Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:

https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b

Unpacking the Cause

The sequence of events that led to this digital exile began
innocuously enough. A package was delivered to my house on
Wednesday, May 24, and everything seemed fine. The following
day, however, I found that my Echo Show had signed out, and
I was unable to interact with my smart home devices. My
initial assumption was that someone might have attempted
to access my account repeatedly, triggering a lockout. I
use a fairly old email address for my Amazon account, and
it's plausible that an old password might have been exposed
in a past data breach. However, I currently use strong,
auto-generated passwords via Apple and employ two-factor
authentication with an authenticator app, so unauthorized
access seemed unlikely.

I swiftly checked my other accounts (social media, streaming
apps, etc.) to ensure I hadn't been compromised. All seemed
normal, with no flood of notifications from Microsoft
Authenticator that would indicate an attempted breach.
Puzzled, I followed the advice of the Amazon app and dialed
the customer service number it provided. That's when things
began to take a surreal turn.

An Unexpected Accusation

The representative told me I should have received an email,
which I indeed found in my inbox. It was from an executive
at Amazon. As I dialed the number provided in the email, I
half-wondered if Amazon was experiencing some issues and I
was unwittingly falling into a scam.

When I connected with the executive, they asked if I knew
why my account had been locked. When I answered I was unsure,
their tone turned somewhat accusatory. I was told that the
driver who had delivered my package reported receiving
racist remarks from my "Ring doorbell" (it's actually a
Eufy, but I'll let it slide).

Addressing the Problem

Here's where things got even more baffling.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wednesday, 14 June 2023 at 18:04:58 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>
> https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b

For "Smart house acts out", there comes to mind
<https://scoobydoo.fandom.com/wiki/High-Tech_House_of_Horrors>

Where unusually, the "monster" is... I shouldn't say.
However, the page itself acknowledges a similar
setup in _2001: A Space Odyssey_. (ish)

And there's this 1954 Daffy Duck vehicle:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_Leaving>

Or Tex Avery expressing a feeling towards mothers-in-law:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_House_of_Tomorrow_(1949_film)>
(Also featuring <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joi_Lansing>)

In article <1ae6ad58-284a-46dd-a72c-4a5678d5ad11n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 14 June 2023 at 18:04:58 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>>
>>
>https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b
>
>For "Smart house acts out", there comes to mind
><https://scoobydoo.fandom.com/wiki/High-Tech_House_of_Horrors>
>
>Where unusually, the "monster" is... I shouldn't say.
>However, the page itself acknowledges a similar
>setup in _2001: A Space Odyssey_. (ish)
>
>And there's this 1954 Daffy Duck vehicle:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_Leaving>
>

"Don't ever push the wed one!"
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 6/14/2023 12:04 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>
> https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b
>
> Unpacking the Cause
>
> The sequence of events that led to this digital exile began
> innocuously enough. A package was delivered to my house on
> Wednesday, May 24, and everything seemed fine. The following
> day, however, I found that my Echo Show had signed out, and
> I was unable to interact with my smart home devices. My
> initial assumption was that someone might have attempted
> to access my account repeatedly, triggering a lockout. I
> use a fairly old email address for my Amazon account, and
> it's plausible that an old password might have been exposed
> in a past data breach. However, I currently use strong,
> auto-generated passwords via Apple and employ two-factor
> authentication with an authenticator app, so unauthorized
> access seemed unlikely.

"Open the pod bay doors, HAL!".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqCCubrky00

Lynn

In article <u6dfnr$4ppd$1@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 6/14/2023 12:04 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>>
>>
>https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b
>>
>> Unpacking the Cause
>>
>> The sequence of events that led to this digital exile began
>> innocuously enough. A package was delivered to my house on
>> Wednesday, May 24, and everything seemed fine. The following
>> day, however, I found that my Echo Show had signed out, and
>> I was unable to interact with my smart home devices. My
>> initial assumption was that someone might have attempted
>> to access my account repeatedly, triggering a lockout. I
>> use a fairly old email address for my Amazon account, and
>> it's plausible that an old password might have been exposed
>> in a past data breach. However, I currently use strong,
>> auto-generated passwords via Apple and employ two-factor
>> authentication with an authenticator app, so unauthorized
>> access seemed unlikely.
>
>"Open the pod bay doors, HAL!".
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqCCubrky00

(Hal Heydt)
"I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that."

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 12:04:58 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>
> https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b
>
> Unpacking the Cause
>
> The sequence of events that led to this digital exile began
> innocuously enough. A package was delivered to my house on
> Wednesday, May 24, and everything seemed fine. The following
> day, however, I found that my Echo Show had signed out, and
> I was unable to interact with my smart home devices. My
> initial assumption was that someone might have attempted
> to access my account repeatedly, triggering a lockout. I
> use a fairly old email address for my Amazon account, and
> it's plausible that an old password might have been exposed
> in a past data breach. However, I currently use strong,
> auto-generated passwords via Apple and employ two-factor
> authentication with an authenticator app, so unauthorized
> access seemed unlikely.
>
> I swiftly checked my other accounts (social media, streaming
> apps, etc.) to ensure I hadn't been compromised. All seemed
> normal, with no flood of notifications from Microsoft
> Authenticator that would indicate an attempted breach.
> Puzzled, I followed the advice of the Amazon app and dialed
> the customer service number it provided. That's when things
> began to take a surreal turn.
>
> An Unexpected Accusation
>
> The representative told me I should have received an email,
> which I indeed found in my inbox. It was from an executive
> at Amazon. As I dialed the number provided in the email, I
> half-wondered if Amazon was experiencing some issues and I
> was unwittingly falling into a scam.
>
> When I connected with the executive, they asked if I knew
> why my account had been locked. When I answered I was unsure,
> their tone turned somewhat accusatory. I was told that the
> driver who had delivered my package reported receiving
> racist remarks from my "Ring doorbell" (it's actually a
> Eufy, but I'll let it slide).
>
> Addressing the Problem
>
> Here's where things got even more baffling.
> --
> columbiaclosings.com
> What's not in Columbia anymore..

I've maintained for years that facilities such as 'smart homes' should _not_ be Internet-enabled. Likewise anything along the lines of a domestic robot. Some technologies are best implemented as stand alone.

In article <321ca794-c153-49a2-93a5-2f8bdb9fe666n@googlegroups.com>,
Johnny1A <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:
>I've maintained for years that facilities such as 'smart homes' should
>_not_ be Internet-enabled. Likewise anything along the lines of a
>domestic robot. Some technologies are best implemented as stand alone.

(Hal Heydt)
I am acquainted with a gentleman and his wife. He is the CEO of
a business that does some 10s of million of dollars every year.
She is the Director of Communications for the company. Someone
asked him what sort of smart speaker he had at home. He replied
that that don't have one, and won't have one. They talk company
business at home over meals. I should mention that it is a high
tech business.

On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 12:30:50 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <321ca794-c153-49a2...@googlegroups.com>,
> Johnny1A <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I've maintained for years that facilities such as 'smart homes' should
> >_not_ be Internet-enabled. Likewise anything along the lines of a
> >domestic robot. Some technologies are best implemented as stand alone.
> (Hal Heydt)
> I am acquainted with a gentleman and his wife. He is the CEO of
> a business that does some 10s of million of dollars every year.
> She is the Director of Communications for the company. Someone
> asked him what sort of smart speaker he had at home. He replied
> that that don't have one, and won't have one. They talk company
> business at home over meals. I should mention that it is a high
> tech business.

Its getting difficult to avoid, since any internet device with a microphone
is a potential spy. I don't have a smart speaker, but I have cellphones,
tablets, computers, etc. Even my cable box remote and car use voice
recognition (claimed to be listening only when a button is held down).

pt

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 19:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
<johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 12:04:58?PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>>
>> https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b
>>
>> Unpacking the Cause
>>
>> The sequence of events that led to this digital exile began
>> innocuously enough. A package was delivered to my house on
>> Wednesday, May 24, and everything seemed fine. The following
>> day, however, I found that my Echo Show had signed out, and
>> I was unable to interact with my smart home devices. My
>> initial assumption was that someone might have attempted
>> to access my account repeatedly, triggering a lockout. I
>> use a fairly old email address for my Amazon account, and
>> it's plausible that an old password might have been exposed
>> in a past data breach. However, I currently use strong,
>> auto-generated passwords via Apple and employ two-factor
>> authentication with an authenticator app, so unauthorized
>> access seemed unlikely.
>>
>> I swiftly checked my other accounts (social media, streaming
>> apps, etc.) to ensure I hadn't been compromised. All seemed
>> normal, with no flood of notifications from Microsoft
>> Authenticator that would indicate an attempted breach.
>> Puzzled, I followed the advice of the Amazon app and dialed
>> the customer service number it provided. That's when things
>> began to take a surreal turn.
>>
>> An Unexpected Accusation
>>
>> The representative told me I should have received an email,
>> which I indeed found in my inbox. It was from an executive
>> at Amazon. As I dialed the number provided in the email, I
>> half-wondered if Amazon was experiencing some issues and I
>> was unwittingly falling into a scam.
>>
>> When I connected with the executive, they asked if I knew
>> why my account had been locked. When I answered I was unsure,
>> their tone turned somewhat accusatory. I was told that the
>> driver who had delivered my package reported receiving
>> racist remarks from my "Ring doorbell" (it's actually a
>> Eufy, but I'll let it slide).
>>
>> Addressing the Problem
>>
>> Here's where things got even more baffling.
>> --
>> columbiaclosings.com
>> What's not in Columbia anymore..
>
>I've maintained for years that facilities such as 'smart homes' should _not_ be Internet-enabled. Likewise anything along the lines of a domestic robot. Some technologies are best implemented as stand alone.

I agree with that. Also critical infrastructure, like electric grids
and traffic lights. (/Summer Wars/ shows where /that/ can lead, and
the movie /I, Robot/, whatever else may be said of it, certainly
illustrates the inadvisability of connected home robots).

But my main objection to smart homes, as described, is much simpler: I
don't want to get a steady string of emails from my refrigerator
telling me that my toaster is no longer responding to its pings.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 11:45:14 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 19:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
> <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 12:04:58?PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
> >>
> >> https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b
> >>
> >> Unpacking the Cause
> >>
> >> The sequence of events that led to this digital exile began
> >> innocuously enough. A package was delivered to my house on
> >> Wednesday, May 24, and everything seemed fine. The following
> >> day, however, I found that my Echo Show had signed out, and
> >> I was unable to interact with my smart home devices. My
> >> initial assumption was that someone might have attempted
> >> to access my account repeatedly, triggering a lockout. I
> >> use a fairly old email address for my Amazon account, and
> >> it's plausible that an old password might have been exposed
> >> in a past data breach. However, I currently use strong,
> >> auto-generated passwords via Apple and employ two-factor
> >> authentication with an authenticator app, so unauthorized
> >> access seemed unlikely.
> >>
> >> I swiftly checked my other accounts (social media, streaming
> >> apps, etc.) to ensure I hadn't been compromised. All seemed
> >> normal, with no flood of notifications from Microsoft
> >> Authenticator that would indicate an attempted breach.
> >> Puzzled, I followed the advice of the Amazon app and dialed
> >> the customer service number it provided. That's when things
> >> began to take a surreal turn.
> >>
> >> An Unexpected Accusation
> >>
> >> The representative told me I should have received an email,
> >> which I indeed found in my inbox. It was from an executive
> >> at Amazon. As I dialed the number provided in the email, I
> >> half-wondered if Amazon was experiencing some issues and I
> >> was unwittingly falling into a scam.
> >>
> >> When I connected with the executive, they asked if I knew
> >> why my account had been locked. When I answered I was unsure,
> >> their tone turned somewhat accusatory. I was told that the
> >> driver who had delivered my package reported receiving
> >> racist remarks from my "Ring doorbell" (it's actually a
> >> Eufy, but I'll let it slide).
> >>
> >> Addressing the Problem
> >>
> >> Here's where things got even more baffling.
> >> --
> >> columbiaclosings.com
> >> What's not in Columbia anymore..
> >
> >I've maintained for years that facilities such as 'smart homes' should _not_ be Internet-enabled. Likewise anything along the lines of a domestic robot. Some technologies are best implemented as stand alone.
> I agree with that. Also critical infrastructure, like electric grids
> and traffic lights. (/Summer Wars/ shows where /that/ can lead, and
> the movie /I, Robot/, whatever else may be said of it, certainly
> illustrates the inadvisability of connected home robots).

To the degree that domestic automation is desirable (and exactly how far that is so is debatable and will vary from person to person), it would be entirely possible to implement it as stand alone. Software updates could be performed by something like a disk or flash card (or whatever technology is current at the time). The equipment in the house need not necessarily be interconnected with each other, as well. Remote-control of household appliances might be convenient, but I doubt if it could be worth the downside of connectivity. In some cases, there might be a limited case for 'transmit only' connectivity, say to let the refrigerator report that you are out of milk, something like that.
But when in doubt, isolate, should be the general rule.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 10:35:46 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
<johnny1a.again@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 11:45:14?AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 19:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
>> <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 12:04:58?PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> >> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>> >>
>> >> https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b
>> >>
>> >> Unpacking the Cause
>> >>
>> >> The sequence of events that led to this digital exile began
>> >> innocuously enough. A package was delivered to my house on
>> >> Wednesday, May 24, and everything seemed fine. The following
>> >> day, however, I found that my Echo Show had signed out, and
>> >> I was unable to interact with my smart home devices. My
>> >> initial assumption was that someone might have attempted
>> >> to access my account repeatedly, triggering a lockout. I
>> >> use a fairly old email address for my Amazon account, and
>> >> it's plausible that an old password might have been exposed
>> >> in a past data breach. However, I currently use strong,
>> >> auto-generated passwords via Apple and employ two-factor
>> >> authentication with an authenticator app, so unauthorized
>> >> access seemed unlikely.
>> >>
>> >> I swiftly checked my other accounts (social media, streaming
>> >> apps, etc.) to ensure I hadn't been compromised. All seemed
>> >> normal, with no flood of notifications from Microsoft
>> >> Authenticator that would indicate an attempted breach.
>> >> Puzzled, I followed the advice of the Amazon app and dialed
>> >> the customer service number it provided. That's when things
>> >> began to take a surreal turn.
>> >>
>> >> An Unexpected Accusation
>> >>
>> >> The representative told me I should have received an email,
>> >> which I indeed found in my inbox. It was from an executive
>> >> at Amazon. As I dialed the number provided in the email, I
>> >> half-wondered if Amazon was experiencing some issues and I
>> >> was unwittingly falling into a scam.
>> >>
>> >> When I connected with the executive, they asked if I knew
>> >> why my account had been locked. When I answered I was unsure,
>> >> their tone turned somewhat accusatory. I was told that the
>> >> driver who had delivered my package reported receiving
>> >> racist remarks from my "Ring doorbell" (it's actually a
>> >> Eufy, but I'll let it slide).
>> >>
>> >> Addressing the Problem
>> >>
>> >> Here's where things got even more baffling.
>> >> --
>> >> columbiaclosings.com
>> >> What's not in Columbia anymore..
>> >
>> >I've maintained for years that facilities such as 'smart homes' should _not_ be Internet-enabled. Likewise anything along the lines of a domestic robot. Some technologies are best implemented as stand alone.
>> I agree with that. Also critical infrastructure, like electric grids
>> and traffic lights. (/Summer Wars/ shows where /that/ can lead, and
>> the movie /I, Robot/, whatever else may be said of it, certainly
>> illustrates the inadvisability of connected home robots).
>
>To the degree that domestic automation is desirable (and exactly how far that is so is debatable and will vary from person to person), it would be entirely possible to implement it as stand alone. Software updates could be performed by something like a disk or flash card (or whatever technology is current at the time). The equipment in the house need not necessarily be interconnected with each other, as well. Remote-control of household appliances might be convenient, but I doubt if it could be worth the downside of connectivity. In some cases, there might be a limited case for 'transmit only' connectivity, say to let the refrigerator report that you are out of milk, something like that.

I would object even to such notifications, but I think a lot of people
might find a panel displaying such information helpful.

Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
/would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
than it was worth.
>But when in doubt, isolate, should be the general rule.

Indeed.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <1ae6ad58-284a-46dd-a72c-4a5678d5ad11n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 14 June 2023 at 18:04:58 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> Seems like there must be at least a few YASIDs for this:
>>
>https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818b

The one that comes to mind is Gordon Dickson's
"Computers Don't Argue."

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>/would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>than it was worth.
>
Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
ensure the bar code is face up)

On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>> than it was worth.
>>
> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
> ensure the bar code is face up)

The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:04:44 PM UTC-4, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> > <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
> >> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
> >> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
> >> than it was worth.
> >>
> > Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
> > could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
> > and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
> > paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
> > ensure the bar code is face up)
> The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
> that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
> to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
> was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
> you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.

I kind of like the XKCD solution:

https://xkcd.com/1109/

pt

On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:04:38 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
<morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:

>On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>>> than it was worth.
>>>
>> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
>> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
>> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
>> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
>> ensure the bar code is face up)
>
>The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
>that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
>to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
>was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
>you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.

That's kinda what I suspected.

So, every egg will have an RFID attached so the refrigerator can tell
when you're out?

And only cartons of milk with an RFID can be bought if you want the
refrigerator to notice them?

Note: feel free to treat these as /rhetorical/ questions, intended to
suggest possible drawbacks to the idea.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 16:36:25 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:04:38 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
> <mor...@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>
> >On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> >> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
> >>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
> >>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
> >>> than it was worth.
> >>>
> >> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
> >> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
> >> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
> >> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
> >> ensure the bar code is face up)
> >
> >The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
> >that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
> >to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
> >was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
> >you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.
> That's kinda what I suspected.
>
> So, every egg will have an RFID attached so the refrigerator can tell
> when you're out?
>
> And only cartons of milk with an RFID can be bought if you want the
> refrigerator to notice them?
>
> Note: feel free to treat these as /rhetorical/ questions, intended to
> suggest possible drawbacks to the idea.

Either RFID was going to be a lot cheaper - and guiltlessly
disposable - or groceries were going to be more expensive.
In 2023, some British stores electronically tagged meat
to prevent theft.

It would be more practical to scan a product barcode when
you put the product in the fridge or the larder, or take it out.

Possibly, weighing scales under bays to store eggs, milk, etc.,
would be involved.

Didn't Amazon or Apple launch grocery stores where you just
walk in and pick up stuff and cameras keep track of what
you take? It's a little difficult to find that with Google.
Perhaps I did imagine it.

On 6/23/2023 8:06 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:04:44 PM UTC-4, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>> On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>>>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>>>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>>>> than it was worth.
>>>>
>>> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
>>> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
>>> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
>>> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
>>> ensure the bar code is face up)
>> The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
>> that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
>> to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
>> was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
>> you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.
>
> I kind of like the XKCD solution:
>
> https://xkcd.com/1109/
>
> pt

I agree, would simplify things greatly.

On 6/23/2023 10:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:04:38 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
> <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>
>> On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>>>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>>>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>>>> than it was worth.
>>>>
>>> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
>>> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
>>> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
>>> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
>>> ensure the bar code is face up)
>>
>> The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
>> that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
>> to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
>> was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
>> you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.
>
> That's kinda what I suspected.
>
> So, every egg will have an RFID attached so the refrigerator can tell
> when you're out?
>
> And only cartons of milk with an RFID can be bought if you want the
> refrigerator to notice them?
>
> Note: feel free to treat these as /rhetorical/ questions, intended to
> suggest possible drawbacks to the idea.

Just the carton I would think. No carton, no eggs. Problem with all this
is it only tells you when you're out of an item, not nearly out.

I almost have an inventory system. My grocery store's shopping app
allows me to scan an items bar code and add it to my shopping list. So
if I pull out A1 sauce and see it's almost empty it gets scanned before
it goes back in.

In article <766758c6-07cc-4ccc-abf2-d3e1a24837a5n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 16:36:25 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:04:38 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
>> <mor...@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>> >> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>> >>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>> >>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>> >>> than it was worth.
>> >>>
>> >> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
>> >> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
>> >> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
>> >> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
>> >> ensure the bar code is face up)
>> >
>> >The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
>> >that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
>> >to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
>> >was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
>> >you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.
>> That's kinda what I suspected.
>>
>> So, every egg will have an RFID attached so the refrigerator can tell
>> when you're out?
>>
>> And only cartons of milk with an RFID can be bought if you want the
>> refrigerator to notice them?
>>
>> Note: feel free to treat these as /rhetorical/ questions, intended to
>> suggest possible drawbacks to the idea.
>
>Either RFID was going to be a lot cheaper - and guiltlessly
>disposable - or groceries were going to be more expensive.
>In 2023, some British stores electronically tagged meat
>to prevent theft.
>
>It would be more practical to scan a product barcode when
>you put the product in the fridge or the larder, or take it out.
>
>Possibly, weighing scales under bays to store eggs, milk, etc.,
>would be involved.
>
>Didn't Amazon or Apple launch grocery stores where you just
>walk in and pick up stuff and cameras keep track of what
>you take? It's a little difficult to find that with Google.
>Perhaps I did imagine it.

(Hal Heydt)
That might have been Amazon when they bought Whole Paycheck.

In article <766758c6-07cc-4ccc-abf2-d3e1a24837a5n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

> On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 16:36:25 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:

<SNIP>
> >
> > So, every egg will have an RFID attached so the refrigerator can tell
> > when you're out?
> >
> > And only cartons of milk with an RFID can be bought if you want the
> > refrigerator to notice them?
> >
> > Note: feel free to treat these as /rhetorical/ questions, intended to
> > suggest possible drawbacks to the idea.
>
> Either RFID was going to be a lot cheaper - and guiltlessly
> disposable - or groceries were going to be more expensive.
> In 2023, some British stores electronically tagged meat
> to prevent theft.
>
> It would be more practical to scan a product barcode when
> you put the product in the fridge or the larder, or take it out.
>
> Possibly, weighing scales under bays to store eggs, milk, etc.,
> would be involved.
>
> Didn't Amazon or Apple launch grocery stores where you just
> walk in and pick up stuff and cameras keep track of what
> you take? It's a little difficult to find that with Google.
> Perhaps I did imagine it.

That would be Amazon Go (appears to be in only 5 metropolitan areas, one
being London), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Go

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 16:01:03 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 16:36:25 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:04:38 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
>> <mor...@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>> >> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>> >>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>> >>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>> >>> than it was worth.
>> >>>
>> >> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
>> >> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
>> >> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
>> >> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
>> >> ensure the bar code is face up)
>> >
>> >The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
>> >that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
>> >to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
>> >was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
>> >you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.
>> That's kinda what I suspected.
>>
>> So, every egg will have an RFID attached so the refrigerator can tell
>> when you're out?
>>
>> And only cartons of milk with an RFID can be bought if you want the
>> refrigerator to notice them?
>>
>> Note: feel free to treat these as /rhetorical/ questions, intended to
>> suggest possible drawbacks to the idea.
>
>Either RFID was going to be a lot cheaper - and guiltlessly
>disposable - or groceries were going to be more expensive.
>In 2023, some British stores electronically tagged meat
>to prevent theft.
>
>It would be more practical to scan a product barcode when
>you put the product in the fridge or the larder, or take it out.
>
>Possibly, weighing scales under bays to store eggs, milk, etc.,
>would be involved.

All that would certainly /work/, if the user did it religiously (as we
used to say).

Although limitations on where I could store what would be a
deal-breaker for me.

And, anyway, I have a simpler system:
-- shop for groceries on specified days
-- check the fridge, shelves, floor, whatever for what to get
-- never wait for something to run out to replace it
of course, my memory is still working well enough to allow this. A
decade or two from now, who can say?

>Didn't Amazon or Apple launch grocery stores where you just
>walk in and pick up stuff and cameras keep track of what
>you take? It's a little difficult to find that with Google.
>Perhaps I did imagine it.

IIRC, Amazon tried that with stores-in-general, but it didn't work out
to well: there were, it appeared, cracks in the system.

OTOH, since otherpost it appears there are still five of them in
existence, perhaps they fixed the bugs.

Weren't they also pretty-much restricted to cell phone users running
an App which could charge the purchase directly to their credit card?
Not exactly a system for everyone. Particularly since the younger set
appears to be returning to cash and even to the envelope system of
budgeting. Shades of their (great-) grandparents!

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 19:18:00 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
<morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:

>On 6/23/2023 10:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:04:38 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
>> <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/22/2023 9:06 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:30:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, provided the refrigerator knew what it was talking about. How
>>>>> /would/ a refrigerator detect the presence of absence of milk? And the
>>>>> user had the option to /turn the panel off/ if it was more trouble
>>>>> than it was worth.
>>>>>
>>>> Presumably by reading bar codes which at least in MY refrigerator
>>>> could be tricky since things often end up piled on top of each other
>>>> and many items are uniform shapes (like the butter which is usually
>>>> paper or foil wrapped and 3" x 3" x 6" in size and obviously I don't
>>>> ensure the bar code is face up)
>>>
>>> The answer was supposed to be RFID but I've not really heard anything on
>>> that front for years. When I left we were chipping all the IT equipment
>>> to simplify inventory but that was seven years ago. At one time there
>>> was talk of retailers, Walmart specifically, implementing RFID so that
>>> you just push your cart through the checkout and it reads everything in it.
>>
>> That's kinda what I suspected.
>>
>> So, every egg will have an RFID attached so the refrigerator can tell
>> when you're out?
>>
>> And only cartons of milk with an RFID can be bought if you want the
>> refrigerator to notice them?
>>
>> Note: feel free to treat these as /rhetorical/ questions, intended to
>> suggest possible drawbacks to the idea.
>
>Just the carton I would think. No carton, no eggs. Problem with all this
>is it only tells you when you're out of an item, not nearly out.
>
>I almost have an inventory system. My grocery store's shopping app
>allows me to scan an items bar code and add it to my shopping list. So
>if I pull out A1 sauce and see it's almost empty it gets scanned before
>it goes back in.

If I did A1 sauce, I would always have two (except between when I
finished one and hadn't bought another, less than a week).

The only problem with my system is that I have to be sure to /rotate
the stock/ -- that is, I have to be sure that the new one goes
/behind/ (or in a different place altogether than) the one being used.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 09:04:09 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>It would be more practical to scan a product barcode when
>>you put the product in the fridge or the larder, or take it out.
>>
>>Possibly, weighing scales under bays to store eggs, milk, etc.,
>>would be involved.
>
>All that would certainly /work/, if the user did it religiously (as we
>used to say).
>
>Although limitations on where I could store what would be a
>deal-breaker for me.
>
>And, anyway, I have a simpler system:
>-- shop for groceries on specified days
>-- check the fridge, shelves, floor, whatever for what to get
>-- never wait for something to run out to replace it
>of course, my memory is still working well enough to allow this. A
>decade or two from now, who can say?

My son works for Amazon and is building a new warehouse for them with
this kind of technology but he has never discussed using it with
perishables. No doubt somebody at Amazon has thought of what you're
discussing but his work has been about pulling items from the shelves,
getting them down the conveyors to shipment assembly and out the door
to customers. And of course the reverse of this i.e. receiving goods
from vendors and getting them to their proper location in the
warehouse.

All highly automated (which is his specialty) and about (a) reducing
order to ship times and maintenance of equipment. When he's not
training either on his own behalf or with new staff.

But again - he's never discussed using this for perishables.

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 09:07:06 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>If I did A1 sauce, I would always have two (except between when I
>finished one and hadn't bought another, less than a week).
>
>The only problem with my system is that I have to be sure to /rotate
>the stock/ -- that is, I have to be sure that the new one goes
>/behind/ (or in a different place altogether than) the one being used.

We have the same problem but for milk - we usually get the 4 litre
jugs and get them 2 at a time. Our 'solution' is that we have 2
refrigerators one upstairs one down (about 10' from my computer area
which means I'm regularly going upstairs and down since I make my
coffee upstairs)