Fournier is still the best in Bach cello suites.

JudeoN4zi wrote:

> Fournier is still the best in
> Bach cello suites.

I would suggest hearing Tortelier,
Shafran and Gaspar Cassado before
coming to any conclusion. I would
also suggest NOT LISTENING to Oy
Oy Ma or Janos Starker so you don't
get sick and disgurgitate all your
investment in Haloperidol! ;-)

Tortelier:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfSYmd_jymd4p2zmeKq71D4X

Cassado:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfT-KgKjglqCwNKWelCcJhyR

Shafran:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuOCFjLFfx-u4ohcMnEa-Qa_i06OAaIQW

Maisky:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfS4ET5aH_BMEgf0Mek9UccY

Please let us know who sucks and
who doesn't.

Cheers!

DeepBlue wrote:

> JudeoN4zi wrote:

>> Fournier is still the best in
>> Bach cello suites.

> I would suggest hearing Tortelier,
> Shafran and Gaspar Cassado before
> coming to any conclusion. I would
> also suggest NOT LISTENING to Oy
> Oy Ma or Janos Starker so you don't
> get sick and disgurgitate all your
> investment in Haloperidol! ;-)

> Tortelier:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfSYmd_jymd4p2zmeKq71D4X

Can't remember, but I listened to him. Will relisten. It's actually been a while since I compared them (and I didn't compare thoroughly).

> Cassado:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfT-KgKjglqCwNKWelCcJhyR

Same.

> Shafran:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuOCFjLFfx-u4ohcMnEa-Qa_i06OAaIQW

Sucks. I know you saw him live ;)

> Maisky:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfS4ET5aH_BMEgf0Mek9UccY

Sucks. At least I remember not liking it.

And Queryas sucks as well. Yo Yo Ma too.

> Please let us know who sucks and
> who doesn't.

> Cheers!

As I said before, I think for me Fournier is best - will revisit some others though.

JudeoN4zi wrote:

> As I said before, I think for me Fournier
> is best - will revisit some others though.

What do you like in Fournier that you don't
like in others? Please follow up in 5 words
or more! ;-)

Cheers!

JudeoN4zi wrote:

> DeepBlue wrote:

>> JudeoN4zi wrote:

>>> Fournier is still the best in
>>> Bach cello suites.

>> I would suggest hearing Tortelier,
>> Shafran and Gaspar Cassado before
>> coming to any conclusion. I would
>> also suggest NOT LISTENING to Oy
>> Oy Ma or Janos Starker so you don't
>> get sick and disgurgitate all your
>> investment in Haloperidol! ;-)

>> Tortelier:
>> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfSYmd_jymd4p2zmeKq71D4X

> Can't remember, but I listened to him. Will relisten. It's actually been a while since I compared them (and I didn't compare thoroughly).

>> Cassado:
>> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Hi9pw3gEfT-KgKjglqCwNKWelCcJhyR

> Same.

>> Shafran:
>> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuOCFjLFfx-u4ohcMnEa-Qa_i06OAaIQW

> Sucks. I know you saw him live ;)

I also saw (and heard!) Tortelier,
Fournier, Cassado, Shafran, Slava,
Gendron, Casals, Wallfisch and a
few others live. Maurice Maréchal
was expected to perform at the
1964 George Enescu Festival in
Bucharest but passed a couple
of months before the event.

Thx

DeepBlue wrote:

> I also saw (and heard!) Tortelier,
> Fournier, Cassado, Shafran, Slava,
> Gendron, Casals, Wallfisch and a
> few others live. Maurice Maréchal
> was expected to perform at the
> 1964 George Enescu Festival in
> Bucharest but passed a couple
> of months before the event.

Of the ones mentioned in this thread I only haven't listened to Wallfisch, Gendron and Maréchal. I'd also like to hear Peter Grümmer and Paul Burger - seems to be hard to get.

So far - and I haven't listened too much, but still I'm quite certain about the ones I don't like - my ranking would probably be like:

1) Fournier
2) Tortelier
3) Shafran and maybe Maisky

The rest is out of question.

> Thx

DeepBlue wrote:

> JudeoN4zi wrote:

>> As I said before, I think for me Fournier
>> is best - will revisit some others though.

> What do you like in Fournier that you don't
> like in others? Please follow up in 5 words
> or more! ;-)

Actually - in reference to my last message - I think I'd maybe rate Shafran above Tortelier; ya I think so... anyway not through with this yet.

I wish I could point things out in the score, but honestly... it's just phrasing and tone which makes me like him more than the others...

Starker seemed very mechanic to me, no feeling etc. Cassado had horrible phrasing and tone... etc etc

Then I also compare passages which I like very much... hear how Fournier phrases this part in Bach Cello suite 6 Gavotte 2 compared to Casals (with Fournier you are sort of being carried away, like a bird that has been set free - with Casals... he is raping this part...)

Fournier:

https://youtu.be/ga8rF3ZTOyA?si=lAxgZXInRFkAuj8e&t=1272 (The part I mean starts at 21:21)

Casals (the part starts at 21:48):

https://youtu.be/gG2Py1XBXew?si=c_LbqsPw7OX2I6RB&t=1299

> Cheers!

JudeoN4zi wrote:

> DeepBlue wrote:

>> JudeoN4zi wrote:

>>> As I said before, I think for me Fournier
>>> is best - will revisit some others though.

>> What do you like in Fournier that you don't
>> like in others? Please follow up in 5 words
>> or more! ;-)

> Actually - in reference to my last message - I think I'd maybe rate Shafran above Tortelier; ya I think so... anyway not through with this yet.

> I wish I could point things out in the score, but honestly... it's just phrasing and tone which makes me like him more than the others...

> Starker seemed very mechanic to me, no feeling etc. Cassado had horrible phrasing and tone... etc etc

> Then I also compare passages which I like very much... hear how Fournier phrases this part in Bach Cello suite 6 Gavotte 2 compared to Casals (with Fournier you are sort of being carried away, like a bird that has been set free - with Casals... he is raping this part...)

> Fournier:

> https://youtu.be/ga8rF3ZTOyA?si=lAxgZXInRFkAuj8e&t=1272 (The part I mean starts at 21:21)

There is yearning and longing expressed here, to be as free as the bird that has been set free (musically) ;) (I remember Shafran also being similar here)

> Casals (the part starts at 21:48):

> https://youtu.be/gG2Py1XBXew?si=c_LbqsPw7OX2I6RB&t=1299

>> Cheers!

JudeoN4zi wrote:

> DeepBlue wrote:

>> JudeoN4zi wrote:

>>> As I said before, I think for me Fournier
>>> is best - will revisit some others though.

>> What do you like in Fournier that you don't
>> like in others? Please follow up in 5 words
>> or more! ;-)

> Actually - in reference to my last message - I
> think I'd maybe rate Shafran above Tortelier;
> ya I think so... anyway not through with this
> yet.

Difficult to choose between them. Different
sound, different styles, both very fluid and
engaging, Shafran more intimate and Tortelier
projecting a bigger sound. They both recorded
(or were recorded) performing the suites more
than once and the comparison becomes even more
complicated.

> I wish I could point things out in the score,

I wasn't asking about the score. I am asking
about general impressions.

> but honestly... it's just phrasing and tone
> which makes me like him more than the others...

> Starker seemed very mechanic to me, no feeling
> etc.

Starker was a Jewish Hungarian Nazi. Boots on
the bbow and boots on the strings, all driven
by a metronome.

> Cassado had horrible phrasing and tone... etc

Not when I heard him. He had an amazing round,
mellow tone that only Shafran came close to.

> Then I also compare passages which I like very
> much... hear how Fournier phrases this part in
> Bach Cello suite 6 Gavotte 2 compared to Casals
> (with Fournier you are sort of being carried away,
> like a bird that has been set free - with Casals...
> he is raping this part...)

> Fournier:

> https://youtu.be/ga8rF3ZTOyA?si=lAxgZXInRFkAuj8e&t=1272 (The part I mean starts at 21:21)

> Casals (the part starts at 21:48):

> https://youtu.be/gG2Py1XBXew?si=c_LbqsPw7OX2I6RB&t=1299

Casals was a pedantic literalist.

One can always add a starting timemark to the URL
by appending "&t=XXXs" where XXX is the number of
seconds from the start.

DeepBlue wrote:

> JudeoN4zi wrote:

>> DeepBlue wrote:

>>> JudeoN4zi wrote:

>>>> As I said before, I think for me Fournier
>>>> is best - will revisit some others though.

>>> What do you like in Fournier that you don't
>>> like in others? Please follow up in 5 words
>>> or more! ;-)

>> Actually - in reference to my last message - I
>> think I'd maybe rate Shafran above Tortelier;
>> ya I think so... anyway not through with this
>> yet.

> Difficult to choose between them. Different
> sound, different styles, both very fluid and
> engaging, Shafran more intimate and Tortelier
> projecting a bigger sound. They both recorded
> (or were recorded) performing the suites more
> than once and the comparison becomes even more
> complicated.

Yeah, I think you are right in that Shafran's playing is more intimate, while Tortelier is more analytical/less romantic. Not sure about the bigger sound though, Shafran seemed to have more vibrato and he sounded heavier than Tortelier.

>> I wish I could point things out in the score,

> I wasn't asking about the score. I am asking
> about general impressions.

The problem with general impressions is that they confuse me more than that they give me clarity it seems... Shafran's playing is intimate, but so is Fournier's - as different as they are. Fournier sort of balances intimacy and the analytical approach (you can see hear/see the lines) the best maybe...

If I could point things out in the score, I could exactly explain what I like more about the interpretation ; and this would be objective -- everyone would be able to understand (even if they were of different opinion) why I liked x interpretation more than y (for example because how musical figures were presented - as in the case above).

>> but honestly... it's just phrasing and tone
>> which makes me like him more than the others...

>> Starker seemed very mechanic to me, no feeling
>> etc.

> Starker was a Jewish Hungarian Nazi. Boots on
> the bbow and boots on the strings, all driven
> by a metronome.

Not sure about his background, but I doubt he was a Nazi? Did the SS welcome him in their troops or what?

OT: Muslim SS-Troops praying with German SS-Officer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew4HaK6h-aA

>> Cassado had horrible phrasing and tone... etc

> Not when I heard him. He had an amazing round,
> mellow tone that only Shafran came close to.

What I heard sounded really horrible...

>> Then I also compare passages which I like very
>> much... hear how Fournier phrases this part in
>> Bach Cello suite 6 Gavotte 2 compared to Casals
>> (with Fournier you are sort of being carried away,
>> like a bird that has been set free - with Casals...
>> he is raping this part...)

>> Fournier:

>> https://youtu.be/ga8rF3ZTOyA?si=lAxgZXInRFkAuj8e&t=1272 (The part I mean starts at 21:21)

>> Casals (the part starts at 21:48):

>> https://youtu.be/gG2Py1XBXew?si=c_LbqsPw7OX2I6RB&t=1299

> Casals was a pedantic literalist.

> One can always add a starting timemark to the URL
> by appending "&t=XXXs" where XXX is the number of
> seconds from the start.

Take a look at the links... The reason I added the timemark in the text was, that the timemark in the links starts ~10 seconds before the part I was talking about; I didn't want to throw you directly into the part... a little bit of foreplay ;)