On 2024-01-26, Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
> To quote Kevin Standlee's ("current Chair of the legal entity that owns
> the service marks of the World Science Fiction Society") summary
> (https://kevin-standlee.dreamwidth.org/2296661.html) of the relevant
> rules governing the World Science Fiction Society
> (https://www.wsfs.org/rules-of-the-world-science-fiction-society/):

<snip>

> There is no entity that is superior to the individual Worldcon committee.

Almost, but not quite accurate.

There's the WSFS' "Worldcon Intellectual Property Ltd", the commercial
entity which holds the service marks of the WSFS.

They've announced that they've censured McCarty, Standlee, Ben Yalow and
the head of the Chengdu Worldcon; McCarty and Standlee, in addition,
have now resigned from their official positions in the WIP.

McCarty seems to have gone entirely from the body, Standlee only appears
to have left the Chair.

https://file770.com/worldcon-intellectual-property-announces-censure-of-mccarty-chen-shi-and-yalow-mccarty-resigns-eastlake-is-new-chair/

--
dgold <news@dgold.eu>

In article <updqdb$el6$1@dgold.eu>, dgold <news@dgold.eu> wrote:
>On 2024-01-26, Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>> To quote Kevin Standlee's ("current Chair of the legal entity that owns
>> the service marks of the World Science Fiction Society") summary
>> (https://kevin-standlee.dreamwidth.org/2296661.html) of the relevant
>> rules governing the World Science Fiction Society
>> (https://www.wsfs.org/rules-of-the-world-science-fiction-society/):
>
><snip>
>
>> There is no entity that is superior to the individual Worldcon committee.
>
>Almost, but not quite accurate.
>
>There's the WSFS' "Worldcon Intellectual Property Ltd", the commercial
>entity which holds the service marks of the WSFS.
>
>They've announced that they've censured McCarty, Standlee, Ben Yalow and
>the head of the Chengdu Worldcon; McCarty and Standlee, in addition,
>have now resigned from their official positions in the WIP.
>
>McCarty seems to have gone entirely from the body, Standlee only appears
>to have left the Chair.
>
>https://file770.com/worldcon-intellectual-property-announces-censure-of-mccarty-chen-shi-and-yalow-mccarty-resigns-eastlake-is-new-chair/

True. However, this won't affect the 2023 Hugo results.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2024-01-31, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <updqdb$el6$1@dgold.eu>, dgold <news@dgold.eu> wrote:
>>On 2024-01-26, Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>>> To quote Kevin Standlee's ("current Chair of the legal entity that owns
>>> the service marks of the World Science Fiction Society") summary
>>> (https://kevin-standlee.dreamwidth.org/2296661.html) of the relevant
>>> rules governing the World Science Fiction Society
>>> (https://www.wsfs.org/rules-of-the-world-science-fiction-society/):
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> There is no entity that is superior to the individual Worldcon committee.
>>
>>There's the WSFS' "Worldcon Intellectual Property Ltd", the commercial
>>entity which holds the service marks of the WSFS.
>>
>
> True. However, this won't affect the 2023 Hugo results.

Oh no, that's (sadly) a given. These removals, hopefully soon to be
followed by Yalow and Chen's resignations, should mean that the same
people won't be around to do it again in 24 and onwards.

Silver linings where they can be found, James, silver linings.
--
dgold <news@dgold.eu>

In article <up29tv$39ohb$1@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>Charles Stross wrote his own version of this.
>
>http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2024/01/worldcon-in-the-news.html

Fascinating.

Especially the update at the end:

"A commenter just drew my attention to this news item on
China.org.cn, dated October 23rd, 2023, right after the
worldcon. It begins:

Investment deals valued at approximately $1.09 billion
were signed during the 81st World Science Fiction Convention
(Worldcon) held in Chengdu, Sichuan province, last week at its
inaugural industrial development summit, marking significant
progress in the advancement of sci-fi development in China.

The deals included 21 sci-fi industry projects involving
companies that produce films, parks, and immersive sci-fi
experiences ..."

That's a metric fuckton of moolah in play, and it would totally
account for the fan-run convention folks being discreetly elbowed
out of the way and the entire event being stage-managed as a
backdrop for a major industrial event to bootstrap creative
industries (film, TV, and games) in Chengdu. And—looking for
the most charitable interpretation here—the hapless western
WSFS people being carried along for the ride to provide a veneer
of worldcon-ness to what was basically Chinese venture capital
hijacking the event and then sanitizing it politically.

Follow the money."

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>
>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>> is being reported correctly?
>
>I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>communist country.
>
in what world is modern china a communist country?

On 2/4/2024 5:04 PM, Mad Hamish wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>
>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>>> is being reported correctly?
>>
>> I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>> Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>> communist country.
>>
> in what world is modern china a communist country?

This one where "communist" is another way of saying "authoritarian".

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 17:26:19 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 2/4/2024 5:04 PM, Mad Hamish wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>>
>>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>>>> is being reported correctly?
>>>
>>> I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>> Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>>> communist country.
>>>
>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>
>This one where "communist" is another way of saying "authoritarian".

And "Fascist" or "Nazi" are other ways of saying "authoritarian".
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
<newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>
>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>>> is being reported correctly?
>>
>>I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>>communist country.
>>
>in what world is modern china a communist country?

The real world.

Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
is the Communist Party.

Or has that changed?
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 17:26:19 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>
>>This one where "communist" is another way of saying "authoritarian".
>
>And "Fascist" or "Nazi" are other ways of saying "authoritarian".

It's very confusing. I used to have a job where I would get interviewed
by security people on an annual basis. They would ask if I had been in
contact with anyone who held views contrary to American interests and
I would tell them my grandmother was a fascist and had a picture of the
Duce hanging on her wall (next to a picture of Jesus and one of John F.
Kennedy). And EVERY time I would have to explain to them what fascism
actually was because none of them had any idea.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
><newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>> =
>https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship=
>-babel
>>>>=20
>>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their =
>Chinese
>>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred =
>and
>>>> is being reported correctly?
>>>
>>>I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.=20
>>>Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a=20
>>>communist country.
>>>
>>in what world is modern china a communist country?
>
>The real world.
>
>Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>is the Communist Party.
>
>Or has that changed?

IIRC, it was J.P. Hogan who wrote that Russia was communist only for six months
in 1917, thereafter just another dictatorship.

Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>>is the Communist Party.
>>
>>Or has that changed?

"Every day, Chinese communism becomes less communist and more Chinese."
-- my asian studies teacher in 1980 or so.

>IIRC, it was J.P. Hogan who wrote that Russia was communist only for six months
>in 1917, thereafter just another dictatorship.

I'd give it longer than that. At least until 1921 when they got the NEP.
By the time the NEP was over in '28 or so, Stalin's collectivization was
the order of the day and one could argue that that was sort of a form of
communism even if it could not be argued to be effective or beneficial to
long-term socialism.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 2/5/2024 9:45 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 17:26:19 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>>
>>> This one where "communist" is another way of saying "authoritarian".
>>
>> And "Fascist" or "Nazi" are other ways of saying "authoritarian".
>
> It's very confusing. I used to have a job where I would get interviewed
> by security people on an annual basis. They would ask if I had been in
> contact with anyone who held views contrary to American interests and
> I would tell them my grandmother was a fascist and had a picture of the
> Duce hanging on her wall (next to a picture of Jesus and one of John F.
> Kennedy). And EVERY time I would have to explain to them what fascism
> actually was because none of them had any idea.
>
You couldn't just say "The guy who inspired Hitler."?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <1832silbotti0mubjb3np8i9d4m2vpkq54@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
><newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>
>https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>>
>>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>>>> is being reported correctly?
>>>
>>>I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>>Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>>>communist country.
>>>
>>in what world is modern china a communist country?
>
>The real world.
>
>Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>is the Communist Party.
>
>Or has that changed?

It's communist in the same sense 20th Century Fox is a small canine
predator.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2/5/2024 2:20 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>>> is the Communist Party.
>>>
>>> Or has that changed?
>
> "Every day, Chinese communism becomes less communist and more Chinese."
> -- my asian studies teacher in 1980 or so.
>
>> IIRC, it was J.P. Hogan who wrote that Russia was communist only for six months
>> in 1917, thereafter just another dictatorship.
>
> I'd give it longer than that. At least until 1921 when they got the NEP.
> By the time the NEP was over in '28 or so, Stalin's collectivization was
> the order of the day and one could argue that that was sort of a form of
> communism even if it could not be argued to be effective or beneficial to
> long-term socialism.

OfSF:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it
means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many
different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master — that’s all."

--
Ahasuerus

On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 1:06:26 PM UTC+11, Chris Buckley wrote:
> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>
> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
> is being reported correctly?

When I first heard about this, I was scratching my head to work out why RF Kuang's "Babel" was so offensive that it was made ineligible. I hadn't realised the author had written an earlier alternative history series where a major character is loosely modelled on Mao. Of course the CCP took offense.

-Moriarty

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 20:02:48 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <1832silbotti0mubjb3np8i9d4m2vpkq54@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
>><newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>>
>>https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>>>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>>>>> is being reported correctly?
>>>>
>>>>I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>>>Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>>>>communist country.
>>>>
>>>in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>
>>The real world.
>>
>>Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>>is the Communist Party.
>>
>>Or has that changed?
>
>It's communist in the same sense 20th Century Fox is a small canine
>predator.

So, it hasn't changed then.

And, no, it is communist in the sense that it has only one political
party, the Communist Party.

Which is the only sense that matters, politically.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 06/02/2024 16:43, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 20:02:48 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> In article <1832silbotti0mubjb3np8i9d4m2vpkq54@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
>>> <newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>>>
>>> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>>>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>>>>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>>>>>> is being reported correctly?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>>>> Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>>>>> communist country.
>>>>>
>>>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>>
>>> The real world.
>>>
>>> Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>>> is the Communist Party.
>>>
>>> Or has that changed?
>>
>> It's communist in the same sense 20th Century Fox is a small canine
>> predator.
>
> So, it hasn't changed then.
>
> And, no, it is communist in the sense that it has only one political
> party, the Communist Party.
>
> Which is the only sense that matters, politically.

So Hitler was a communist?

On 7/02/24 08:43, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On 06/02/2024 16:43, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 20:02:48 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>> Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <1832silbotti0mubjb3np8i9d4m2vpkq54@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person  <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
>>>> <newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously!  It sounds quite
>>>>>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their
>>>>>>> Chinese
>>>>>>> content.  Is there confirmation that all of this actually
>>>>>>> occurred and
>>>>>>> is being reported correctly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>>>>> Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon
>>>>>> in a
>>>>>> communist country.
>>>>>>
>>>>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>>>
>>>> The real world.
>>>>
>>>> Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>>>> is the Communist Party.
>>>>
>>>> Or has that changed?
>>>
>>> It's communist in the same sense 20th Century Fox is a small canine
>>> predator.
>>
>> So, it hasn't changed then.
>>
>> And, no, it is communist in the sense that it has only one political
>> party, the Communist Party.
>>
>> Which is the only sense that matters, politically.
>
> So Hitler was a communist?

Of course. He escaped to Palestine and later on worked in a commune.
Netnyahoo is a direct descendant. This has been proved by DNA.
(Don't No Anything.)

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 19:43:41 +0000, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 06/02/2024 16:43, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 20:02:48 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>> Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <1832silbotti0mubjb3np8i9d4m2vpkq54@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
>>>> <newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/24/2024 8:06 PM, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.polygon.com/24049021/hugo-awards-controversy-china-censorship-babel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I haven't seen any discussion of this previously! It sounds quite
>>>>>>> intolerable - books being declared ineligible because of their Chinese
>>>>>>> content. Is there confirmation that all of this actually occurred and
>>>>>>> is being reported correctly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>>>>> Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>>>>>> communist country.
>>>>>>
>>>>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>>>
>>>> The real world.
>>>>
>>>> Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>>>> is the Communist Party.
>>>>
>>>> Or has that changed?
>>>
>>> It's communist in the same sense 20th Century Fox is a small canine
>>> predator.
>>
>> So, it hasn't changed then.
>>
>> And, no, it is communist in the sense that it has only one political
>> party, the Communist Party.
>>
>> Which is the only sense that matters, politically.
>
>So Hitler was a communist?

Sorry, a Socialist party, however National it may be, is not a
Communist Party.

Hitler was what Mussolini could only dream of being, just as Mussolini
is what DeSantis can only dream of being.

Since the whole /point/ of Communism is that the State, all by itself,
without any assistance at all, will eventually wither away, it follows
that there can /never/ be a Communist State in the philosophical
sense, any more than there can ever be an Anarchist State in the
philosophical sense.

Which means that saying mainland China is [a] "Communist" [State] can
/only/ be a political statement, not a philosophical one
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 08:31:00 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 12:04:10 +1100, Mad Hamish
><newsunspammelaws@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
>>>Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
>>>communist country.
>>>
>>in what world is modern china a communist country?
>
>The real world.
>
>Mainland China is communist because the /only/ political party allowed
>is the Communist Party.
>
>Or has that changed?

One major western historian (I'm going from memory here - I think it
was Stephen Kotkin author of the 2/3 part (part 3 covering 1945 -
Stalin's death isn't out yet and was delayed by the pandemic)
biography of Stalin) said that he was visiting China hoping to meet
with top members of the Politiburo and was told that they were meeting
for a multiday private discussion and teaching on Marx and Engels
which apparently they do every 4 or 5 years.

Despite the changes in China in the last 20 years there's no doubt
it's a communist country though a rather different flavor than was
typical of the Soviet Union in its heyday.

So I would completely accept the "what did the Worldcon organizers
EXPECT?" question

On 5 Feb 2024 17:45:44 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 17:26:19 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>>
>>>This one where "communist" is another way of saying "authoritarian".
>>
>>And "Fascist" or "Nazi" are other ways of saying "authoritarian".
>
>It's very confusing. I used to have a job where I would get interviewed
>by security people on an annual basis. They would ask if I had been in
>contact with anyone who held views contrary to American interests and
>I would tell them my grandmother was a fascist and had a picture of the
>Duce hanging on her wall (next to a picture of Jesus and one of John F.
>Kennedy). And EVERY time I would have to explain to them what fascism
>actually was because none of them had any idea.
>--scott

I suspect the powers that be in the Canadian parliament have a much
better idea now than before last September when (in the presence of
Zelenskii no less!) a "Ukrainian veteran" was saluted by the Speaker
of the House of Commons - the guy turned out to be a veteran of a
Ukrainian Nazi SS division who had come to Canada after the war and
was now in his late 80s.

(Needless to say the Canadian parliament had a new speaker in fairly
short order since saluting Nazi veterans is not something that's
acceptable even in 2023)

On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 08:13:31 -0800, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>Since the whole /point/ of Communism is that the State, all by itself,
>without any assistance at all, will eventually wither away, it follows
>that there can /never/ be a Communist State in the philosophical
>sense, any more than there can ever be an Anarchist State in the
>philosophical sense.

Whereas Hitler even if he had achieved his wildest fantasies of
conquest would never have allowed the state to "wither away" - but
then the same could be said of Stalin.

Thus I have no use at all for the type of people who argue Communism
has never been given a fair test since neither Russia or China are /
were Comunist.

By that "logic" we could argue that Naziism should get another try
since Hitler diverged so much from the vision espoused in Mein Kampf.

Yeah sure.....

On Fri, 09 Feb 2024 19:35:58 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On 5 Feb 2024 17:45:44 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 17:26:19 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>> in what world is modern china a communist country?
>>>>
>>>>This one where "communist" is another way of saying "authoritarian".
>>>
>>>And "Fascist" or "Nazi" are other ways of saying "authoritarian".
>>
>>It's very confusing. I used to have a job where I would get interviewed
>>by security people on an annual basis. They would ask if I had been in
>>contact with anyone who held views contrary to American interests and
>>I would tell them my grandmother was a fascist and had a picture of the
>>Duce hanging on her wall (next to a picture of Jesus and one of John F.
>>Kennedy). And EVERY time I would have to explain to them what fascism
>>actually was because none of them had any idea.
>>--scott
>
>I suspect the powers that be in the Canadian parliament have a much
>better idea now than before last September when (in the presence of
>Zelenskii no less!) a "Ukrainian veteran" was saluted by the Speaker
>of the House of Commons - the guy turned out to be a veteran of a
>Ukrainian Nazi SS division who had come to Canada after the war and
>was now in his late 80s.
>
>(Needless to say the Canadian parliament had a new speaker in fairly
>short order since saluting Nazi veterans is not something that's
>acceptable even in 2023)

Not in Canada, perhaps.

For Republicans, I'm not so sure.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Fri, 09 Feb 2024 19:41:04 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Feb 2024 08:13:31 -0800, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Since the whole /point/ of Communism is that the State, all by itself,
>>without any assistance at all, will eventually wither away, it follows
>>that there can /never/ be a Communist State in the philosophical
>>sense, any more than there can ever be an Anarchist State in the
>>philosophical sense.
>
>Whereas Hitler even if he had achieved his wildest fantasies of
>conquest would never have allowed the state to "wither away" - but
>then the same could be said of Stalin.
>
>Thus I have no use at all for the type of people who argue Communism
>has never been given a fair test since neither Russia or China are /
>were Comunist.
>
>By that "logic" we could argue that Naziism should get another try
>since Hitler diverged so much from the vision espoused in Mein Kampf.
>
>Yeah sure.....

When I was much much younger, I read a "Communist" (in quotes because
it was some sort of infighting amongst the Party members) book which
included a critique of Capitalist publishers as being a bunch of
censors and asserted that, in /their/ State, the State would be the
only publisher and so no censorship would exist.

I recognized this as a fantasy. The reality, as I knew even then, was
and is that, in the USA, /anyone/ can acquire a printing press and
publish, if not actual bound books, then certainly pamphlets. The
various publishers can be as censorius as they like, they cannot
(individually or collectively) prevent books from being published if
the money and will to do so is there. Note that there are also "vanity
publishers", who will publish pretty much anything -- for a fee.

Now consider the Internet where, in theory, and (I suspect) for a lot
less money than a printing press and binding machine would cost,
anything you want can be published. Yes, Amazon may remove a book now
and then for content issues (and also spats with vendors), but other
web sites exist or can be created and services like PayPal can be used
to handle payments.

IOW, a wee bit of development along those lines and we will /have/ the
censorship-free publishing environment predicted in the book. Add a
just-in-time printer/binder and even hardcopy books can be provided.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 6:04:21 PM UTC-7, Mad Hamish wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:38:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >I don't know why people are upset, it is just standard communism.
> >Surely they knew that would happen when they located the WorldCon in a
> >communist country.

> in what world is modern china a communist country?

The People's Republic of China is ruled by the Communist Party of China.

Also, it is a totalitarian dictatorship; for example, churches aren't allowed to exist
except as state-run organizations.

Whether or not their Marxism or Maoism is as pure as it once was is really not
a concern to anyone but the Party itself.

John Savard