One thing I have noticed recently in "indie" SF and fantasy books
is a use of literary "person" I don't recall in fiction from previous
years.

In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.

My conjecture is that without editorial guidelines (or call it interference
if you like) newer authors feel more free to jump around.

Has anyone else noticed this, or is it something that has always been
around and I am just picking up on it now for some reason?

If it is a newish thing, is it happening in other genres (mystery, romance
etc) or largely in SF? (I will note that in romancey SF, I have also noticed
dual first person narratives of late).

I find I don't mind it, btw.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
>the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
>viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.

Heinlein did that occasionally. Also he wrote a book using first person,
but with the narrator changing every chapter.

>My conjecture is that without editorial guidelines (or call it interference
>if you like) newer authors feel more free to jump around.

Blame it on all those New Wave kids.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 24/03/2024 10.48, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
>> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
>> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>
> Heinlein did that occasionally. Also he wrote a book using first person,
> but with the narrator changing every chapter.

And, since all four of them had the same "voice", I found myself regularly
flipping back to the first page of the chapter to figure out who was
speaking.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19

Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 24/03/2024 10.48, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
>>> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
>>> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>>
>> Heinlein did that occasionally. Also he wrote a book using first person,
>> but with the narrator changing every chapter.
>
>And, since all four of them had the same "voice", I found myself regularly
>flipping back to the first page of the chapter to figure out who was
>speaking.

Yes, I had a similar experience. He did not do it as well as he might have.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 3/23/24 11:47 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> One thing I have noticed recently in "indie" SF and fantasy books
> is a use of literary "person" I don't recall in fiction from previous
> years.
>
> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>
> My conjecture is that without editorial guidelines (or call it interference
> if you like) newer authors feel more free to jump around.
>
> Has anyone else noticed this, or is it something that has always been
> around and I am just picking up on it now for some reason?
>
> If it is a newish thing, is it happening in other genres (mystery, romance
> etc) or largely in SF? (I will note that in romancey SF, I have also noticed
> dual first person narratives of late).
>
> I find I don't mind it, btw.

I'm reasonably sure that this happens in some of the later Kate Daniels
books, but I didn't grab any to verify it.

I also don't mind it, provided it's not confusing or distracting.
- Tony

On 3/23/2024 11:47 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> One thing I have noticed recently in "indie" SF and fantasy books
> is a use of literary "person" I don't recall in fiction from previous
> years.
>
> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not. [snip]

This is reasonably common in online fanfiction and other types of online
fiction. Perhaps it's spreading to other venues now that the Royal
Road-Amazon Express is a major force in indie publishing.

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 12:16:51 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 24/03/2024 10.48, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
>>> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
>>> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>>
>> Heinlein did that occasionally. Also he wrote a book using first person,
>> but with the narrator changing every chapter.
>
>And, since all four of them had the same "voice", I found myself regularly
>flipping back to the first page of the chapter to figure out who was
>speaking.

I got the large format illustrated version of "Number of the Beast"
which helpfully (and often necessarily) had the current POV character
identified at the top of each page.

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

On 25/03/2024 02.15, Jerry Brown wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 12:16:51 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2024 10.48, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>>> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
>>>> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
>>>> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>>>
>>> Heinlein did that occasionally. Also he wrote a book using first person,
>>> but with the narrator changing every chapter.
>>
>> And, since all four of them had the same "voice", I found myself regularly
>> flipping back to the first page of the chapter to figure out who was
>> speaking.
>
> I got the large format illustrated version of "Number of the Beast"
> which helpfully (and often necessarily) had the current POV character
> identified at the top of each page.

I just pulled my MMPB off the shelf, and saw that it does this on the
odd-numbered pages. Apparently, I was looking back to find out the title
of the chapter, although I can't think of why.

--
Michael F. Stemper
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.

On 24/03/2024 03:47, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> One thing I have noticed recently in "indie" SF and fantasy books
> is a use of literary "person" I don't recall in fiction from previous
> years.
>
> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>
> My conjecture is that without editorial guidelines (or call it interference
> if you like) newer authors feel more free to jump around.
>
> Has anyone else noticed this, or is it something that has always been
> around and I am just picking up on it now for some reason?
>
> If it is a newish thing, is it happening in other genres (mystery, romance
> etc) or largely in SF? (I will note that in romancey SF, I have also noticed
> dual first person narratives of late).
>
> I find I don't mind it, btw.

I don't know if it's a new thing, or, as I
think you're suggesting, a new lack of an editor
slapping a new writer into using first-person
or third-person but to stick to one.

Joe Haldeman did it all over _Buying Time_ (1989)
also titled _The Long Habit of Living_.
And _Ghosts from the Past_ (2000) by Graeme Grant...
oh, I Think it's all third person, it just switches
point of view a lot. And sometimes italics.
And some of it is stream-of-conscious-y.
It's a tie-in to a remake of _Randall and
Hopkirk Deceased_, a private detective fantasy
series in which Marry Hopkirk is killed and comes
back as a ghost, and I read it quite recently.

In article <utsi6e$190l6$1@dont-email.me>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 24/03/2024 03:47, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> One thing I have noticed recently in "indie" SF and fantasy books
>> is a use of literary "person" I don't recall in fiction from previous
>> years.
>>
>> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
>> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
>> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>>
>> My conjecture is that without editorial guidelines (or call it interference
>> if you like) newer authors feel more free to jump around.
>>
>> Has anyone else noticed this, or is it something that has always been
>> around and I am just picking up on it now for some reason?
>>
>> If it is a newish thing, is it happening in other genres (mystery, romance
>> etc) or largely in SF? (I will note that in romancey SF, I have also noticed
>> dual first person narratives of late).
>>
>> I find I don't mind it, btw.
>
>I don't know if it's a new thing, or, as I
>think you're suggesting, a new lack of an editor
>slapping a new writer into using first-person
>or third-person but to stick to one.

Yeah, the slapping thing is my theory.
>
>Joe Haldeman did it all over _Buying Time_ (1989)
>also titled _The Long Habit of Living_.
>And _Ghosts from the Past_ (2000) by Graeme Grant...
>oh, I Think it's all third person, it just switches
>point of view a lot. And sometimes italics.
>And some of it is stream-of-conscious-y.
>It's a tie-in to a remake of _Randall and
>Hopkirk Deceased_, a private detective fantasy
>series in which Marry Hopkirk is killed and comes
>back as a ghost, and I read it quite recently.

Certainly not saying it hasn't been done, just that
I'm noticing it enough recently that it caught
my attention.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 25/03/2024 02.15, Jerry Brown wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 12:16:51 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
>> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2024 10.48, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>>>> In particular, I have noticed books which are largely written in
>>>>> the first person, but which have cutaways to various third person
>>>>> viewpoints, perhaps omniscient, perhaps not.
>>>>
>>>> Heinlein did that occasionally. Also he wrote a book using first person,
>>>> but with the narrator changing every chapter.
>>>
>>> And, since all four of them had the same "voice", I found myself regularly
>>> flipping back to the first page of the chapter to figure out who was
>>> speaking.
>>
>> I got the large format illustrated version of "Number of the Beast"
>> which helpfully (and often necessarily) had the current POV character
>> identified at the top of each page.
>
>I just pulled my MMPB off the shelf, and saw that it does this on the
>odd-numbered pages. Apparently, I was looking back to find out the title
>of the chapter, although I can't think of why.

IIRC, I just gave up on it. Either that, or (for some reason) I had no
trouble knowing who it was.

Or, of course, I just didn't notice the switches between narrators.
This was not my favorite book. I liked the alternate version better.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 26/03/2024 10.51, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2024 02.15, Jerry Brown wrote:

>>> I got the large format illustrated version of "Number of the Beast"
>>> which helpfully (and often necessarily) had the current POV character
>>> identified at the top of each page.
>>
>> I just pulled my MMPB off the shelf, and saw that it does this on the
>> odd-numbered pages. Apparently, I was looking back to find out the title
>> of the chapter, although I can't think of why.
>
> IIRC, I just gave up on it. Either that, or (for some reason) I had no
> trouble knowing who it was.
>
> Or, of course, I just didn't notice the switches between narrators.
> This was not my favorite book. I liked the alternate version better.

The alternative version being _The Pursuit of the Pankera_? Ted Nolan's
description of it in a different thread makes it sound worth looking into.

As far as TNotB not being a favorite, my first reading of it put me
off of Heinlein for a decade. (Since then, it's become a comfort read,
but please don't tell anybody.)

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 08:48:44 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 26/03/2024 10.51, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
>> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2024 02.15, Jerry Brown wrote:
>
>>>> I got the large format illustrated version of "Number of the Beast"
>>>> which helpfully (and often necessarily) had the current POV character
>>>> identified at the top of each page.
>>>
>>> I just pulled my MMPB off the shelf, and saw that it does this on the
>>> odd-numbered pages. Apparently, I was looking back to find out the title
>>> of the chapter, although I can't think of why.
>>
>> IIRC, I just gave up on it. Either that, or (for some reason) I had no
>> trouble knowing who it was.
>>
>> Or, of course, I just didn't notice the switches between narrators.
>> This was not my favorite book. I liked the alternate version better.
>
>The alternative version being _The Pursuit of the Pankera_? Ted Nolan's
>description of it in a different thread makes it sound worth looking into.

Indeed. The Kindle edition, IIRC, marked the /exact/ point at which
the two start to diverge so, if it seems overly familiar at first,
just keep reading.

>As far as TNotB not being a favorite, my first reading of it put me
>off of Heinlein for a decade. (Since then, it's become a comfort read,
>but please don't tell anybody.)
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"