Just watching All Creatures Great and Small on Drama (FreeView 20).

It's original 4:3 material, actually being broadcast as such for once (I
know as I have to turn off subtitles on my old set otherwise it comes
out full width).

During the opening credits, for example where it gives the cast (such as

LYNDA
BELLINGHAM
as
Helen

), and also the name of the author of the episode ("by ...") and some
other such, the bottom line is half off the bottom of the screen.

I'm puzzled how this has happened: I presume by now the original - at
least, as used by a station like Drama - exists as 4:3 video (almost
certainly digitised), rather than a mix of film and video as it would
have been produced originally, so no conversion error.

I'm watching on an LCD screen, so no overscan; if anything, I'd have
expected the original to have significant underscan, so that the credits
were visible on the mostly CRTs of the day (1990), which mostly did have
overscan.

(I noticed it on yesterday's episode too, so it's probably on them all
[they're at 16:10 weekdays]. There's no _obvious_ problem with the rest
of the episode - though looking at it now, characters' heads _are_
rather close to the top of the picture.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Vera (I came, I saw, we'll meet again) - Mik from S+AS Limited
(mik@saslimited.demon.co.uk), 1998

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> Just watching All Creatures Great and Small on Drama (FreeView 20).
> It's original 4:3 material, actually being broadcast as such for once

On satellite it seems to be 4:3 pillarboxed within 16:9 (720x576)

In message <l0qe5jFbr5U1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 17 Jan 2024
16:39:14, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> Just watching All Creatures Great and Small on Drama (FreeView 20).
>> It's original 4:3 material, actually being broadcast as such for once
>
>On satellite it seems to be 4:3 pillarboxed within 16:9 (720x576)
>
>
Interesting - you mean they're actually broadcasting the black side
bars. On terrestrial, they're not. I know from how my TV behaves - but
also, the DOG is within the 4:3 (when other channels broadcast
pillarboxed material, the DOG is usually within the black bit, or
partially so).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... behaving morally does not require religious adherence. - The Right Rev
Nigel McCulloch\Bishop of Manchester (Radio Times, 24-30 September 2011

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> Andy Burns writes
>
>> On satellite it seems to be 4:3 pillarboxed within 16:9 (720x576)
>
> Interesting - you mean they're actually broadcasting the black side
> bars.

and nothing looks cropped or stretched

> On terrestrial, they're not. I know from how my TV behaves - but
> also, the DOG is within the 4:3 (when other channels broadcast
> pillarboxed material, the DOG is usually within the black bit, or
> partially so).

yes DOG within the 4:3 picture area, an not especially near the top/left
of it.

In message <l0qhluFbr5U3@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 17 Jan 2024
17:39:10, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns writes
>>
>>> On satellite it seems to be 4:3 pillarboxed within 16:9 (720x576)
>>
>> Interesting - you mean they're actually broadcasting the black side
>>bars.
>
>and nothing looks cropped or stretched
>
>> On terrestrial, they're not. I know from how my TV behaves - but
>>also, the DOG is within the 4:3 (when other channels broadcast
>>pillarboxed material, the DOG is usually within the black bit, or
>>partially so).
>
>yes DOG within the 4:3 picture area, an not especially near the
>top/left of it.
>
Do you _have_ a FreeView feed? They're still broadcasting true 4:3 on
that (though would have to wait to the opening of tomorrow's ACG&S to
see the credit loss I was asking about).

On the whole, I'm pleased to see the 4:3 broadcast: it's using a flag
for what it was intended for, rather than (as with many aspects of many
standards) sticking it in one position and leaving it there. (It's also
using the bandwidth to its optimum for the material - i. e. the maximum
horizontal resolution available - though black bars don't take much in
the digital world.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

By the very definition of "news," we hear very little about the dominant
threats to our lives, and the most about the rarest, including terror.
"LibertyMcG" alias Brian P. McGlinchey, 2013-7-23

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> Do you _have_ a FreeView feed?

No aerial at moment :-(

> They're still broadcasting true 4:3 on
> that (though would have to wait to the opening of tomorrow's ACG&S to
> see the credit loss I was asking about).

I do have a replacement aerial lurking somewhere, could probably cobble
it up indoors to the PC with the tuner card.

> On the whole, I'm pleased to see the 4:3 broadcast: it's using a flag
> for what it was intended for,

Yes, obviously the satellite method wastes some bandwidth (but probably
not much) on black bars.

Andy Burns wrote:

> I do have a replacement aerial lurking somewhere, could probably cobble
> it up indoors to the PC with the tuner card.

Well, that seems to have been a success.
Unfortunately LotSW isn't in 4:3

In message <l0qpcqF3iq6U1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 17 Jan 2024
19:50:49, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I do have a replacement aerial lurking somewhere, could probably
>>cobble it up indoors to the PC with the tuner card.
>
>Well, that seems to have been a success.
>Unfortunately LotSW isn't in 4:3
>
If you're bothered, ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today
(Thursday), so you'd see what I mean about the opening credits.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I was never drawn to sport, to which I attribute my long life.
- Barry Humphries, RT 2016/1/9-15

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see what
> I mean about the opening credits.

I'll try to remember!

"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:l0qkb5F27b5U2@mid.individual.net...
> J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> On the whole, I'm pleased to see the 4:3 broadcast: it's using a flag for
>> what it was intended for,
>
> Yes, obviously the satellite method wastes some bandwidth (but probably
> not much) on black bars.

It's not so much wasting bandwidth that is the problem with
4:3-picture-inside-a-16:9-frame. The real problem is the reduction in
horizontal resolution, because only the centre 544 pixels contain picture,
instead of the full 720 or 704 pixels that you'd get with true 4:3.

In my experience, ITV and the repeats channels such as Drama are better at
alternating between 4:3 no-widescreen-flag and 16:9-with-widescreen-flag
(even flipping in and out at every ad break). It is BBC channels that stick
everything in a 16:9 frame.

If Drama is showing ACGAS as 4:3 embedded in 16:9, then the picture
resolution will be utterly dire. It's only 544 pixels wide anyway, and if
part of this is then dedicated to black bars, the picture will be only about
400 pixels wide :-( Some channels are 720 on satellite and 544 on Freeview,
but I think (I may be wrong) Drama is 544 on both platforms.

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:0TxjGfu7TIqlFwY3@255soft.uk...
> If you're bothered, ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday),
> so you'd see what I mean about the opening credits.

I've set ACGAS to record on both satellite and terrestrial, so I'll see how
they compare.

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:HmF$Lqnn9$plFw0f@255soft.uk...
> I'm puzzled how this has happened: I presume by now the original - at
> least, as used by a station like Drama - exists as 4:3 video (almost
> certainly digitised), rather than a mix of film and video as it would have
> been produced originally, so no conversion error.

Looks as if by today's episode "A Cat in Hull's Chance", episode 7.8, it's
all on video - including outdoor scenes. Vibrant (maybe *too* vibrant!)
colours, PAL artefacts, bleached-out highlights on skies. Different to
muddy, grainy, low-saturation 16mm film which they used for exteriors on
earlier episodes.

I know that film would have PAL cross-colour just the same as video, but
maybe the detail on the film isn't fine enough to trigger cross-colour.

On the uktvplay.co.uk web site, the picture looks to be the full area, with
no captions being chopped off. I'll post a still from the web version,
together with corresponding ones from sat and terr, when the episode has
been broadcast this afternoon.

(Small claim to fame: There's an early episode about sheep suffering from
mineral deficiency as they were giving birth on a snowy hillside, and that
was filmed in the tiny hamlet where my parents have a holiday cottage. The
local farmer happened to have flock of the right breed of sheep that were at
the right stage of pregnancy, so her sheep were used. In the opening title
scene you can *almost* see our cottage, and in later scenes there's a view
of the village. Apparently the filming lorries caused chaos in the village,
getting bogged down on the village green, and getting stuck on one of the
steep hills leading in/out of the village, but the locals said that the
actors were very approachable and apologised on behalf of everyone.)

Andy Burns wrote:

> J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see
>> what I mean about the opening credits.
>
> I'll try to remember!

Confirm the
terrestrial version is 544x576 4:3

but nothing looks cropped to me, maybe John's 4:3 TV isn't as well
behaved as he thinks?

I did try to record both the satellite and terrestrial versions at the
same time for comparison, but TVHeadend's scheduler decided thgat was a
stupid idea.

NY wrote:

> I've set ACGAS to record on both satellite and terrestrial, so I'll see
> how they compare.

did the scheduler prevent yours from recording both? mine did ...

NY wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> obviously the satellite method wastes some bandwidth (but
>> probably not much) on black bars.
>
> It's not so much wasting bandwidth that is the problem with
> 4:3-picture-inside-a-16:9-frame. The real problem is the reduction in
> horizontal resolution, because only the centre 544 pixels contain
> picture, instead of the full 720 or 704 pixels that you'd get with true
> 4:3.
Not in this case
DVB-T has 544x576 4:3 with all active pixels
DVB-S has 720x576 16:9 with 4:3 central pillarbox so 544x576b non-black
pixels.
> In my experience, ITV and the repeats channels such as Drama are better
> at alternating between 4:3 no-widescreen-flag and
> 16:9-with-widescreen-flag (even flipping in and out at every ad break).
> It is BBC channels that stick everything in a 16:9 frame.
>
> If Drama is showing ACGAS as 4:3 embedded in 16:9, then the picture
> resolution will be utterly dire. It's only 544 pixels wide anyway, and
> if part of this is then dedicated to black bars, the picture will be
> only about 400 pixels wide :-(  Some channels are 720 on satellite and
> 544 on Freeview, but I think (I may be wrong) Drama is 544 on both
> platforms.
not the case ... see above.

"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:l0t1dvFi58aU2@mid.individual.net...
> NY wrote:
>
>> I've set ACGAS to record on both satellite and terrestrial, so I'll see
>> how they compare.
>
> did the scheduler prevent yours from recording both? mine did ...

Aha! I've created separate channels, one which uses the satellite service
and one which uses the terrestrial service. I can then schedule recordings
separately from their different entries in the global EPG that TVHeadend
uses.

I use this sometimes to force a recording from one platform or the other
when there are two overlapping recordings, because satellite tends to have
fewer glitches than terrestrial, especially for COM4 which contains Drama,
so I schedule the one that I want to keep on sat and the time-shifting
"disposable" recording on terrestrial.

"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:l0t1ceFi58aU1@mid.individual.net...
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>
>>> ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see what
>>> I mean about the opening credits.
>>
>> I'll try to remember!
>
> Confirm the
> terrestrial version is 544x576 4:3
>
> but nothing looks cropped to me, maybe John's 4:3 TV isn't as well behaved
> as he thinks?
>
> I did try to record both the satellite and terrestrial versions at the
> same time for comparison, but TVHeadend's scheduler decided thgat was a
> stupid idea.

Here are my captures - I managed to persuade my TVHeadend to record from
each

https://i.postimg.cc/dtcBYvmC/Sat.png (transmitted as 720x576 video, 4:3 in
16:9 frame)

https://i.postimg.cc/YqNx2Vbs/Terr.png (transmitted as 544x576)

https://i.postimg.cc/TP0Sy10B/Web.png (note that some of the frame is hidden
behind a caption that uktvplay,co.uk displays)

All seem to show the same area of picture.

"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:l0t1l0Fi58aU3@mid.individual.net...
> NY wrote:
>> If Drama is showing ACGAS as 4:3 embedded in 16:9, then the picture
>> resolution will be utterly dire. It's only 544 pixels wide anyway, and if
>> part of this is then dedicated to black bars, the picture will be only
>> about 400 pixels wide :-( Some channels are 720 on satellite and 544 on
>> Freeview, but I think (I may be wrong) Drama is 544 on both platforms.
>
> Not in this case
>
> DVB-T has 544x576 4:3 with all active pixels
>
> DVB-S has 720x576 16:9 with 4:3 central pillarbox so 544x576b non-black
pixels.

Yeah, there's an exception to every rule! I noticed that. I'm not sure why
satellite doesn't use the full 720 pixels, given that it has the bandwidth
within the multiplex to do so. OK, 544 plus black bars will be slightly
lower bandwidth than 720.

On 18/01/2024 16:28, NY wrote:

> https://i.postimg.cc/dtcBYvmC/Sat.png (transmitted as 720x576 video, 4:3
> in 16:9 frame)

To clarify: this means the picture part of the frame was only 544x576.

NY wrote:

> Here are my captures - I managed to persuade my TVHeadend to record from
> each
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/dtcBYvmC/Sat.png (transmitted as 720x576 video, 4:3
> in 16:9 frame)
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/YqNx2Vbs/Terr.png (transmitted as 544x576)
>
> All seem to show the same area of picture.

the sat and terr seem identical, but the web has more of his hand and
the paper he's holding in it ...

NY wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> did the scheduler prevent yours from recording both? mine did ...
>
> Aha! I've created separate channels, one which uses the satellite
> service and one which uses the terrestrial service.

my terrestrial Drama service is channel20, the satellite one is
channel0, it let me cue up separate recordings for them both, but only
one was made.

In message <uobjj4$2llqg$2@dont-email.me> at Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:28:39,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> writes
>"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
>news:l0t1ceFi58aU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>>
>>>> ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see
>>>>what I mean about the opening credits.
>>>
>>> I'll try to remember!
>>
>> Confirm the
>> terrestrial version is 544x576 4:3
>>
>> but nothing looks cropped to me, maybe John's 4:3 TV isn't as well
>>behaved as he thinks?

That is indeed possible. Panasonic TX-L22X20B. According to the spec.s
page in the back of the manual, it's 1,366 × 768 (which I'd forgotten,
as it only has a T1 tuner).

The credits were only _slightly_ cropped today - for example on
"Siegfried" it was only the tail of the G, or another credit that had LL
in it, it was only about the horizontal lines of the Ls, with the serif
visible.
[]
>Here are my captures - I managed to persuade my TVHeadend to record
>from each
>
>https://i.postimg.cc/dtcBYvmC/Sat.png (transmitted as 720x576 video,
>4:3 in 16:9 frame)
>
>https://i.postimg.cc/YqNx2Vbs/Terr.png (transmitted as 544x576)
>
>https://i.postimg.cc/TP0Sy10B/Web.png (note that some of the frame is
>hidden behind a caption that uktvplay,co.uk displays)
>
>All seem to show the same area of picture.

As another has said, the web one seems to have a bit more.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

He's incorrigibly naughty, as only a senior citizen can be.
- David Hepworth (on Barry Humphries), RT 2020/2/1-7

In message <l0t1l0Fi58aU3@mid.individual.net> at Thu, 18 Jan 2024
16:24:00, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>NY wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>> obviously the satellite method wastes some bandwidth (but probably
>>>not much) on black bars.
>> It's not so much wasting bandwidth that is the problem with
>>4:3-picture-inside-a-16:9-frame. The real problem is the reduction in
>>horizontal resolution, because only the centre 544 pixels contain
>>picture, instead of the full 720 or 704 pixels that you'd get with
>>true 4:3.
>
>Not in this case
>
>DVB-T has 544x576 4:3 with all active pixels
>
>DVB-S has 720x576 16:9 with 4:3 central pillarbox so 544x576b non-black
>pixels.
>
>> In my experience, ITV and the repeats channels such as Drama are
>>better at alternating between 4:3 no-widescreen-flag and
>>16:9-with-widescreen-flag (even flipping in and out at every ad
>>break). It is BBC channels that stick everything in a 16:9 frame.

Or, worse, especially in the case of '60s/70s/80s music material on
BBC4, crop the top and bottom of the 4:3 frame to give a shortscreen
result that fills the width. (Plenty of examples on YouTube.)

>> If Drama is showing ACGAS as 4:3 embedded in 16:9, then the picture
>>resolution will be utterly dire. It's only 544 pixels wide anyway, and
>>if part of this is then dedicated to black bars, the picture will be
>>only about 400 pixels wide :-(  Some channels are 720 on satellite and
>>544 on Freeview, but I think (I may be wrong) Drama is 544 on both platforms.
>
>not the case ... see above.
>
No, they do seem to be using the flag properly, for quite a few such
prog.s.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

He's incorrigibly naughty, as only a senior citizen can be.
- David Hepworth (on Barry Humphries), RT 2020/2/1-7

In message <uoatqa$2hvo8$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 18 Jan 2024 10:16:51,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> writes
>"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
>news:HmF$Lqnn9$plFw0f@255soft.uk...
>> I'm puzzled how this has happened: I presume by now the original - at
>>least, as used by a station like Drama - exists as 4:3 video (almost
>>certainly digitised), rather than a mix of film and video as it would
>>have been produced originally, so no conversion error.
>
>Looks as if by today's episode "A Cat in Hull's Chance", episode 7.8,
>it's all on video - including outdoor scenes. Vibrant (maybe *too*
>vibrant!) colours, PAL artefacts, bleached-out highlights on skies.
>Different to muddy, grainy, low-saturation 16mm film which they used
>for exteriors on earlier episodes.

Well, it's quite late/recent - yesterday's (so presumably today's, I
didn't look) was MCMXC, i. e. 1990; I'd forgotten they carried on making
it that long, given I remember it being on in the '70s when I was at
school. (I remember the chaplain hoping that more "creatures great and
small" would attend his evensong [which was voluntary] rather than watch
it!)
>
>I know that film would have PAL cross-colour just the same as video,
>but maybe the detail on the film isn't fine enough to trigger
>cross-colour.
>
>On the uktvplay.co.uk web site, the picture looks to be the full area,
>with no captions being chopped off. I'll post a still from the web
>version, together with corresponding ones from sat and terr, when the
>episode has been broadcast this afternoon.
>
Thanks for doing that.
>
>(Small claim to fame: There's an early episode about sheep suffering
>from mineral deficiency as they were giving birth on a snowy hillside,
>and that was filmed in the tiny hamlet where my parents have a holiday
>cottage. The local farmer happened to have flock of the right breed of
>sheep that were at the right stage of pregnancy, so her sheep were
>used. In the opening title scene you can *almost* see our cottage, and
>in later scenes there's a view of the village. Apparently the filming
>lorries caused chaos in the village, getting bogged down on the village
>green, and getting stuck on one of the steep hills leading in/out of
>the village, but the locals said that the actors were very approachable
>and apologised on behalf of everyone.)

I was at school in Barnard Castle (yes, the place now famous for its
opticians; it's actually a town, not just a castle ruin), so knew
several of the locations, as they weren't far away (Egglestone Abbey,
for example).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

He's incorrigibly naughty, as only a senior citizen can be.
- David Hepworth (on Barry Humphries), RT 2020/2/1-7

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> The credits were only slightly cropped today - for example on
> "Siegfried" it was only the tail of the G

<http://andyburns.uk/misc/acgas.jpg>