Google News, these days, includes some fact checks by news agencies
at the bottom of the page.

Agence France Presse thought it necessary, to help prevent the public
from being misled, to fact-check a claim that Republican candidate for
the Republican Presidential nomination, Nikki Haley...

Used the U.S. military system known as HAARP to create stormy weather
for the Iowa caucus to favor her candidacy.

HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
help from space aliens.

John Savard

On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 10:26:00 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> Google News, these days, includes some fact checks by news agencies
> at the bottom of the page.
>
> Agence France Presse thought it necessary, to help prevent the public
> from being misled, to fact-check a claim that Republican candidate for
> the Republican Presidential nomination, Nikki Haley...
>
> Used the U.S. military system known as HAARP to create stormy weather
> for the Iowa caucus to favor her candidacy.
>
> HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
> upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
> think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
> kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
> help from space aliens.

Link, please?

Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
they're hearing that from their church preachers.

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:46:03 AM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 10:26:00 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> > Google News, these days, includes some fact checks by news agencies
> > at the bottom of the page.
> >
> > Agence France Presse thought it necessary, to help prevent the public
> > from being misled, to fact-check a claim that Republican candidate for
> > the Republican Presidential nomination, Nikki Haley...
> >
> > Used the U.S. military system known as HAARP to create stormy weather
> > for the Iowa caucus to favor her candidacy.
> >
> > HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
> > upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
> > think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
> > kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
> > help from space aliens.
> Link, please?

https://x.com/lauraloomer/status/1745598055271846400

There is a large overlap of Trump supporters and conspiracy
theorists. Don't get me started.

"God made Trump"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIYQfyA_1Hc&pp=ygUJR29kIHRydW1w

Pt

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 4:46:03 AM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> Link, please?

I didn't follow the link shown by Google News, and if I give you the link to
Google News, I can't guarantee your results would be the same as mine.

But I returned to Google News, and it was still there, so I followed it for
you:

https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.34EQ8LR

John Savard

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:23:43 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> There is a large overlap of Trump supporters and conspiracy
> theorists. Don't get me started.

Oh, certainly. If I hadn't been aware of that before, I certainly
would have learned it from the news coverage of the violent
acts of January 6, 2021.

But while I gave a positive rating to the "context" that appeared
on the page you linked, it seemed to me that a fact check such
as that from AFP, aimed presumably at the _general public_,
was kind of unnecessary, since for most people, this claim was
just too ridiculous for words.

John Savard

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 07:43:12 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:23:43?AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> There is a large overlap of Trump supporters and conspiracy
>> theorists. Don't get me started.
>
>Oh, certainly. If I hadn't been aware of that before, I certainly
>would have learned it from the news coverage of the violent
>acts of January 6, 2021.
>
>But while I gave a positive rating to the "context" that appeared
>on the page you linked, it seemed to me that a fact check such
>as that from AFP, aimed presumably at the _general public_,
>was kind of unnecessary, since for most people, this claim was
>just too ridiculous for words.

I suspect that "most people" have never heard of HAARP.

But this wasn't aimed at "most people". It was aimed at semi-fascist
ultra-MAGA types, who oppose Haley because /she is not Trump/.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 03:46:01 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 10:26:00 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>> Google News, these days, includes some fact checks by news agencies
>> at the bottom of the page.
>>
>> Agence France Presse thought it necessary, to help prevent the public
>> from being misled, to fact-check a claim that Republican candidate for
>> the Republican Presidential nomination, Nikki Haley...
>>
>> Used the U.S. military system known as HAARP to create stormy weather
>> for the Iowa caucus to favor her candidacy.
>>
>> HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
>> upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
>> think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
>> kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
>> help from space aliens.
>
>Link, please?
>
>Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>they're hearing that from their church preachers.

About a decade ago, /Christianity Today/ had an article on a group of
unchurched Christians who had apparently left organized religion
decades earlier and had passed on their religion to their children
themselves.

The author was very concerned. But not about why these people's
ancestors had left whatever group they left, oh no. The author was
concerned because, /not attending an Evangelical church/, they might
inadvertently vote for a Democrat, having missed the proper
indoctrination by the minister.

The rot goes deep and is decades old. Rooting it out will be quite
difficult -- but at least it will be relatively peaceful, if a bit
raucous, as the more vigorous means employed in the past are not legal
and/or violate the Constitution.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 12:04:01 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 03:46:01 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 10:26:00 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> Google News, these days, includes some fact checks by news agencies
> >> at the bottom of the page.
> >>
> >> Agence France Presse thought it necessary, to help prevent the public
> >> from being misled, to fact-check a claim that Republican candidate for
> >> the Republican Presidential nomination, Nikki Haley...
> >>
> >> Used the U.S. military system known as HAARP to create stormy weather
> >> for the Iowa caucus to favor her candidacy.
> >>
> >> HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
> >> upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
> >> think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
> >> kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
> >> help from space aliens.
> >
> >Link, please?
> >
> >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> About a decade ago, /Christianity Today/ had an article on a group of
> unchurched Christians who had apparently left organized religion
> decades earlier and had passed on their religion to their children
> themselves.
>
> The author was very concerned. But not about why these people's
> ancestors had left whatever group they left, oh no. The author was
> concerned because, /not attending an Evangelical church/, they might
> inadvertently vote for a Democrat, having missed the proper
> indoctrination by the minister.
>
> The rot goes deep and is decades old. Rooting it out will be quite
> difficult -- but at least it will be relatively peaceful, if a bit
> raucous, as the more vigorous means employed in the past are not legal
> and/or violate the Constitution.

I just read a paper which claimed that the US populations most susceptible
to conspiracy theories were Christian Nationalists and biblical literalist Christians.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jssr.12836

I can't speak to the quality of the source, but suspect its low.

pt

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>they're hearing that from their church preachers.

Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:40:39 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
> --scott

I'll add that craziness can go both ways. There's a sub Reddit
called Trump666, which maintains that he's the Biblical
Antichrist. It has nearly 3000 members.

Pt

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 7:05:57 PM UTC-5, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:40:39 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> > >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> > >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> > >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> > Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
> > --scott
> I'll add that craziness can go both ways. There's a sub Reddit
> called Trump666, which maintains that he's the Biblical
> Antichrist. It has nearly 3000 members.

The type of Evangelicals who back Trunmp are actually less connected
to local congregations and pastors than GOPers have been in the past.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/08/us/politics/donald-trump-evangelicals-iowa.html

As an ex-Catholic, I see this as the "every man his own Pope"
tendency in Protestantism taken to its logical extreme.

I'm haven't been a Republican for decades, nor a believer for
about as long. (Almost 50 years...?)

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310

On Wednesday 17 January 2024 at 00:05:57 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:40:39 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> > >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> > >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> > >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> > Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
> > --scott
> I'll add that craziness can go both ways. There's a sub Reddit
> called Trump666, which maintains that he's the Biblical
> Antichrist. It has nearly 3000 members.

Does it include the argument that since the
Presidential car is known as "The Beast",
he or she that rides it is the Lady from Babylon?
(so to speak)

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 10:45:54 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 January 2024 at 00:05:57 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:40:39 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> > > >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> > > >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> > > >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> > > Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
> > > --scott
> > I'll add that craziness can go both ways. There's a sub Reddit
> > called Trump666, which maintains that he's the Biblical
> > Antichrist. It has nearly 3000 members.
> Does it include the argument that since the
> Presidential car is known as "The Beast",
> he or she that rides it is the Lady from Babylon?
> (so to speak)

I think that's only if the Prez is giving the Pope a ride.

--
Kevin R

On 17/01/24 13:05, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:40:39 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>>> American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>>> sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>>> they're hearing that from their church preachers.
>> Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
>> --scott
>
> I'll add that craziness can go both ways. There's a sub Reddit
> called Trump666, which maintains that he's the Biblical
> Antichrist. It has nearly 3000 members.
>

A statistician would obviously declare me in the middle of the perfectly
sane if I was to admit that I believe both to be true.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
>upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
>think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
>kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
>help from space aliens.

Why not? According to the Weekly World News, presidents have been receiving
help from space aliens since Kennedy at least. Why not candidates? Just
think... have you ever seen Nikki Haley and Elvis Presley at the same time?
Think about it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 1/17/2024 8:06 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
>> upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
>> think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
>> kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
>> help from space aliens.
>
> Why not? According to the Weekly World News, presidents have been receiving
> help from space aliens since Kennedy at least.

Eisenhower signed a treaty with them!

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 09:46:46 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 12:04:01?PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 03:46:01 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 10:26:00 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> Google News, these days, includes some fact checks by news agencies
>> >> at the bottom of the page.
>> >>
>> >> Agence France Presse thought it necessary, to help prevent the public
>> >> from being misled, to fact-check a claim that Republican candidate for
>> >> the Republican Presidential nomination, Nikki Haley...
>> >>
>> >> Used the U.S. military system known as HAARP to create stormy weather
>> >> for the Iowa caucus to favor her candidacy.
>> >>
>> >> HAARP is a system for studying the radio propagation properties of the
>> >> upper atmosphere. Only some out-to-lunch New Age conspiracy nuts
>> >> think it's a death ray that can change the weather. Fact checking that
>> >> kind of claim is like fact checking a claim that Nikki Haley was recieving
>> >> help from space aliens.
>> >
>> >Link, please?
>> >
>> >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>> >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>> >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>> >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
>> About a decade ago, /Christianity Today/ had an article on a group of
>> unchurched Christians who had apparently left organized religion
>> decades earlier and had passed on their religion to their children
>> themselves.
>>
>> The author was very concerned. But not about why these people's
>> ancestors had left whatever group they left, oh no. The author was
>> concerned because, /not attending an Evangelical church/, they might
>> inadvertently vote for a Democrat, having missed the proper
>> indoctrination by the minister.
>>
>> The rot goes deep and is decades old. Rooting it out will be quite
>> difficult -- but at least it will be relatively peaceful, if a bit
>> raucous, as the more vigorous means employed in the past are not legal
>> and/or violate the Constitution.
>
>I just read a paper which claimed that the US populations most susceptible
>to conspiracy theories were Christian Nationalists and biblical literalist Christians.
>
>https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jssr.12836
>
>I can't speak to the quality of the source, but suspect its low.

I can't speak to the quality of the source either. It is, I would
point out, intellectual in tone, although the idea that the
possibility of religious belief affecting people is "recent" shows a
remarkable lack of historical perspective.

It almost reads as-if a third or fourth generation secular humanist
recently became aware that some people are still religious in the
tradtional sense. Such a person might well find the "discovery" that
religion actually effects people to be "recent".

The other side, BTW, when in a calm discursive mode is no better.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 16 Jan 2024 23:40:34 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>>American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>>sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>>they're hearing that from their church preachers.
>
>Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.

Well, he /does/ fit some parts of the description of the
Beast/Antichrist I've been reading about recently (my Grandfather had
a major interest in this stuff). And there is that bit about someone
"making everyone worhip the Beast as a god" (wildly paraphrased, BTW),
which might tie into some of the stories I've been seeing in the
Windows News thingy.

In fact, I'm surprised nobody has founded a "First Church of Trump"
yet. Perhaps they are waiting to see if "Trump, Martyr" will become
available.

This is the last stages of a problem that began decades ago. Slowly
but surely, a fair part of these groups have wandered outside the
bounds of what it is to be Christian. And now in some cases it is
clear and explicit.

IMHO, of course. YMMV. As may theirs.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Wednesday 17 January 2024 at 04:06:07 UTC, Kevrob wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 10:45:54 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On Wednesday 17 January 2024 at 00:05:57 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:40:39 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > > > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> > > > >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> > > > >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> > > > >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> > > > Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
> > > > --scott
> > > I'll add that craziness can go both ways. There's a sub Reddit
> > > called Trump666, which maintains that he's the Biblical
> > > Antichrist. It has nearly 3000 members.
> > Does it include the argument that since the
> > Presidential car is known as "The Beast",
> > he or she that rides it is the Lady from Babylon?
> > (so to speak)
> I think that's only if the Prez is giving the Pope a ride.

Well - I think "Babylon" in Revelations is code
for Rome, but as a commercial power - it doesn't
mean Roman Catholicism.

On the other hand, the "Authorised Version" bible
is a work of translation into English by Protestants,
commissioned by King James. It may have been
about the Pope for them.

References say that the name of "The Beast"
has been applied since George W. Bush's car.

ObSF: _Transmetropolitan_ by Warren Ellis et al.,
published 1997-2002, features "The Beast" as
White incumbent president of a future United States
like in Judge Dredd, except "Judges" run Judge Dredd's
City. "The Beast" is a nickname so successfully given
by the series antihero Spider Jerusalem that
The Beast's actual name is hardly remembered.
There are religious references in the story overall,
but Mr, er, Jerusalem describes The Beast as
"a big black animal squatting in the heart of America"
which is rather unfortunate language. The Moriarty
of politics perhaps. As I say, The Beast there is
a White man, but he wears dark suits.

The Smiler is another significant political character
in the story, with echoes of Tony Blair and
Princess Diana.

In article <d576c321-59b8-4915-ad5c-305a56cf379dn@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>they're hearing that from their church preachers.

I'd be profoundly uncomfortable hearing that sort of thing
from the pulpit, even regarding a candidate that I liked.
"Walk out brushing the dust off my feet as I go" uncomfortable.

This election, it's purely a question of which evil is the
lesser evil, or the less dangerous evil regardless of how
objectively evil the evil is.

When I lived in California, the outcome of the election was so
completely a foregone conclusion that I could comfortably cast
a "A Plague on Both Your Parties" vote. (Either Libertarian,
or write in Cthulhu if the Lib was more of a nutcase than
usual.) Now, in a state that's slightly more in play (though
not much) I think I'll have to make an actual choice between
the two.

Among my considerations: A weakling president invites agressors
to agress. A crazy president (as long as not too crazy)
causes agressors to pause and wonder "Uh... just how crazy
is he, anyway?" which, perhaps, promotes a more stable
world situation.

(Favorite meme from a few elections back: Grumpy Cat, with
the caption "OK, the joke isn't funny any more. Bring out
the real candidates.")

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:32:57 PM UTC-5, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <d576c321-59b8-4915...@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> I'd be profoundly uncomfortable hearing that sort of thing
> from the pulpit, even regarding a candidate that I liked.
> "Walk out brushing the dust off my feet as I go" uncomfortable.
>
> This election, it's purely a question of which evil is the
> lesser evil, or the less dangerous evil regardless of how
> objectively evil the evil is.
>
> When I lived in California, the outcome of the election was so
> completely a foregone conclusion that I could comfortably cast
> a "A Plague on Both Your Parties" vote. (Either Libertarian,
> or write in Cthulhu if the Lib was more of a nutcase than
> usual.) Now, in a state that's slightly more in play (though
> not much) I think I'll have to make an actual choice between
> the two.
>
> Among my considerations: A weakling president invites agressors
> to agress. A crazy president (as long as not too crazy)
> causes agressors to pause and wonder "Uh... just how crazy
> is he, anyway?" which, perhaps, promotes a more stable
> world situation.

But who's the weakling? I'm no fan of either man, but Trump kowtows
to a dictator over his own intelligence community, wants to withdraw
from the defense alliance that has kept the peace for nearly 80 years,
and wants to cut off aid to Ukraine, which quite aside from having
a right to exist, has greatly weakened one of our major opponents on the
world stage. He's also facing multiple indictments, is in denial of the fact
that he lost the election

Trump has made it clear that he intends to replace government officials
from top to bottom with people loyal to him, and not to the constitution.
That's straight out of the Dictator's Playbook.
He's spoken several times of wanting to emulate the dictators-for-life
he admires in Russia, China, and NK.

I'm no fan of Biden, but the idea of Trump getting back in power scares
the bejesus out of me.

pt

On 1/17/2024 1:32 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <d576c321-59b8-4915-ad5c-305a56cf379dn@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>> Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>> American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>> sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>> they're hearing that from their church preachers.
>
> I'd be profoundly uncomfortable hearing that sort of thing
> from the pulpit, even regarding a candidate that I liked.
> "Walk out brushing the dust off my feet as I go" uncomfortable.
>
> This election, it's purely a question of which evil is the
> lesser evil, or the less dangerous evil regardless of how
> objectively evil the evil is.
>
> When I lived in California, the outcome of the election was so
> completely a foregone conclusion that I could comfortably cast
> a "A Plague on Both Your Parties" vote. (Either Libertarian,
> or write in Cthulhu if the Lib was more of a nutcase than
> usual.) Now, in a state that's slightly more in play (though
> not much) I think I'll have to make an actual choice between
> the two.
>
> Among my considerations: A weakling president invites agressors
> to agress. A crazy president (as long as not too crazy)
> causes agressors to pause and wonder "Uh... just how crazy
> is he, anyway?" which, perhaps, promotes a more stable
> world situation.
>
And if the "crazy president" is actively trying to get in good with the
aggressors and promising them he won't intervene if they feel like
taking over other countries...?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 8:32:57 AM UTC+11, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <d576c321-59b8-4915...@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
> >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
> >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
> >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
> I'd be profoundly uncomfortable hearing that sort of thing
> from the pulpit, even regarding a candidate that I liked.
> "Walk out brushing the dust off my feet as I go" uncomfortable.
>
> This election, it's purely a question of which evil is the
> lesser evil, or the less dangerous evil regardless of how
> objectively evil the evil is.
>
> When I lived in California, the outcome of the election was so
> completely a foregone conclusion that I could comfortably cast
> a "A Plague on Both Your Parties" vote. (Either Libertarian,
> or write in Cthulhu if the Lib was more of a nutcase than
> usual.) Now, in a state that's slightly more in play (though
> not much) I think I'll have to make an actual choice between
> the two.
>
> Among my considerations: A weakling president invites agressors
> to agress. A crazy president (as long as not too crazy)
> causes agressors to pause and wonder "Uh... just how crazy
> is he, anyway?" which, perhaps, promotes a more stable
> world situation.

Rather ignoring the fact that Trump is fine with aggressors provided they're sending money to his businesses
>
> (Favorite meme from a few elections back: Grumpy Cat, with
> the caption "OK, the joke isn't funny any more. Bring out
> the real candidates.")

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:19:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday 17 January 2024 at 04:06:07 UTC, Kevrob wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 10:45:54?PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 17 January 2024 at 00:05:57 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 6:40:39?PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> > > > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>> > > > >American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>> > > > >sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>> > > > >they're hearing that from their church preachers.
>> > > > Oh, I can believe that. God likely sent him to punish them.
>> > > > --scott
>> > > I'll add that craziness can go both ways. There's a sub Reddit
>> > > called Trump666, which maintains that he's the Biblical
>> > > Antichrist. It has nearly 3000 members.
>> > Does it include the argument that since the
>> > Presidential car is known as "The Beast",
>> > he or she that rides it is the Lady from Babylon?
>> > (so to speak)
>> I think that's only if the Prez is giving the Pope a ride.
>
>Well - I think "Babylon" in Revelations is code
>for Rome, but as a commercial power - it doesn't
>mean Roman Catholicism.
>
>On the other hand, the "Authorised Version" bible
>is a work of translation into English by Protestants,
>commissioned by King James. It may have been
>about the Pope for them.

One of my Grandfather's books represents a tradition in which
"Babylon" (as a system, not an individual -- that is, when mounted on
a beast) is organized religion generally.

Basically, any group that isn't spreading the Gospel 24/365 (366 in
leap years). This includes RC, but a lot more as well.

Lot's of wierd stuff am I reading!

>References say that the name of "The Beast"
>has been applied since George W. Bush's car.
>
>ObSF: _Transmetropolitan_ by Warren Ellis et al.,
>published 1997-2002, features "The Beast" as
>White incumbent president of a future United States
>like in Judge Dredd, except "Judges" run Judge Dredd's
>City. "The Beast" is a nickname so successfully given
>by the series antihero Spider Jerusalem that
>The Beast's actual name is hardly remembered.
>There are religious references in the story overall,
>but Mr, er, Jerusalem describes The Beast as
>"a big black animal squatting in the heart of America"
>which is rather unfortunate language. The Moriarty
>of politics perhaps. As I say, The Beast there is
>a White man, but he wears dark suits.
>
>The Smiler is another significant political character
>in the story, with echoes of Tony Blair and
>Princess Diana.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 21:32:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt
<usenet@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:

>In article <d576c321-59b8-4915-ad5c-305a56cf379dn@googlegroups.com>,
>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>Vaguely in that area, I'm uncomfortable hearing
>>American "evangelical" citizens saying that God has
>>sent Donald Trump to them, because presumably
>>they're hearing that from their church preachers.
>
>I'd be profoundly uncomfortable hearing that sort of thing
>from the pulpit, even regarding a candidate that I liked.
>"Walk out brushing the dust off my feet as I go" uncomfortable.

Articles I've read suggest a lot of Evangelicals -- particularly older
ones -- are doing pretty much that. To the point that, for a while at
least, there were more people in mainline churches on Sunday mornings
than in Evangelical ones -- for the first time in decades.

Complaints cited included: don't hear the Gospel preached, tired of
being told what to do, "Christian Nationalists" are clearly not
Christian and are overunning the church.

>This election, it's purely a question of which evil is the
>lesser evil, or the less dangerous evil regardless of how
>objectively evil the evil is.

That kind of depends on who runs.

My take: whichever Party nominates a post-Baby-Boom candidate will
win. Hands down. No matter which old fogey is being run against.

>When I lived in California, the outcome of the election was so
>completely a foregone conclusion that I could comfortably cast
>a "A Plague on Both Your Parties" vote. (Either Libertarian,
>or write in Cthulhu if the Lib was more of a nutcase than
>usual.) Now, in a state that's slightly more in play (though
>not much) I think I'll have to make an actual choice between
>the two.
>
>Among my considerations: A weakling president invites agressors
>to agress. A crazy president (as long as not too crazy)
>causes agressors to pause and wonder "Uh... just how crazy
>is he, anyway?" which, perhaps, promotes a more stable
>world situation.

And yet we have survived several weak Presidents over the years.
Including Trump, who accomplished so little because he basically had
(and has) no idea whatsoever of what the job is or how the gummint
works.

>(Favorite meme from a few elections back: Grumpy Cat, with
>the caption "OK, the joke isn't funny any more. Bring out
>the real candidates.")
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"