Glorious Apolitical SF

No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
historical example.

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <ui5i73$dqe$1@reader2.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>Glorious Apolitical SF
>
>No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>historical example.
>
>https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf

I have read (and in many cases reviewed) the following kill-crazy authors:
Karen K. Anderson, Poul Anderson, Harry Bates, Lloyd Biggie, Jr., J. F. Bone,
Leigh Brackett, Marion Zimmer Bradley, R. Bretnor, Fredric Brown,
Doris Pitkin Buck, William R. Burkett, Jr., F. M. Busby, John W. Campbell,
Hal Clement, Hank Davis, L. Sprague de Camp, Charles V. de Vet, T. R.
Fehrenbach, Daniel F. Galouye, Raymond Z. Gallun, Edmond Hamilton,
Robert A. Heinlein, Dean C. Ing, Jay Kay Klein, David A. Kyle,
R. A. Lafferty, C. C. MacApp, P. Schuyler Miller, Sam Moskowitz,
John Myers Myers, Larry Niven, Alan Nourse, Jerry E. Pournelle,
E. Hoffmann Price, Fred Saberhagen, George O. Smith, G. Harry Stine
(Lee Correy), Thomas Burnett Swann, Theodore L. Thomas, Jack Vance,
and Jack Williamson.

I have read (and in many cases reviewed the following abject
surrender-monkey authors: Forrest J Ackerman, Isaac Asimov, Peter S.
Beagle, Jerome Bixby, James Blish, Anthony Boucher, Ray Bradbury,
Terry Carr, Theodore R. Cogswell, Allan Danzig, Miriam Allen deFord,
Samuel R. Delany, Lester del Rey, Philip K. Dick, Thomas M. Disch,
Sonya Dorman, Harlan Ellison, Carol Emshwiller, Philip Jose Farmer,
Ron Goulart, Joseph Green, Harry Harrison, Daniel Keyes, Virginia Kidd,
Damon Knight, Ursula K. LeGuin, Fritz Leiber, A. M. Lightner,
Katherine MacLean, Barry Malzberg, Judith Merril, Robert P. Mills,
Kris Neville, Alexei Panshin, Emil Petaja, J. R. Pierce, Mack Reynolds,
Gene Roddenberry, Joanna Russ, James Sallis, Larry T. Shaw, T. L.
Sherred, Robert Silverberg, Norman Spinrad, Margaret St. Clair, Kate
Wilhelm, Richard Wilson, and Donald A. Wollheim.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> Glorious Apolitical SF
>
> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> historical example.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.

In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d-992e-c27e95400fa1n@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Glorious Apolitical SF
>>
>> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>> historical example.
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
>personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
>general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
>include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
>anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
>personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
>comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
>Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.

Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
during the Troubles.

(There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)

I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <ui5ptn$at4$1@reader2.panix.com>,
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <ui5i73$dqe$1@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
> >Glorious Apolitical SF
> >
> >No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> >historical example.
> >
> >https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>
> I have read (and in many cases reviewed) the following kill-crazy authors:
<snip>
> Robert A. Heinlein, Dean C. Ing, Jay Kay Klein, David A. Kyle,

I had noticed all the Futurians in the other list, but hadn't noticed
David A. Kyle in this one.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:40:09 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Glorious Apolitical SF
> >>
> >> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> >> historical example.
> >>
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
> >personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
> >general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
> >include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
> >anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
> >personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
> >comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
> >Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.
> Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
> during the Troubles.
>
> (There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
> have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)
>
> I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
> civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being enthusiastic for a cause of any description. I was born in N.Ireland in 1962. With the exception of family holidays - mostly in Scotland - I grew up there, in a quiet seaside village, and was educated in a school that benefited from the fact that energetic young teachers were not necessarily keen to work and live among the bright lights of the local city - Belfast. I was brought up to get out of N.Ireland at the first opportunity, which I achieved by going to university in England in 1980, and then working there. I am pretty sure that my interest in America (originally as introduced and explained by Alastair Cooke) and future imagined countries, typically by American authors, was a reaction to the dysfunction of N.Irish politics. While I wouldn't have advised hiring Hammer's Slammers to sort out the troubles (I can hear them saying that they can impose order, but not universal good will) I think at least the advisors of Falkenberg's Legion might have had something worthwhile to contribute.

In article <71a9ccdb-3897-4dee-920b-8beee139aeaan@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:40:09 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> Glorious Apolitical SF
>> >>
>> >> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>> >> historical example.
>> >>
>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>> >> --
>> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>> >There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
>> >personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
>> >general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
>> >include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
>> >anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
>> >personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
>> >comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
>> >Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.
>> Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
>> during the Troubles.
>>
>> (There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
>> have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)
>>
>> I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
>> civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections
>I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting
>that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being
>enthusiastic for a cause of any description. I was born in N.Ireland in
>1962. With the exception of family holidays - mostly in Scotland - I
>grew up there, in a quiet seaside village, and was educated in a school
>that benefited from the fact that energetic young teachers were not
>necessarily keen to work and live among the bright lights of the local
>city - Belfast. I was brought up to get out of N.Ireland at the first
>opportunity, which I achieved by going to university in England in
>1980, and then working there. I am pretty sure that my interest in
>America (originally as introduced and explained by Alastair Cooke) and
>future imagined countries, typically by American authors, was a
>reaction to the dysfunction of N.Irish politics. While I wouldn't have
>advised hiring Hammer's Slammers to sort out the troubles (I can hear
>them saying that they can impose order, but not universal good will) I
>think at least the advisors of Falkenberg's Legion might have had
>something worthwhile to contribute.

About a quarter of my ancestors are Catholic Irish but they left
due to the Potato Famine, not more recent unpleasantnesses. That
said, governments have tried firm, resolute military solutions
along the lines JEP preferred. They did not produce peace and
stability or even control of much of Ireland.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <71a9ccdb-3897-4dee-920b-8beee139aeaan@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

snip

>Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections
>I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting
>that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being
>enthusiastic for a cause of any description.

A recurring theme in Shaw is distaste and contempt for regional
nationalists. It turns up in a number of his novel. I had not thought
about it in the context of being N. Irish.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:27:24 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <71a9ccdb-3897-4dee...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:40:09 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> In article <f2c550dd-4860-437d...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >> >On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> Glorious Apolitical SF
> >> >>
> >> >> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> >> >> historical example.
> >> >>
> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> >> >> --
> >> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >> >There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with
> >> >personal experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more
> >> >general term because I see that if I include the Korean war you could
> >> >include Jerry Pournelle, who wrote quite a lot about future
> >> >anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the UK equivalent would be
> >> >personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles. The only author that
> >> >comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well described by
> >> >Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.
> >> Bob Shaw was born in Belfast. He and his family moved to England
> >> during the Troubles.
> >>
> >> (There was a short stay in Canada, which Shaw does not appear to
> >> have enjoyed, but they moved back to Ireland and then to England)
> >>
> >> I'm guessing people who experienced anti-insurgency efforts as
> >> civilians had very different experiences than the soldiers.
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >Thanks for that - if I ever knew that Bob Shaw had Belfast connections
> >I had forgotten it - perhaps now I will remember it. It is interesting
> >that Shaw's character Grainger is a cynic - I can't see him as being
> >enthusiastic for a cause of any description. I was born in N.Ireland in
> >1962. With the exception of family holidays - mostly in Scotland - I
> >grew up there, in a quiet seaside village, and was educated in a school
> >that benefited from the fact that energetic young teachers were not
> >necessarily keen to work and live among the bright lights of the local
> >city - Belfast. I was brought up to get out of N.Ireland at the first
> >opportunity, which I achieved by going to university in England in
> >1980, and then working there. I am pretty sure that my interest in
> >America (originally as introduced and explained by Alastair Cooke) and
> >future imagined countries, typically by American authors, was a
> >reaction to the dysfunction of N.Irish politics. While I wouldn't have
> >advised hiring Hammer's Slammers to sort out the troubles (I can hear
> >them saying that they can impose order, but not universal good will) I
> >think at least the advisors of Falkenberg's Legion might have had
> >something worthwhile to contribute.
> About a quarter of my ancestors are Catholic Irish but they left
> due to the Potato Famine, not more recent unpleasantnesses. That
> said, governments have tried firm, resolute military solutions
> along the lines JEP preferred. They did not produce peace and
> stability or even control of much of Ireland.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Pournelle, with Stirling, wrote a series, of which one was "Prince Of Sparta", and another "Falkenberg's Legion". Falkenberg's father was a professor, and Falkenberg, even on his own, is much more than a simple purveyor of brute force solutions. In "Prince of Sparta" Falkenberg's legion is not only careful to gather and make use of intellegence; they have a highly educated advisor, Dr Caldwell Whitlock, described as a political consultant, who describes the problem they face on Sparta as posed by a revolutionary force operating according to Maoist insurgency doctrine. I haven't found the passage, but somewhere in that series there is at least one example story about being careful when dealng with insurgents whose plan is to provoke an over-reaction and be ready to record it on video.

If Pournelle had wanted to portray the _really_ firm application of military force, there are real life forces much more specialised in pure aggression than Falkenberg's legion for him to draw on. In the beginning of his Mercenary series he references the French Foreign Legion (unfavourably). The British Parachute Regiment includes training specifically designed to increase the aggressive instincts of fit young men who have volunteered for an elite fighting force ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_(military_training_exercise) ). There is evidence to suggest that this training achieves its goal, which may indeed be necessary for a force whose capabilities include parachuting into enemy territory and holding a position for some time against assaults from all directions without further support, but may be less useful in maintaining public order using the minimum necessary force against provication.

On 11/4/23 06:50, James Nicoll wrote:
> Glorious Apolitical SF
>
> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> historical example.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf

Something that would be interesting would be an annotation that showed
which of the authors in both lists were veterans and which were combat
veterans. Note that there is quite a bit of difference between having
worked in "supply" and having fired your weapon in anger.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer (Retired, mostly)

In article <ui69i7$3hntn$1@dont-email.me>, BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> wrote:
>On 11/4/23 06:50, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Glorious Apolitical SF
>>
>> No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
>> historical example.
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
>
>Something that would be interesting would be an annotation that showed
>which of the authors in both lists were veterans and which were combat
>veterans. Note that there is quite a bit of difference between having
>worked in "supply" and having fired your weapon in anger.

I am one hundred percept unwilling to do that much homework.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:02:05 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:

> I have read (and in many cases reviewed) the following kill-crazy authors:

> I have read (and in many cases reviewed the following abject
> surrender-monkey authors:

I'm not sure what the correct response is here. I was thinking of saying
that there was no need for you to be studiously apolitical...

Of course, the historical facts are confusing.

On the one hand, the very existence of the Vietnamese boat people
shows that the U.S. was genuinely opposing the establishment of
a cruel dictatorial regime in South Vietnam.

On the other hand,
- there are the regrettable incidents of napalm hitting civilians,
- there is the My Lai massacre, for which the U.S. military
justice system did not appear to properly avenge,
- there is the recent claim that Tom Dooley was blackmailed into
writing false atrocity propaganda against the Viet Cong,
- there is the revelation in the Pentagon Papers that the U.S. was
behind the overthrow of the democratic government of South Vietnam
under Ngo Dinh Diem and its replacement with a more amenable
autocracy.

Still, the _real_ issue is likely to have been inflicting conscription on
Americans in a situation where the survival of the United States
itself was not clearly at stake.
People who openly admired Hitler and Mussolini before World War
II started never faced anything like McCarthyism; the U.S. didn't
proactively respond to the Nazi threat by defending Ethiopia against
Italy, or fighting on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War,
which would have been comparable to its actions in Korea and
Vietnam.
I put this down to the power of the business community as campaign
donors, plus their regarding Communism, with its calls to world
revolution, as an existential threat. Putin dropped the calls to world
revolution, and so his early aggressions against Georgia and
Ukraine were tolerated.

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-4, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:50:33 PM UTC, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Glorious Apolitical SF
> >
> > No genre is so studiously apolitical as science fiction. Take this
> > historical example.
> >
> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/glorious-apolitical-sf
> > --
> > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> There is an article to be wrriten somewhere about SF authors with personal
> experience of America's anti-insurgency wars. (I use the more general term
> because I see that if I include the Korean war you could include Jerry Pournelle,
> who wrote quite a lot about future anti-insurgency campaigns). I suppose the
> UK equivalent would be personal experience of the N.Ireland troubles.

Don't forget this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency

Regarding Paul Linebarger/Cordwainer Smith

[quote]

He was involved in the Korean War and the Malayan Emergency, and was promoted
colonel in the army reserves. He advised President Kennedy.

[/quote]

https://www.tor.com/2016/10/07/the-what-he-did-the-poetic-science-fiction-of-cordwainer-smith/

> The only author that comes to mind for that is James White, whose work is well
> described by Wikipedia as explicitly pacifist.

--
Kevin R