Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy

Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.

https://www.tor.com/2023/05/08/five-sff-characters-who-could-have-greatly-benefited-from-therapy/
--
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On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:21:45 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>
> Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
> like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/08/five-sff-characters-who-could-have-greatly-benefited-from-therapy/

There may be a converse category in which the survival of a character may have required a certain level of mental instability. Examples might be from Starfish by Peter Watts and Rogue Moon by Algis Budry's. I also remember a non-fiction movie about people who lived in Antarctica and you have to be somewhat nuts to make it there.

On 5/8/2023 9:21 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>
> Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
> like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/08/five-sff-characters-who-could-have-greatly-benefited-from-therapy/

"Space Viking" is awesome.

Many of Heinlein's characters were loopy. "I Will Fear No Evil" goes to
the far extent on that one. We won't talk about "Time Enough For Love",
the Senior is totally off the deep end a lot.

And of course there were the guys who survived WWIII in "Damnation Alley".

Lynn

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 9:21:45 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>
You mention H. Beam Piper's _Space Viking_:

"The wedding of Lady Elaine and Lucas, Lord Trask would have been picture perfect. Too bad that rejected suitor Lord Andray Dunnan interrupts things with an assassination attempt. Trask survives but Lady Elaine is killed. Dunnan flees in a stolen starship into the depths of the old Federation (which has left behind a slew of settled but poorly defended planets)."

Note that Andray Dunnan makes his attack after the actual wedding ceremony, so he kills Lady Elaine Trask but only
critically injures Lord Lucas Trask, who recovers to hunt down and kill Dunnan in the Old Federation. Andray Dunnan's
problem amenable to therapy would seem to be an inability to multi-Trask.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

In article <0c34c294-7e38-481a-bd2b-3a381bdc14bfn@googlegroups.com>,
Peter Wezeman <wep647078@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 9:21:45 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>>
>You mention H. Beam Piper's _Space Viking_:
>
>"The wedding of Lady Elaine and Lucas, Lord Trask would have been
>picture perfect. Too bad that rejected suitor Lord Andray Dunnan
>interrupts things with an assassination attempt. Trask survives but Lady
>Elaine is killed. Dunnan flees in a stolen starship into the depths of
>the old Federation (which has left behind a slew of settled but poorly
>defended planets)."
>
>Note that Andray Dunnan makes his attack after the actual wedding
>ceremony, so he kills Lady Elaine Trask but only
>critically injures Lord Lucas Trask, who recovers to hunt down and kill
>Dunnan in the Old Federation. Andray Dunnan's
>problem amenable to therapy would seem to be an inability to multi-Trask.
>

Sir, I commend you.
Now leave.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 5/8/2023 8:31 PM, Peter Wezeman wrote:
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 9:21:45 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>>
> You mention H. Beam Piper's _Space Viking_:
>
> "The wedding of Lady Elaine and Lucas, Lord Trask would have been picture perfect. Too bad that rejected suitor Lord Andray Dunnan interrupts things with an assassination attempt. Trask survives but Lady Elaine is killed. Dunnan flees in a stolen starship into the depths of the old Federation (which has left behind a slew of settled but poorly defended planets)."
>
> Note that Andray Dunnan makes his attack after the actual wedding ceremony, so he kills Lady Elaine Trask but only
> critically injures Lord Lucas Trask, who recovers to hunt down and kill Dunnan in the Old Federation. Andray Dunnan's
> problem amenable to therapy would seem to be an inability to multi-Trask.
>
BOOOOOOO!!!!!!

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Peter Wezeman wrote:
> James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>>
> You mention H. Beam Piper's _Space Viking_:
>
> "The wedding of Lady Elaine and Lucas, Lord Trask would have been picture
> perfect. Too bad that rejected suitor Lord Andray Dunnan interrupts things
> with an assassination attempt. Trask survives but Lady Elaine is killed.
> Dunnan flees in a stolen starship into the depths of the old Federation
> (which has left behind a slew of settled but poorly defended planets)."
>
> Note that Andray Dunnan makes his attack after the actual wedding ceremony,
> so he kills Lady Elaine Trask but only
> critically injures Lord Lucas Trask, who recovers to hunt down and kill
> Dunnan in the Old Federation. Andray Dunnan's
> problem amenable to therapy would seem to be an inability to multi-Trask.

Apparently aggravated by Dunnan's lack of mindfulness to focus and stay
on Trask.

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

On 5/9/2023 11:35 AM, Don wrote:
> Peter Wezeman wrote:
>> James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>>>
>> You mention H. Beam Piper's _Space Viking_:
>>
>> "The wedding of Lady Elaine and Lucas, Lord Trask would have been picture
>> perfect. Too bad that rejected suitor Lord Andray Dunnan interrupts things
>> with an assassination attempt. Trask survives but Lady Elaine is killed.
>> Dunnan flees in a stolen starship into the depths of the old Federation
>> (which has left behind a slew of settled but poorly defended planets)."
>>
>> Note that Andray Dunnan makes his attack after the actual wedding ceremony,
>> so he kills Lady Elaine Trask but only
>> critically injures Lord Lucas Trask, who recovers to hunt down and kill
>> Dunnan in the Old Federation. Andray Dunnan's
>> problem amenable to therapy would seem to be an inability to multi-Trask.
>
> Apparently aggravated by Dunnan's lack of mindfulness to focus and stay
> on Trask.
>
> Danke,
>
You get a BOOOOOOO!!!!!! too.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 9:21:45 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>
> Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
> like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.
>
Sometimes characters did benefit from therapy. The following is from
_Secomd Stage Lensmen_, courtesy of the Gutenberg Project. Kimball
Kinnison has just captured Illona of Lonabar, an agent of Boskone who
was held prisoner by the Lyranians.

"I am starved," the girl said, simply. "I couldn't eat there. I knew they were
going to kill me, and it... it sort of took away my appetite."

"Well, what are we waiting for? I'm hungry, too--let's go eat."

"Not with you, either, any more than with them. I thanked you, Lensman,
for saving my life there, and I meant it. I thought then and still think that
I would rather have you kill me than those horrible, monstrous women,
but I simply can't eat."

"But I'm not even thinking of killing you--can't you get that through your skull?
I don't make war on women; you ought to know that by this time."

"You will have to." The girl's voice was low and level. "You didn't kill any of those
Lyranians, no, but you didn't chase them a million parsecs, either. We have been
taught ever since we were born that you Patrolmen always torture people to death.
I don't quite believe that of you personally, since I have had a couple of glimpses
into your mind, but you'll kill me before I'll talk. At least, I hope and I believe that
I can hold out."

"Listen, girl." Kinnison was in deadly earnest. "You are in no danger whatever.
You are just as safe as though you were in Klono's hip pocket. You have some
information that I want, yes, and I will get it, but in the process I will neither
hurt you nor do you mental or physical harm. The only torture you will undergo
will be that which, as now, you give yourself."

"But you called me a... a zwilnik, and they always kill them," she protested.

"Not always. In battles and in raids, yes. Captured ones are tried in court.. If found
guilty, they used to go into the lethal chambers. Sometimes they do yet, but not
usually. We have mental therapists now who can operate on a mind if there's
anything there worth saving."

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:21:45 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>
> Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
> like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/08/five-sff-characters-who-could-have-greatly-benefited-from-therapy/
>

Sam Reed (aka Sam Harker) from Kuttner’s Fury.

Each and every one of the Taken in Cook’s Black Company series.

Winston Duarte — and his daughter — in the Expanse series.

I would add Kirth Gersen (Vance’s Demon Princes series), except
(and I am being selfish here) it would have deprived us of five
enjoyable books.

Tony

On 5/9/23 15:30, Tony Nance wrote:
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:21:45 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>>
>> Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
>> like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/08/five-sff-characters-who-could-have-greatly-benefited-from-therapy/
>>
>
> Sam Reed (aka Sam Harker) from Kuttner’s Fury.
>
> Each and every one of the Taken in Cook’s Black Company series.
Just The Taken? How about almost all of the members of the Black
Company? Croaker mentioned not looking too deep into his own self let
alone the rest of the group. "When I reflect on my companions' inner
natures I usually wish I controlled one small talent. I wish I could
look inside them and unmask the darks and brights that move them. Then I
take a quick look into the jungle of my own soul and thank heaven that I
cannot. Any man who barely sustains an armistice with himself has no
business poking around in an alien soul."

One Eye, Goblin, Silent, the White Rose? All completely twisted. And
Raven most of all.

>
> Winston Duarte — and his daughter — in the Expanse series.
>
> I would add Kirth Gersen (Vance’s Demon Princes series), except
> (and I am being selfish here) it would have deprived us of five
> enjoyable books.
>
> Tony

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer (Retired, mostly)

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 7:17:00 PM UTC-4, BCFD36 wrote:
> On 5/9/23 15:30, Tony Nance wrote:
> > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:21:45 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
> >>
> >> Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
> >> like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.
> >>
> >> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/08/five-sff-characters-who-could-have-greatly-benefited-from-therapy/
> >>
> >
> > Sam Reed (aka Sam Harker) from Kuttner’s Fury.
> >
> > Each and every one of the Taken in Cook’s Black Company series.
>
> Just The Taken? How about almost all of the members of the Black
> Company? Croaker mentioned not looking too deep into his own self let
> alone the rest of the group. "When I reflect on my companions' inner
> natures I usually wish I controlled one small talent. I wish I could
> look inside them and unmask the darks and brights that move them. Then I
> take a quick look into the jungle of my own soul and thank heaven that I
> cannot. Any man who barely sustains an armistice with himself has no
> business poking around in an alien soul."
>
>
> One Eye, Goblin, Silent, the White Rose? All completely twisted. And
> Raven most of all.

Agreed. We can toss in the Dominator, too, though he didn't
get much screen time.

Tony

> > <snip the rest>

artyw2@yahoo.com <artyw2@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 10:21:45???AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
>>
>> Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
>> like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative.
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/08/five-sff-characters-who-could-have-greatly-benefited-from-therapy/
>
> There may be a converse category in which the survival of a character
> may have required a certain level of mental instability. Examples might
> be from Starfish by Peter Watts and Rogue Moon by Algis Budry's. I also
> remember a non-fiction movie about people who lived in Antarctica and
> you have to be somewhat nuts to make it there.

Lots of Frank Herbert characters, but most notably _Dragon in the Sea_. And PKD's novels
influenced by RD Laing. And those where a synthetic mental illness
or personality disorder has been deliberately created to improve performance - maybe
starting with Cordwainer Smith. An unethical one (mindrot) is in Vinge's _A Deepness in the Sky_

David Duffy.

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 5:17:52 PM UTC-5, Peter Wezeman wrote:
> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 9:21:45 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Five SFF Characters Who Could Have Greatly Benefited From Therapy
> >
> > Before building a moon base, becoming a government assassin, or dressing
> > like Bat to punch murder clowns, consider a more reasonable alternative..
> >
> Sometimes characters did benefit from therapy. The following is from
> _Secomd Stage Lensmen_, courtesy of the Gutenberg Project. Kimball
> Kinnison has just captured Illona of Lonabar, an agent of Boskone who
> was held prisoner by the Lyranians.
>
> "I am starved," the girl said, simply. "I couldn't eat there. I knew they were
> going to kill me, and it... it sort of took away my appetite."
>
> "Well, what are we waiting for? I'm hungry, too--let's go eat."
>
> "Not with you, either, any more than with them. I thanked you, Lensman,
> for saving my life there, and I meant it. I thought then and still think that
> I would rather have you kill me than those horrible, monstrous women,
> but I simply can't eat."
>
> "But I'm not even thinking of killing you--can't you get that through your skull?
> I don't make war on women; you ought to know that by this time."
>
> "You will have to." The girl's voice was low and level. "You didn't kill any of those
> Lyranians, no, but you didn't chase them a million parsecs, either. We have been
> taught ever since we were born that you Patrolmen always torture people to death.
> I don't quite believe that of you personally, since I have had a couple of glimpses
> into your mind, but you'll kill me before I'll talk. At least, I hope and I believe that
> I can hold out."
>
> "Listen, girl." Kinnison was in deadly earnest. "You are in no danger whatever.
> You are just as safe as though you were in Klono's hip pocket. You have some
> information that I want, yes, and I will get it, but in the process I will neither
> hurt you nor do you mental or physical harm. The only torture you will undergo
> will be that which, as now, you give yourself."
>
> "But you called me a... a zwilnik, and they always kill them," she protested.
>
> "Not always. In battles and in raids, yes. Captured ones are tried in court. If found
> guilty, they used to go into the lethal chambers. Sometimes they do yet, but not
> usually. We have mental therapists now who can operate on a mind if there's
> anything there worth saving."

Actually, it's a bit darker than KK implies.

For ex, earlier in the story, KK captures another female Boskonian agent, Dessa DesPlaines (somehow I suspect that name is an alias) who takes a mind-erasing drug to keep any Lensmen from reading her mind. (It's not clear if she _knows_ that's what the drug does.)

OK, KK proceeds to 'cure' her by writing a whole set of fake memories and life experiences into her mind-wiped self, leaving her as a law-abiding citizen. This is portrayed as admirable, an example of KK's chivalrous reluctance to terminate a woman.

Of course he more or less _did_ kill Dessa DesPlaines, by replacing her with someone else. Even when I first read that, as a teenager, it struck me that it would have been cleaner to shoot her.