Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle

Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.

https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/

This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
becomes Reactor.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
>
> Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>
> This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
> becomes Reactor.

Zero for five here.

Miles Vorkosigan says in the Komarr book, "We have advanced to new and
surprising levels of bafflement.".
https://vorkosigan.fandom.com/wiki/Quotables

Lynn

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
> >
> > Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
> >
> > https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
> >
> > This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
> > becomes Reactor.
> Zero for five here.

The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.

The Sheckley is great if you like Sheckley. I do, many do not.

Somehow I missed everything by Chandler except a couple of decent short
stories.

One could also mention the Reteif novels, in which everyone except Reteif has
been promoted beyond his or her level of competence. Often far beyond.

William Hyde

In article <22635af9-bd1f-4cef-8c17-ad44c5f8260an@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> > Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
>> >
>> > Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
>> >
>> >
>https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>> >
>> > This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
>> > becomes Reactor.
>> Zero for five here.
>
>The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.

It may still be my favourite Powers.

>The Sheckley is great if you like Sheckley. I do, many do not.
>
>Somehow I missed everything by Chandler except a couple of decent short
>stories.

Plus side: lots of new to you material to read.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 11:32:57 AM UTC+11, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <22635af9-bd1f-4cef...@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> > Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
> >> >
> >> > Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
> >> >
> >> >
> >https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
> >> >
> >> > This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
> >> > becomes Reactor.
> >> Zero for five here.
> >
> >The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.
> It may still be my favourite Powers.

It's mine, except when Last Call is.

-Moriarty

In article <22635af9-bd1f-4cef-8c17-ad44c5f8260an@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> > Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
>> >
>> > Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
>> >
>> >
>https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>> >
>> > This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
>> > becomes Reactor.
>> Zero for five here.
>
>The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.
>
>The Sheckley is great if you like Sheckley. I do, many do not.
>
>Somehow I missed everything by Chandler except a couple of decent short
>stories.
>
>One could also mention the Reteif novels, in which everyone except Reteif has
>been promoted beyond his or her level of competence. Often far beyond.
>
>William Hyde
>

It depends on what they are being tested for. I recently ran across, the
new to me, excellent phrase:

"The purpose of a system is what it does" (POSIWID)

Magnan et al are what the system does.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 7:57:14 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <22635af9-bd1f-4cef...@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> > Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
> >> >
> >> > Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
> >> >
> >> >
> >https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
> >> >
> >> > This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
> >> > becomes Reactor.
> >> Zero for five here.
> >
> >The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.
> >
> >The Sheckley is great if you like Sheckley. I do, many do not.
> >
> >Somehow I missed everything by Chandler except a couple of decent short
> >stories.
> >
> >One could also mention the Reteif novels, in which everyone except Reteif has
> >been promoted beyond his or her level of competence. Often far beyond.
> >
> >William Hyde
> >
> It depends on what they are being tested for. I recently ran across, the
> new to me, excellent phrase:
>
> "The purpose of a system is what it does" (POSIWID)
>
> Magnan et al are what the system does.

Even at the start, though, Magnan seems to have a slightly better grasp
on reality than the others. By the late books, he's well ahead of the
average diplomat in this area, doubtless from long exposure to Retief.
Once in a while he even makes a decision without Reteif that does not
turn out to be disastrous.

Of course, there are some other competent people mentioned, or at least some
who see reason in the end. Even one Groaci. But not many.

William Hyde

In article <a5d67900-e5b2-4daa-afff-d32e1e3b4c57n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 7:57:14 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan
><tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <22635af9-bd1f-4cef...@googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> > Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter
>Principle
>> >> >
>> >> > Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>>
>>https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>> >> >
>> >> > This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
>> >> > becomes Reactor.
>> >> Zero for five here.
>> >
>> >The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.
>> >
>> >The Sheckley is great if you like Sheckley. I do, many do not.
>> >
>> >Somehow I missed everything by Chandler except a couple of decent short
>> >stories.
>> >
>> >One could also mention the Reteif novels, in which everyone except
>Reteif has
>> >been promoted beyond his or her level of competence. Often far beyond.
>> >
>> >William Hyde
>> >
>> It depends on what they are being tested for. I recently ran across, the
>> new to me, excellent phrase:
>>
>> "The purpose of a system is what it does" (POSIWID)
>>
>> Magnan et al are what the system does.
>
>Even at the start, though, Magnan seems to have a slightly better grasp
>on reality than the others. By the late books, he's well ahead of the
>average diplomat in this area, doubtless from long exposure to Retief.
>Once in a while he even makes a decision without Reteif that does not
>turn out to be disastrous.

Yes, Laumer seemed to be taking Magnan is a more interesting direction
in the last books, but unfortunately they were so unreadable I
couldn't really follow it.

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:11:12 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

> https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/

From the comments:

“Those who can, do. Those who can’t do, teach. Those who can’t teach
go into administration.”

In practice, those who are very good at doing make terrible teachers.
They can't tell you how to do because they don't know.

"How do I add two numbers?"
"Look at them and write down the sum."

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

In article <h4cuqiltef60t5ucqjltl6v0h7jfkv9i6l@4ax.com>,
Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:11:12 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
> > https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-il
> > lustrate-the-peter-principle/
>
> From the comments:
>
> �Those who can, do. Those who can�t do, teach. Those who can�t teach
> go into administration.�
>
>
> In practice, those who are very good at doing make terrible teachers.
> They can't tell you how to do because they don't know.
>
> "How do I add two numbers?"
> "Look at them and write down the sum."

You teach them the addition tables. I can't remember which elementary
school grade introduced them,

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in
news:h4cuqiltef60t5ucqjltl6v0h7jfkv9i6l@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:11:12 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com
> (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-b
>> ooks-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>
> From the comments:
>
> �Those who can, do. Those who can�t do, teach. Those who can�t
> teach go into administration.�
>
>
> In practice, those who are very good at doing make terrible
> teachers. They can't tell you how to do because they don't know.
>

I'd say instead that teaching is a skill in itself and may not be
strongly related to skill in what you're trying to teach.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2024, Michael Ikeda wrote:

> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in
> news:h4cuqiltef60t5ucqjltl6v0h7jfkv9i6l@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:11:12 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com
>> (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-b
>>> ooks-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>>
>> From the comments:
>>
>> ?Those who can, do. Those who can?t do, teach. Those who can?t
>> teach go into administration.?
>>
>>
>> In practice, those who are very good at doing make terrible
>> teachers. They can't tell you how to do because they don't know.
>>
>
> I'd say instead that teaching is a skill in itself and may not be
> strongly related to skill in what you're trying to teach.

This is the way!

Adding to that a pinch of temperament, empathy and patience, but those
things can be improved with training.

Best regards,
Daniel

On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 2:22:46 PM UTC+11, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:11:12 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
> > https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>
> From the comments:
>
> “Those who can, do. Those who can’t do, teach. Those who can’t teach
> go into administration.”
>
>
> In practice, those who are very good at doing make terrible teachers.
> They can't tell you how to do because they don't know.
>
> "How do I add two numbers?"
> "Look at them and write down the sum."
>
Brad Gilbert made a pretty big change in how a few tennis players went, he was an ex-top 10 player

On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:04:56 GMT, Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com>
wrote:

> I'd say instead that teaching is a skill in itself and may not be
> strongly related to skill in what you're trying to teach.

I'm currently teaching knitting. My answer to nearly every question
is "Hang on while I watch myself doing it."

I tried to learn library science once. My teacher was a world-famous
librarian. His idea of teaching me to do research was to say "go out
and do research."

If he had been teaching swimming, he would have thrown me in at the
deep end and then ridiculed me for drowning.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

On 18/01/2024 00:57, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <22635af9-bd1f-4cef-8c17-ad44c5f8260an@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
>>>>
>>>> Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
>>>>
>>>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>>>>
>>>> This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
>>>> becomes Reactor.
>>> Zero for five here.
>>
>> The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.
>>
>> The Sheckley is great if you like Sheckley. I do, many do not.
>>
>> Somehow I missed everything by Chandler except a couple of decent short
>> stories.
>>
>> One could also mention the Reteif novels, in which everyone except Reteif has
>> been promoted beyond his or her level of competence. Often far beyond.
>>
>> William Hyde
>>
>
> It depends on what they are being tested for. I recently ran across, the
> new to me, excellent phrase:
>
> "The purpose of a system is what it does" (POSIWID)
>
> Magnan et al are what the system does.

Apparently, POSIWID arises from what's
called "cybernetics", which apparently
isn't about the threat of cyborgs but
is a study of "circular causal systems".
And if POSIWID is all there is to
cybernetics, then the Wikipedia page
is slightly too long.

Apparently, referring to what the handbook
says the thing is /supposed/ to do is
forbidden to cyberneticists. So does
POSIEID replace RTFM?

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 13:46:17 +0000, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 18/01/2024 00:57, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <22635af9-bd1f-4cef-8c17-ad44c5f8260an@googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:14:41?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 1/17/2024 11:11 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> Incompetence Is Inevitable: Five Books That Illustrate the Peter Principle
>>>>>
>>>>> Five stories in which competence is tested by going beyond its limits.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> https://www.tor.com/2024/01/17/incompetence-is-inevitable-five-books-that-illustrate-the-peter-principle/
>>>>>
>>>>> This is among the last of my tor dot com posts. Next week, that tag
>>>>> becomes Reactor.
>>>> Zero for five here.
>>>
>>> The Powers is his breakthrough novel. I must have read it five times.
>>>
>>> The Sheckley is great if you like Sheckley. I do, many do not.
>>>
>>> Somehow I missed everything by Chandler except a couple of decent short
>>> stories.
>>>
>>> One could also mention the Reteif novels, in which everyone except Reteif has
>>> been promoted beyond his or her level of competence. Often far beyond.
>>>
>>> William Hyde
>>>
>>
>> It depends on what they are being tested for. I recently ran across, the
>> new to me, excellent phrase:
>>
>> "The purpose of a system is what it does" (POSIWID)
>>
>> Magnan et al are what the system does.
>
>Apparently, POSIWID arises from what's
>called "cybernetics", which apparently
>isn't about the threat of cyborgs but
>is a study of "circular causal systems".
>And if POSIWID is all there is to
>cybernetics, then the Wikipedia page
>is slightly too long.
>
>Apparently, referring to what the handbook
>says the thing is /supposed/ to do is
>forbidden to cyberneticists. So does
>POSIEID replace RTFM?

Perhaps POSIEID is more a counsel of dispair concerning the gap
between what the manual /says/ and what the system /does/.

This discrepancy, of course, the same as that pointed to by
The Map is not the Terrain
which is something that tends to be overlooked.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 02/02/2024 13:46, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 00:57, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
I recently ran across, the
>> new to me, excellent phrase:
>>
>>     "The purpose of a system is what it does" (POSIWID)
>>
>> Magnan et al are what the system does.
>
> Apparently, POSIWID arises from what's
> called "cybernetics", which apparently
> isn't about the threat of cyborgs but
> is a study of "circular causal systems".
> And if POSIWID is all there is to
> cybernetics, then the Wikipedia page
> is slightly too long.
>
> Apparently, referring to what the handbook
> says the thing is /supposed/ to do is
> forbidden to cyberneticists.  So does
> POSIEID replace RTFM?

To be clear: that was meant to say
"POSIWID" again. Please don't struggle
to work out what "POSIEID" is!

Apparently the purpose of Thunderbird
is not what I believed it to be -
to allow me to communicate my thoughts.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:04:56 GMT, Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com>
wrote:

>I'd say instead that teaching is a skill in itself and may not be
>strongly related to skill in what you're trying to teach.

That was certainly my experience - after university I did the
teacher's ed program and got my certificate but I simply wasn't
organized enough to be a good teacher. The paperwork REALLY ground me
down and by the end of my one and only year of teaching I had already
done my GMAT and was planning for business school where I narrowly
missed the Dean's list and met my future wife.

(The joke was I got both my MBA and an MRS)