Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains

An assortment of not-so-bad guys.

https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 5/24/2023 12:07 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
>
> An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/

"Dr. Impossible (Soon I Will Be Invincible)" by Austin Grossman is awesome.

Lynn

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 1:07:39 PM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
>
> An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/

_Worm_ is one of the more clever examples. You don't find out that
(rot13) obgu "urebrf" naq "ivyynvaf" ner ivpgvzf bs na "Vainfvba bs gur
Obql Fangpuref" fpranevb, jvgu nyvraf "erjevgvat lbhe pbafpvbhfarff
naq lbhe fhopbafpvbhf" (gb dhbgr gur nhgube), until the end.

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 6:07:39 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
>
> An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I nominate Marc C DuQuesne - his progress through the Skylark stories is unique in my experience (admitedly character is not my first priority, so my experience is more limited than my reading).

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:59:29 PM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 6:07:39 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
> >
> > An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
> >
> > https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
> > --
> > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> I nominate Marc C DuQuesne - his progress through the Skylark stories is unique in my experience (admitedly character is not my first priority, so my experience is more limited than my reading).

DuQuesne is basically a very-high-functioning sociopath.

DQ is not sadistic. He doesn't inflict pain and suffering for fun. He'll deal reasonably with you if he doesn't have a motive to do otherwise...but if he [i]does[/i] have such a motive, there's pretty much no limit to how much nasty he'll inflict on you, either. He just doesn't care....either way. If he could get what he wants by exterminating 25% of the human race, he'd look to see if there was a less destructive way. Grant him that much. If no such better way was available, he'd press the button in a heartbeat and sleep well afterward.

His arch-foe Seaton, on the other hand, does care. OTOH, he's just as capable of ruthlessness and mass killing, albeit with better motives. But like Dr. Impossible, he's squeamish. Seaton lays out the plans to exterminate the Fenachrone, designs and builds the superweaponry to do it, aims it, sets everything up, and yes, under the circumstances genocide is defensible, it's the Fenachrone or everyone else at the hands of the Fenachrone, who have already exterminated several intelligent species. So Seaton sets everything up...and just can't push the button himself.

That's not moral qualms, that's squeamishness.

On Sunday, 28 May 2023 at 06:28:38 UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:59:29 PM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 6:07:39 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
> > >
> > > An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
> > >
> > > https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
> > > --
> > > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> > I nominate Marc C DuQuesne - his progress through the Skylark stories is unique in my experience (admitedly character is not my first priority, so my experience is more limited than my reading).
> DuQuesne is basically a very-high-functioning sociopath.
>
> DQ is not sadistic. He doesn't inflict pain and suffering for fun. He'll deal reasonably with you if he doesn't have a motive to do otherwise...but if he [i]does[/i] have such a motive, there's pretty much no limit to how much nasty he'll inflict on you, either. He just doesn't care....either way. If he could get what he wants by exterminating 25% of the human race, he'd look to see if there was a less destructive way. Grant him that much. If no such better way was available, he'd press the button in a heartbeat and sleep well afterward.
>
> His arch-foe Seaton, on the other hand, does care. OTOH, he's just as capable of ruthlessness and mass killing, albeit with better motives. But like Dr. Impossible, he's squeamish. Seaton lays out the plans to exterminate the Fenachrone, designs and builds the superweaponry to do it, aims it, sets everything up, and yes, under the circumstances genocide is defensible, it's the Fenachrone or everyone else at the hands of the Fenachrone, who have already exterminated several intelligent species. So Seaton sets everything up...and just can't push the button himself.
>
> That's not moral qualms, that's squeamishness.

He is a Nazi, inasmuch as what he really wants is to
found his own society that exterminates the weak.
I don't recall if he has a favourite race of humans
in that context; most people did, at the time.

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:17:16 PM UTC+1, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sunday, 28 May 2023 at 06:28:38 UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:59:29 PM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 6:07:39 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
> > > >
> > > > An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
> > > > --
> > > > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > > > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > > > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > > > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> > > I nominate Marc C DuQuesne - his progress through the Skylark stories is unique in my experience (admitedly character is not my first priority, so my experience is more limited than my reading).
> > DuQuesne is basically a very-high-functioning sociopath.
> >
> > DQ is not sadistic. He doesn't inflict pain and suffering for fun. He'll deal reasonably with you if he doesn't have a motive to do otherwise...but if he [i]does[/i] have such a motive, there's pretty much no limit to how much nasty he'll inflict on you, either. He just doesn't care....either way. If he could get what he wants by exterminating 25% of the human race, he'd look to see if there was a less destructive way. Grant him that much. If no such better way was available, he'd press the button in a heartbeat and sleep well afterward.
> >
> > His arch-foe Seaton, on the other hand, does care. OTOH, he's just as capable of ruthlessness and mass killing, albeit with better motives. But like Dr. Impossible, he's squeamish. Seaton lays out the plans to exterminate the Fenachrone, designs and builds the superweaponry to do it, aims it, sets everything up, and yes, under the circumstances genocide is defensible, it's the Fenachrone or everyone else at the hands of the Fenachrone, who have already exterminated several intelligent species. So Seaton sets everything up...and just can't push the button himself.
> >
> > That's not moral qualms, that's squeamishness.
> He is a Nazi, inasmuch as what he really wants is to
> found his own society that exterminates the weak.
> I don't recall if he has a favourite race of humans
> in that context; most people did, at the time.
It is not useful to equate eugnics with Nazi ideology, because eugenics has been promoted by people not remotely connected with Nazi ideology - e.g. https://theconversation.com/progressive-eugenics-is-hardly-history-the-science-and-politics-have-just-evolved-89976 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics It is difficult to argue that DuQuesne is racist without accepting a factual basis for racism, because his scheme at the end of Skylark DuQuesne involves testing the individual, not examining their pedigree:

Sterilization, you mean?
No; death. Don't go soft on me, girl!. There will be no second-class citizens, at least in the upper stratum. Testing for that stratum will be by super-computer. Upper-stratum families will be fairly large.
(end quote)

I have long puzzled over the description of DuQuesne at the beginning of "Skylark of Space". He is described as of striking athletic build, like Seaton, but physically striking beyond that. Furthermore, we don't get to hear of his background, or how he developed his connections to the underworld. I wonder if DuQuesne's appearance and background would have made him subject to discrimination in the circles that welcomed Seaton (although Seaton does also have dark hair):

Dr Marc C. DuQuesne was a tall, powerful man, built very much like Richard Seaton. His thick, slightly wavy hair was intensely black. His eyes, only slightly lighter in shade, were surrounded by thick black eyebrows, which grew together above his aquiline, finely chiseled nose. His face, although not pale, appeared so because of the heavy black beard alays showing through, even after the closest possible shave.

On Sunday, 28 May 2023 at 19:49:35 UTC+1, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:17:16 PM UTC+1, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On Sunday, 28 May 2023 at 06:28:38 UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:59:29 PM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 6:07:39 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > > Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
> > > > >
> > > > > An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
> > > > > --
> > > > > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > > > > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > > > > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > > > > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> > > > I nominate Marc C DuQuesne - his progress through the Skylark stories is unique in my experience (admitedly character is not my first priority, so my experience is more limited than my reading).
> > > DuQuesne is basically a very-high-functioning sociopath.
> > >
> > > DQ is not sadistic. He doesn't inflict pain and suffering for fun. He'll deal reasonably with you if he doesn't have a motive to do otherwise...but if he [i]does[/i] have such a motive, there's pretty much no limit to how much nasty he'll inflict on you, either. He just doesn't care....either way. If he could get what he wants by exterminating 25% of the human race, he'd look to see if there was a less destructive way. Grant him that much. If no such better way was available, he'd press the button in a heartbeat and sleep well afterward.
> > >
> > > His arch-foe Seaton, on the other hand, does care. OTOH, he's just as capable of ruthlessness and mass killing, albeit with better motives. But like Dr. Impossible, he's squeamish. Seaton lays out the plans to exterminate the Fenachrone, designs and builds the superweaponry to do it, aims it, sets everything up, and yes, under the circumstances genocide is defensible, it's the Fenachrone or everyone else at the hands of the Fenachrone, who have already exterminated several intelligent species. So Seaton sets everything up...and just can't push the button himself.
> > >
> > > That's not moral qualms, that's squeamishness.
> > He is a Nazi, inasmuch as what he really wants is to
> > found his own society that exterminates the weak.
> > I don't recall if he has a favourite race of humans
> > in that context; most people did, at the time.
> It is not useful to equate eugnics with Nazi ideology, because eugenics has been promoted by people not remotely connected with Nazi ideology - e.g. https://theconversation.com/progressive-eugenics-is-hardly-history-the-science-and-politics-have-just-evolved-89976 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics It is difficult to argue that DuQuesne is racist without accepting a factual basis for racism, because his scheme at the end of Skylark DuQuesne involves testing the individual, not examining their pedigree:
>
> Sterilization, you mean?
> No; death. Don't go soft on me, girl!. There will be no second-class citizens, at least in the upper stratum. Testing for that stratum will be by super-computer. Upper-stratum families will be fairly large.
> (end quote)

I think murder is what makes the difference between
"making people's lives better" and Nazi.

> I have long puzzled over the description of DuQuesne at the beginning of "Skylark of Space". He is described as of striking athletic build, like Seaton, but physically striking beyond that. Furthermore, we don't get to hear of his background, or how he developed his connections to the underworld. I wonder if DuQuesne's appearance and background would have made him subject to discrimination in the circles that welcomed Seaton (although Seaton does also have dark hair):
>
> Dr Marc C. DuQuesne was a tall, powerful man, built very much like Richard Seaton. His thick, slightly wavy hair was intensely black. His eyes, only slightly lighter in shade, were surrounded by thick black eyebrows, which grew together above his aquiline, finely chiseled nose. His face, although not pale, appeared so because of the heavy black beard alays showing through, even after the closest possible shave.

I forgot they called him "Blackie". Hmm.

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 12:17:16 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sunday, 28 May 2023 at 06:28:38 UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:59:29 PM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 6:07:39 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
> > > >
> > > > An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
> > > > --
> > > > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > > > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > > > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > > > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> > > I nominate Marc C DuQuesne - his progress through the Skylark stories is unique in my experience (admitedly character is not my first priority, so my experience is more limited than my reading).
> > DuQuesne is basically a very-high-functioning sociopath.
> >
> > DQ is not sadistic. He doesn't inflict pain and suffering for fun. He'll deal reasonably with you if he doesn't have a motive to do otherwise...but if he [i]does[/i] have such a motive, there's pretty much no limit to how much nasty he'll inflict on you, either. He just doesn't care....either way. If he could get what he wants by exterminating 25% of the human race, he'd look to see if there was a less destructive way. Grant him that much. If no such better way was available, he'd press the button in a heartbeat and sleep well afterward.
> >
> > His arch-foe Seaton, on the other hand, does care. OTOH, he's just as capable of ruthlessness and mass killing, albeit with better motives. But like Dr. Impossible, he's squeamish. Seaton lays out the plans to exterminate the Fenachrone, designs and builds the superweaponry to do it, aims it, sets everything up, and yes, under the circumstances genocide is defensible, it's the Fenachrone or everyone else at the hands of the Fenachrone, who have already exterminated several intelligent species. So Seaton sets everything up...and just can't push the button himself.
> >
> > That's not moral qualms, that's squeamishness.
> He is a Nazi, inasmuch as what he really wants is to
> found his own society that exterminates the weak.
> I don't recall if he has a favourite race of humans
> in that context; most people did, at the time.

DQ is not a racist. He couldn't care less about that. He cares about his own particular definitions of intellectual, physical, and genetic superiority, and he measures them individually.

Throwing the term 'nazi' around is mostly meaningless. The real Nazis were motivated by irrational theories, DQ is many things, but 'irrational' is not one of them. If anything, DQ is irrationally rational. His great weakness is his lack of humility and accurate self-image. He really, truly is one of the two smartest humans alive (Seaton being the other). He's almost Seaton's equal in most ways, his superior in a few. But he lacks regard for the Law of Unintended Consequences, and he is blind to his own flaws and pathologies.

The empire he's planning to found isn't going to work anything like he expects. But he'll probably cause epic levels of suffering and misery in the process of failing.

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 5:53:08 AM UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 12:17:16 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On Sunday, 28 May 2023 at 06:28:38 UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:59:29 PM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 6:07:39 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > > Five Surprisingly Sympathetic Supervillains
> > > > >
> > > > > An assortment of not-so-bad guys.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/05/24/five-surprisingly-sympathetic-supervillains/
> > > > > --
> > > > > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > > > > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > > > > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > > > > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> > > > I nominate Marc C DuQuesne - his progress through the Skylark stories is unique in my experience (admitedly character is not my first priority, so my experience is more limited than my reading).
> > > DuQuesne is basically a very-high-functioning sociopath.
> > >
> > > DQ is not sadistic. He doesn't inflict pain and suffering for fun. He'll deal reasonably with you if he doesn't have a motive to do otherwise...but if he [i]does[/i] have such a motive, there's pretty much no limit to how much nasty he'll inflict on you, either. He just doesn't care....either way. If he could get what he wants by exterminating 25% of the human race, he'd look to see if there was a less destructive way. Grant him that much. If no such better way was available, he'd press the button in a heartbeat and sleep well afterward.
> > >
> > > His arch-foe Seaton, on the other hand, does care. OTOH, he's just as capable of ruthlessness and mass killing, albeit with better motives. But like Dr. Impossible, he's squeamish. Seaton lays out the plans to exterminate the Fenachrone, designs and builds the superweaponry to do it, aims it, sets everything up, and yes, under the circumstances genocide is defensible, it's the Fenachrone or everyone else at the hands of the Fenachrone, who have already exterminated several intelligent species. So Seaton sets everything up...and just can't push the button himself.
> > >
> > > That's not moral qualms, that's squeamishness.
> > He is a Nazi, inasmuch as what he really wants is to
> > found his own society that exterminates the weak.
> > I don't recall if he has a favourite race of humans
> > in that context; most people did, at the time.
> DQ is not a racist. He couldn't care less about that. He cares about his own particular definitions of intellectual, physical, and genetic superiority, and he measures them individually.
>
> Throwing the term 'nazi' around is mostly meaningless. The real Nazis were motivated by irrational theories, DQ is many things, but 'irrational' is not one of them. If anything, DQ is irrationally rational. His great weakness is his lack of humility and accurate self-image. He really, truly is one of the two smartest humans alive (Seaton being the other). He's almost Seaton's equal in most ways, his superior in a few. But he lacks regard for the Law of Unintended Consequences, and he is blind to his own flaws and pathologies.
>
> The empire he's planning to found isn't going to work anything like he expects. But he'll probably cause epic levels of suffering and misery in the process of failing.
We've had DQ surface again in the Arenaverse, and we've seen one set of totalitarian elitists taken apart in Drake and Stirling's "The Chosen" - The Tragedy of Marc C. DuQuesne's Empire would be worth reading.