (Hithpolel) *TO* *SHOW*
*ONESELF* *DISCERNING* *OR* *ATTENTIVE*, *CONSIDER* *DILIGENTLY*; 1e)
(Polel) to teach, instruct; 2) (TWOT) prudent, regard;

#51 - 𝌸常 = #502
cháng: 1. always; ever; often; frequently; *CONSTANTLY*, 2. Chang, 3.
long-lasting, 4. common; general; ordinary, 5. *A* *PRINCIPLE*; *A* *RULE*,
6. eternal; nitya --> *DAILY*

cháng wù (常務): [#51 - 𝌸常 = #502 / #26 - 𝌟務 = #477] - routine; everyday
business; daily operation (of a company)
shī cháng (失常): [#75 - 𝍐失 = #526 / #51 - 𝌸常 = #502] - not normal; an
aberration

#454 = TETRA #3 - MIRED (HSIEN) as [#400, #40, #10, #4] = tâmîyd (H8548):
{UMBRA: #454 % #41 = #3} 1) *CONTINUITY*, perpetuity, to stretch; 1a)
continually, continuously (as adverb); 1b) continuity (subst);

"YEA, HE MAGNIFIED HIMSELF EVEN TO THE PRINCE OF THE HOST, AND BY HIM THE
*DAILY*-H8548 SACRIFICE WAS TAKEN AWAY, AND THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUARY WAS
CAST DOWN." [Daniel 8:11]

WHERE #502 = #451 - PRAXIS OF RATIONALITY + #51 - CONSTANCY (CH'ANG):
"Following this immutable pattern, all subjects, including court officials,
must follow the ruler. Hierarchy functions as the necessary basis for
enduring and productive relations; as the Changes argues, the four seasons
keep to their constant course only when the "strong is above and the weak
below." Not surprisingly, the need to recognize one's proper place in the
hierarchy is a theme of this tetragram. So long as hierarchy is preserved,
the worst calamities associated with yin ch'i may be avoided. This may
explain why the penal code associated with the autumn season is represented
in a positive, rather than a negative light.

APPRAISAL #1: Holding up the ink­line of the gods (戴神墨),
He follows the sacred model.
Using the One to pair ten thousand,
To the end, his light does not fade.
FATHOMING #1: Upholding divine measure
Means: He embodies the form of the One.

dài (戴): 1. to put on; to wear, 2. to support; to carry; to be loaded with,
3. to cap; to put on top, 4. to praise, 5. *TO* *DEFEND*, 6. Dai

shén (神): 1. divine; mysterious; magical; supernatural, 2. *A* *DEITY*; *A*
*GOD*; *A* *SPIRITUAL* *BEING*, 3. spirit; will; attention, 4. soul;
spirit; divine essence, 5. expression, 6. a portrait, 7. a person with
supernatural powers, 8. Shen

mò (墨): 1. black ink; ink stick, 2. Mohism; Mo Zi, 3. *WRITING*, 4. ink, 5.
calligraphy, 6. ink punishment, 7. black, 8. corrupt

On Sunday 24 December 2023 at 16:19:06 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/22/2023 7:16 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> >>>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> >>>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> >>>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> >>>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> >>>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> >>>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> >>>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> >>>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> >>>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> >>>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let me elaborate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> >>>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> >>>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> >>>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> >>>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> >>>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> >>>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> >>>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> >>>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> >>>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> >>>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> >>>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> >>>>>> capture what each has to say:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> >>>>>> Gaza”[3]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> >>>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> >>>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> >>>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> >>>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> >>>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> >>>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> >>>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> >>>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> >>>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> >>>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> >>>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> >>>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> >>>>>> stations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> >>>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> >>>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> >>>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> >>>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> >>>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> >>>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> >>>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> >>>>>> food at all’.”[8]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> >>>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> >>>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> >>>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> >>>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> >>>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> >>>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> >>>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> >>>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> >>>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> >>>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> >>>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> >>>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> >>>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> >>>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> >>>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> >>>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> >>>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> >>>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> >>>>>> members of Israel’s government.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> >>>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> >>>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> >>>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> >>>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> >>>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> >>>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> >>>>>> our fields.”[18]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> >>>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> >>>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> >>>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> >>>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> >>>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> >>>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> >>>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> >>>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> >>>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> >>>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> >>>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> >>>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> >>>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> >>>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> >>>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> >>>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> >>>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> >>>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> >>>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> >>>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> >>>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> >>>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> >>>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> >>>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> >>>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> >>>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> >>>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> >>>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> >>>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> >>>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> >>>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> >>>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> >>>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> >>>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> >>>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> >>>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> >>>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> >>>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> >>>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> >>>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> >>>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> >>>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> >>>>>> treatment.[28]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> >>>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> >>>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Try to stay on point.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael Christ
> >>>>>
> >>>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
> >>>
> >>> LOL
> >>> just like all the other critics
> >>> LOL
> >>>
> >>> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> >>> --never engaging in rational discussion,
> >>>
> >>> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
> >>>
> >>> RH
> >> Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage).. What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
> >>
> >> Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
> >
> > You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.
> >
> > In fact I did name some links not too long ago and all you replied was that you didn't believe one word of any of the reports. Most stemmed from way before this present Gaza genocidal retaliation. I can always provide you with these reports, as there are simply an enormity of them, but as before, all you provide are instant outright denials. So expecting any rational discussion from you will never happen.
> >
> > I've also stated here before that with the extreme hardline governments that get entrenched in Israel, nothing wiil change. Only increased hatred, justified, from Israel's opponents. Israel is sewing the very seeds of its future destruction. Maybe one day it will wake up and look after its people who deserve better, with far more enlightened people in power. Maybe the present day penchant for extremist type fascist governments will wane, although it doesn't look likely with the present day need from fools for populist type leaders.
> >
> > RH
> Not a word that suggests Israel should do anything other than all the Jews leaving, whether marching into the sea or elsewhere,

raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 25. Dezember 2023 um 04:30:47 UTC+1:
> On Sunday 24 December 2023 at 16:19:06 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 12/22/2023 7:16 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >> On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >>>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> > >>>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> > >>>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> > >>>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> > >>>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> > >>>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> > >>>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> > >>>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> > >>>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> > >>>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> > >>>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Let me elaborate.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> > >>>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> > >>>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> > >>>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> > >>>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> > >>>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> > >>>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> > >>>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> > >>>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> > >>>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> > >>>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> > >>>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> > >>>>>> capture what each has to say:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> > >>>>>> Gaza”[3]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> > >>>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> > >>>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> > >>>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> > >>>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> > >>>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> > >>>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> > >>>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> > >>>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> > >>>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> > >>>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> > >>>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> > >>>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> > >>>>>> stations.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> > >>>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> > >>>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> > >>>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> > >>>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> > >>>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> > >>>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> > >>>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> > >>>>>> food at all’.”[8]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> > >>>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> > >>>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> > >>>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> > >>>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> > >>>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> > >>>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> > >>>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> > >>>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> > >>>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> > >>>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> > >>>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> > >>>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> > >>>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> > >>>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> > >>>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> > >>>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> > >>>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> > >>>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> > >>>>>> members of Israel’s government.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> > >>>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> > >>>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> > >>>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> > >>>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> > >>>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> > >>>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> > >>>>>> our fields.”[18]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> > >>>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> > >>>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> > >>>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> > >>>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> > >>>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> > >>>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> > >>>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> > >>>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> > >>>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> > >>>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> > >>>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> > >>>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> > >>>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> > >>>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> > >>>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> > >>>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> > >>>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> > >>>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> > >>>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> > >>>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> > >>>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> > >>>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> > >>>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> > >>>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> > >>>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> > >>>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> > >>>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> > >>>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> > >>>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> > >>>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> > >>>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> > >>>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> > >>>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> > >>>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> > >>>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> > >>>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> > >>>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> > >>>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> > >>>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> > >>>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> > >>>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> > >>>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> > >>>>>> treatment.[28]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> > >>>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> > >>>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Try to stay on point.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Michael Christ
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
> > >>>
> > >>> LOL
> > >>> just like all the other critics
> > >>> LOL
> > >>>
> > >>> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> > >>> --never engaging in rational discussion,
> > >>>
> > >>> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
> > >>>
> > >>> RH
> > >> Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
> > >>
> > >> Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
> > >
> > > You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.
> > >
> > > In fact I did name some links not too long ago and all you replied was that you didn't believe one word of any of the reports. Most stemmed from way before this present Gaza genocidal retaliation. I can always provide you with these reports, as there are simply an enormity of them, but as before, all you provide are instant outright denials. So expecting any rational discussion from you will never happen.
> > >
> > > I've also stated here before that with the extreme hardline governments that get entrenched in Israel, nothing wiil change. Only increased hatred, justified, from Israel's opponents. Israel is sewing the very seeds of its future destruction. Maybe one day it will wake up and look after its people who deserve better, with far more enlightened people in power. Maybe the present day penchant for extremist type fascist governments will wane, although it doesn't look likely with the present day need from fools for populist type leaders.
> > >
> > > RH
> > Not a word that suggests Israel should do anything other than all the Jews leaving, whether marching into the sea or elsewhere,
> Am I supposed to discuss everything under the sun, that is not relevant to your immediate question? And please don't include the many Jews in all countries who are protesting for a ceasefire. They don't associate with you.
>
> -- I don't imagine you care.
>
> About the thuggish regime in Israel, of course not. Or any other right wing fascist junta.

On 12/24/2023 10:30 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday 24 December 2023 at 16:19:06 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 12/22/2023 7:16 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
>>>>>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
>>>>>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
>>>>>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
>>>>>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
>>>>>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
>>>>>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
>>>>>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
>>>>>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
>>>>>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
>>>>>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me elaborate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
>>>>>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
>>>>>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
>>>>>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
>>>>>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
>>>>>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
>>>>>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
>>>>>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
>>>>>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
>>>>>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
>>>>>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
>>>>>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
>>>>>>>> capture what each has to say:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
>>>>>>>> Gaza”[3]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
>>>>>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
>>>>>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
>>>>>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
>>>>>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
>>>>>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
>>>>>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
>>>>>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
>>>>>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
>>>>>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
>>>>>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
>>>>>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
>>>>>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
>>>>>>>> stations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
>>>>>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
>>>>>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
>>>>>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
>>>>>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
>>>>>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
>>>>>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
>>>>>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
>>>>>>>> food at all’.”[8]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
>>>>>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
>>>>>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
>>>>>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
>>>>>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
>>>>>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
>>>>>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
>>>>>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
>>>>>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
>>>>>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
>>>>>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
>>>>>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
>>>>>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
>>>>>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
>>>>>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
>>>>>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
>>>>>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
>>>>>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
>>>>>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
>>>>>>>> members of Israel’s government.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
>>>>>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
>>>>>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
>>>>>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
>>>>>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
>>>>>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
>>>>>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
>>>>>>>> our fields.”[18]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
>>>>>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
>>>>>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
>>>>>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
>>>>>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
>>>>>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
>>>>>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
>>>>>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
>>>>>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
>>>>>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
>>>>>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
>>>>>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
>>>>>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
>>>>>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
>>>>>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
>>>>>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
>>>>>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
>>>>>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
>>>>>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
>>>>>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
>>>>>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
>>>>>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
>>>>>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
>>>>>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
>>>>>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
>>>>>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
>>>>>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
>>>>>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
>>>>>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
>>>>>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
>>>>>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
>>>>>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
>>>>>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
>>>>>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
>>>>>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
>>>>>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
>>>>>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
>>>>>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
>>>>>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
>>>>>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
>>>>>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
>>>>>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
>>>>>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
>>>>>>>> treatment.[28]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
>>>>>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
>>>>>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Try to stay on point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Christ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL
>>>>> just like all the other critics
>>>>> LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
>>>>> --never engaging in rational discussion,
>>>>>
>>>>> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
>>>>>
>>>>> RH
>>>> Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
>>>>
>>>> Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
>>>
>>> You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.
>>>
>>> In fact I did name some links not too long ago and all you replied was that you didn't believe one word of any of the reports. Most stemmed from way before this present Gaza genocidal retaliation. I can always provide you with these reports, as there are simply an enormity of them, but as before, all you provide are instant outright denials. So expecting any rational discussion from you will never happen.
>>>
>>> I've also stated here before that with the extreme hardline governments that get entrenched in Israel, nothing wiil change. Only increased hatred, justified, from Israel's opponents. Israel is sewing the very seeds of its future destruction. Maybe one day it will wake up and look after its people who deserve better, with far more enlightened people in power. Maybe the present day penchant for extremist type fascist governments will wane, although it doesn't look likely with the present day need from fools for populist type leaders.
>>>
>>> RH
>> Not a word that suggests Israel should do anything other than all the Jews leaving, whether marching into the sea or elsewhere,
>
> Am I supposed to discuss everything under the sun, that is not relevant to your immediate question? And please don't include the many Jews in all countries who are protesting for a ceasefire. They don't associate with you.
>
> -- I don't imagine you care.
>
> About the thuggish regime in Israel, of course not. Or any other right wing fascist junta.
>
> --I don't know what you posted before.
>
> Then look it up. Do some work.
>
> --And I'm still waiting for what you think Israel should have done after Oct. 7.
>
> I have already said that the response is grossly extended beyond anything other than what one would expect from the thugs presently in power in Israel.
>
> -- You just spout tired memes and accusations. You are boring.
>
> Then don't read my posts, but coming from yourself, THE most staid and boring poster here, i think you coming across a bit rich. But for you, the truth will always be boring.
>
> RH

Click here to read the complete article

On Tuesday 26 December 2023 at 14:01:16 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 10:30 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday 24 December 2023 at 16:19:06 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 12/22/2023 7:16 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>> On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> >>>>>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> >>>>>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> >>>>>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> >>>>>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> >>>>>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> >>>>>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> >>>>>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> >>>>>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> >>>>>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Let me elaborate.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> >>>>>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> >>>>>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> >>>>>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> >>>>>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> >>>>>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> >>>>>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> >>>>>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> >>>>>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> >>>>>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> >>>>>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> >>>>>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> >>>>>>>> capture what each has to say:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> >>>>>>>> Gaza”[3]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> >>>>>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> >>>>>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> >>>>>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> >>>>>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> >>>>>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> >>>>>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> >>>>>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> >>>>>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> >>>>>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> >>>>>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> >>>>>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> >>>>>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> >>>>>>>> stations.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> >>>>>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> >>>>>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> >>>>>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> >>>>>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> >>>>>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> >>>>>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> >>>>>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> >>>>>>>> food at all’.”[8]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> >>>>>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> >>>>>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> >>>>>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> >>>>>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> >>>>>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> >>>>>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> >>>>>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> >>>>>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> >>>>>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> >>>>>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> >>>>>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> >>>>>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> >>>>>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> >>>>>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> >>>>>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> >>>>>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> >>>>>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> >>>>>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> >>>>>>>> members of Israel’s government.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> >>>>>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> >>>>>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> >>>>>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> >>>>>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> >>>>>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> >>>>>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> >>>>>>>> our fields.”[18]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> >>>>>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> >>>>>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> >>>>>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> >>>>>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> >>>>>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> >>>>>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> >>>>>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> >>>>>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> >>>>>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> >>>>>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> >>>>>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> >>>>>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> >>>>>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> >>>>>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> >>>>>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> >>>>>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> >>>>>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters.[23]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> >>>>>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> >>>>>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> >>>>>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> >>>>>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> >>>>>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> >>>>>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> >>>>>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> >>>>>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> >>>>>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> >>>>>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> >>>>>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> >>>>>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> >>>>>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> >>>>>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> >>>>>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> >>>>>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> >>>>>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> >>>>>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> >>>>>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> >>>>>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> >>>>>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> >>>>>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> >>>>>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> >>>>>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> >>>>>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> >>>>>>>> treatment.[28]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> >>>>>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> >>>>>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Try to stay on point.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Michael Christ
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> LOL
> >>>>> just like all the other critics
> >>>>> LOL
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> >>>>> --never engaging in rational discussion,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
> >>>>>
> >>>>> RH
> >>>> Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
> >>>
> >>> You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.
> >>>
> >>> In fact I did name some links not too long ago and all you replied was that you didn't believe one word of any of the reports. Most stemmed from way before this present Gaza genocidal retaliation. I can always provide you with these reports, as there are simply an enormity of them, but as before, all you provide are instant outright denials. So expecting any rational discussion from you will never happen.
> >>>
> >>> I've also stated here before that with the extreme hardline governments that get entrenched in Israel, nothing wiil change. Only increased hatred, justified, from Israel's opponents. Israel is sewing the very seeds of its future destruction. Maybe one day it will wake up and look after its people who deserve better, with far more enlightened people in power. Maybe the present day penchant for extremist type fascist governments will wane, although it doesn't look likely with the present day need from fools for populist type leaders.
> >>>
> >>> RH
> >> Not a word that suggests Israel should do anything other than all the Jews leaving, whether marching into the sea or elsewhere,
> >
> > Am I supposed to discuss everything under the sun, that is not relevant to your immediate question? And please don't include the many Jews in all countries who are protesting for a ceasefire. They don't associate with you..
> >
> > -- I don't imagine you care.
> >
> > About the thuggish regime in Israel, of course not. Or any other right wing fascist junta.
> >
> > --I don't know what you posted before.
> >
> > Then look it up. Do some work.
> >
> > --And I'm still waiting for what you think Israel should have done after Oct. 7.
> >
> > I have already said that the response is grossly extended beyond anything other than what one would expect from the thugs presently in power in Israel.
> >
> > -- You just spout tired memes and accusations. You are boring.
> >
> > Then don't read my posts, but coming from yourself, THE most staid and boring poster here, i think you coming across a bit rich. But for you, the truth will always be boring.
> >
> > RH
> What do you think a Leftist Israeli government would have done in response to Oct 7?

raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 26. Dezember 2023 um 05:47:52 UTC+1:
> On Tuesday 26 December 2023 at 14:01:16 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 12/24/2023 10:30 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday 24 December 2023 at 16:19:06 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >> On 12/22/2023 7:16 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 15:19:44 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >>>> On 12/21/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 06:50:11 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 12/21/2023 3:14 AM, Michael Christ wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 21/12/2023 3:15 pm, NefeshBarYochai wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> by JOHN J. MEARSHEIMER
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza
> > >>>>>>>> will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict. But I want to
> > >>>>>>>> be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity,
> > >>>>>>>> they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> What Israel is doing in Gaza to the Palestinian civilian population –
> > >>>>>>>> with the support of the Biden administration – is a crime against
> > >>>>>>>> humanity that serves no meaningful military purpose. As J-Street, an
> > >>>>>>>> important organization in the Israel lobby, puts it, “The scope of
> > >>>>>>>> the unfolding humanitarian disaster and civilian casualties is nearly
> > >>>>>>>> unfathomable.”[1]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Let me elaborate.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> First, Israel is purposely massacring huge number of civilians,
> > >>>>>>>> roughly 70 percent of whom are children and women. The claim that
> > >>>>>>>> Israel is going to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties is
> > >>>>>>>> belied by statements from high level Israeli officials. For example,
> > >>>>>>>> the IDF spokesman said on 10 October 2023 that "the emphasis is on
> > >>>>>>>> damage and not on accuracy." That same day, Defense Minister Yoav
> > >>>>>>>> Gallant announced: "I have lowered all the restraints – we will kill
> > >>>>>>>> everyone we fight against; we will use every means."[2]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Moreover, it is clear from the results of the bombing campaign that
> > >>>>>>>> Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. Two detailed studies of
> > >>>>>>>> the IDF’s bombing campaign – both published in Israeli outlets –
> > >>>>>>>> explain in detail how Israel is murdering huge numbers of civilians.
> > >>>>>>>> It is worth quoting the titles of the two pieces, which succinctly
> > >>>>>>>> capture what each has to say:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> “‘A Mass Assassination Factory’: Inside Israel’s Calculated Bombing of
> > >>>>>>>> Gaza”[3]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> “The Israeli Army Has Dropped the Restraint in Gaza, and the Data
> > >>>>>>>> Shows Unprecedented Killing.”[4]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Similarly, the New York Times published an article in late November
> > >>>>>>>> 2023 titled: “Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed
> > >>>>>>>> at Historic Pace.”[5] Thus, it is hardly surprising that the UN
> > >>>>>>>> Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, said that “We are witnessing a
> > >>>>>>>> killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any
> > >>>>>>>> conflict since” his appointment in January 2017.[6]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Second, Israel is purposely starving the desperate Palestinian
> > >>>>>>>> population by greatly limiting the amount of food, fuel, cooking gas,
> > >>>>>>>> medicine, and water that can be brought into Gaza. Moreover, medical
> > >>>>>>>> care is extremely hard to come by for a population that now includes
> > >>>>>>>> approximately 50,000 wounded civilians. Not only has Israel greatly
> > >>>>>>>> limited the supply of fuel into Gaza, which hospitals need to
> > >>>>>>>> function, but it has targeted hospitals, ambulances, and first aid
> > >>>>>>>> stations.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Defense Minister Gallant’s comment on 9 October captures Israeli
> > >>>>>>>> policy: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will
> > >>>>>>>> be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are
> > >>>>>>>> fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."[7] Israel has
> > >>>>>>>> been forced to allow minimal supplies into Gaza, but the amounts are
> > >>>>>>>> so small that a senior UN official reports that “half of Gaza’s
> > >>>>>>>> population is starving.” He goes on to report that, “Nine out of 10
> > >>>>>>>> families in some areas are spending ‘a full day and night without any
> > >>>>>>>> food at all’.”[8]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Third, Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would
> > >>>>>>>> like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider
> > >>>>>>>> that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of
> > >>>>>>>> the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent
> > >>>>>>>> Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has
> > >>>>>>>> “genocidal intent.”[9] Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide
> > >>>>>>>> studies have offered a similar warning.[10]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to
> > >>>>>>>> Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman
> > >>>>>>>> animals.”[11] And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those
> > >>>>>>>> leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his
> > >>>>>>>> words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.”[12]
> > >>>>>>>> Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal
> > >>>>>>>> Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or
> > >>>>>>>> “destroyed.”[13] One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza
> > >>>>>>>> will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the
> > >>>>>>>> case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring
> > >>>>>>>> victory closer.”[14] Going even further, a minister in the Israeli
> > >>>>>>>> government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza.[15] These
> > >>>>>>>> statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior
> > >>>>>>>> members of Israel’s government.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and
> > >>>>>>>> the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba.[16] To quote
> > >>>>>>>> Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza
> > >>>>>>>> Nakba.”[17]Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which
> > >>>>>>>> Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a
> > >>>>>>>> blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within
> > >>>>>>>> a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow
> > >>>>>>>> our fields.”[18]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Fourth, Israel is not just killing, wounding, and starving huge
> > >>>>>>>> numbers of Palestinians, it is also systematically destroying their
> > >>>>>>>> homes as well as critical infrastructure – to include mosques,
> > >>>>>>>> schools, heritage sites, libraries, key government buildings, and
> > >>>>>>>> hospitals.[19] As of 1 December 2023, the IDF had damaged or destroyed
> > >>>>>>>> almost 100,000 buildings, including entire neighborhoods that have
> > >>>>>>>> been reduced to rubble.[20] Consequently, a stunning 90 percent of
> > >>>>>>>> Gaza’s 2.3 million Palestinians have been displaced from their
> > >>>>>>>> homes.[21] Moreover, Israel is making a concerted effort to destroy
> > >>>>>>>> Gaza’s cultural heritage; as NPR reports, “more than 100 Gaza heritage
> > >>>>>>>> sites have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.”[22]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Fifth, Israel is not just terrorizing and killing Palestinians, it is
> > >>>>>>>> also publicly humiliating many of their men who have been rounded up
> > >>>>>>>> by the IDF in routine searches. Israeli soldiers strip them down to
> > >>>>>>>> their underwear, blindfold them, and display them in a public way in
> > >>>>>>>> their neighborhoods – sitting them down in large groups in the middle
> > >>>>>>>> of the street, for example, or parading them through the streets –
> > >>>>>>>> before taking them away in trucks to detention camps. In most cases,
> > >>>>>>>> the detainees are then released as they are not Hamas fighters..[23]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Sixth, although the Israelis are doing the slaughtering, they could
> > >>>>>>>> not do it without the Biden administration’s support. Not only was the
> > >>>>>>>> United States the only country to vote against a recent UN Security
> > >>>>>>>> Council resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but it
> > >>>>>>>> has also been providing Israel with the weaponry necessary to wage
> > >>>>>>>> this massacre.[24] As one Israeli general (Yitzhak Brick) recently
> > >>>>>>>> made clear: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided
> > >>>>>>>> bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S. The minute
> > >>>>>>>> they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no
> > >>>>>>>> capability.… Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without
> > >>>>>>>> the United States. Period.”[25] Remarkably, the Biden administration
> > >>>>>>>> has sought to expedite sending Israel additional ammunition,
> > >>>>>>>> by-passing the normal procedures of the Arms Export Control Act.[26]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Seventh, while most of the focus is now on Gaza, it is important not
> > >>>>>>>> to lose sight of what is simultaneously going on in the West Bank.
> > >>>>>>>> Israeli settlers, working closely with the IDF, continue to kill
> > >>>>>>>> innocent Palestinians and steal their land. In an excellent article in
> > >>>>>>>> the New York Review of Books describing these horrors, David Shulman
> > >>>>>>>> relates a conversation he had with a settler, which clearly reflects
> > >>>>>>>> the moral dimension of Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians. “What
> > >>>>>>>> we are doing to these people is actually inhuman,” the settler freely
> > >>>>>>>> admits, “But if you think about it clearly, it all follows inevitably
> > >>>>>>>> from the fact that God promised this land to the Jews, and only to
> > >>>>>>>> them.”[27] Along with its assault on Gaza, the Israel government has
> > >>>>>>>> markedly increased the number of arbitrary arrests in the West Bank.
> > >>>>>>>> According to Amnesty International, there is considerable evidence
> > >>>>>>>> that these prisoners have been tortured and subjected to degrading
> > >>>>>>>> treatment.[28]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> As I watch this catastrophe for the Palestinians unfold, I am left
> > >>>>>>>> with one simple question for Israel’s leaders, their American
> > >>>>>>>> defenders, and the Biden administration: have you no decency?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Will you ask the same question to the October 7thers?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> That is not going to happen. Utopia in the world has never been an option since the fall.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hey, Buddy, it is obvious that it is all about punishment and vengeance.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Try to stay on point.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Michael Christ
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Mearsheiner is a well-known Israel critic. His post is full of factual errors and bias.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> LOL
> > >>>>> just like all the other critics
> > >>>>> LOL
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --Being politically incorrect to voice these underlying opinions, they resort to Israel Bashing
> > >>>>> --never engaging in rational discussion,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Odd then that you refuse to to engage in discussion of the 1000s of reports of Israeli war crimes that stand before all international bodies and institutions. What a hypocrite you are. One could flood this ng with the details if you so desire
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> RH
> > >>>> Denying the truth of an allegation is not refusing to engage. The charge that the Israeli response to Oct 7 is a war crime is false and can be demonstrated to be false. Because the anti-Israel crowd says so doesn't make it so. The Geneva Conventions say that combatants can not embed their forces amid civilian populations or facilities. No one can possibly dispute that Hamas and their ilk do this routinely. That is a war crime. If your opponent does do this, you are allowed to attack them where they are, and if civilian casualties occur, that is unfortunate and possibly horrifying, but it is not a war crime. The Hamas attack (and the near certainty of more such attacks) and the rocket attacks from Hezbollah have made large areas of the north and south of Israel uninhabitable. These groups present an existential threat to Israel and no Israeli government (Left, Right or Center) could fail to respond as Israel has. The charges of lack of proportionality are meant to carry a legal implication. This is false, since proportionality means not using force in excess of what you need to use to accomplish your objective. You or someone may think Israel's response is excessive (based on what metric, I don't know). But that doesn't make it a war crime. Charges from Israel's enemies that they target civilians ridiculous. They target Hamas forces and facilities. It's so obvious, I can't understand how it needs to be explained. I will ask you what I asked Andy (and he refused to engage). What is it that you would have had Israel do after Oct. 7? Kill a random 1200 and kidnap a random couple of hundred Gazans as a proportional response?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thousands of reports of Israeli war crimes? Name some and we'll discuss it. What international body has found Israel to be guilty of war crimes?
> > >>>
> > >>> You will never discuss them. All you will rely with are wholesale denials from an overwhelmingly mountainous amount of evidence.
> > >>>
> > >>> In fact I did name some links not too long ago and all you replied was that you didn't believe one word of any of the reports. Most stemmed from way before this present Gaza genocidal retaliation. I can always provide you with these reports, as there are simply an enormity of them, but as before, all you provide are instant outright denials. So expecting any rational discussion from you will never happen.
> > >>>
> > >>> I've also stated here before that with the extreme hardline governments that get entrenched in Israel, nothing wiil change. Only increased hatred, justified, from Israel's opponents. Israel is sewing the very seeds of its future destruction. Maybe one day it will wake up and look after its people who deserve better, with far more enlightened people in power. Maybe the present day penchant for extremist type fascist governments will wane, although it doesn't look likely with the present day need from fools for populist type leaders.
> > >>>
> > >>> RH
> > >> Not a word that suggests Israel should do anything other than all the Jews leaving, whether marching into the sea or elsewhere,
> > >
> > > Am I supposed to discuss everything under the sun, that is not relevant to your immediate question? And please don't include the many Jews in all countries who are protesting for a ceasefire. They don't associate with you.
> > >
> > > -- I don't imagine you care.
> > >
> > > About the thuggish regime in Israel, of course not. Or any other right wing fascist junta.
> > >
> > > --I don't know what you posted before.
> > >
> > > Then look it up. Do some work.
> > >
> > > --And I'm still waiting for what you think Israel should have done after Oct. 7.
> > >
> > > I have already said that the response is grossly extended beyond anything other than what one would expect from the thugs presently in power in Israel.
> > >
> > > -- You just spout tired memes and accusations. You are boring.
> > >
> > > Then don't read my posts, but coming from yourself, THE most staid and boring poster here, i think you coming across a bit rich. But for you, the truth will always be boring.
> > >
> > > RH
> > What do you think a Leftist Israeli government would have done in response to Oct 7?
> I am not a mindreader, but it isn't solely a question of this present government, but a long evolution as a result of many previous such governments, which led to a continued line of behaviour that we now presently witness. There exists a belligerence towards others which is born of the WWII holocast, and which while understandable, doesn't translate well into the present era, where dictators are now back in vogue. I have never said the problem is an easy one to solve, but it isn't that difficult to see how tensions could have been much reduced than are present today, with a subsequent reduction of many lost lives.
>
> RH

Ray is woke to death.