In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>Max Demian wrote:
>
>>On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>
>>I do.
>
>Because?
>
>Chris

People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I love listening to music that make my eyes water.
- "Super8rescue" 2022

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>> Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>
>>> I do.
>>
>> Because?
>>
>> Chris
>
> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>
> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Because?

>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>
>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>
> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
> everyone is aware of the limitations.

I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

--
Max Demian

On 13/02/2024 16:32, Max Demian wrote:
> On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> Because?
>
>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>
>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>
>> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
>> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>> everyone is aware of the limitations.
>
> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
> required.
>
The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel
something in the right direction towards Pluto

On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
> everyone is aware of the limitations.

The ones who are not aware probably do not bother setting their watches
/ clocks often anyway.

Mark Carver wrote:

> Max Demian wrote:
>
>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
>> required.
>
> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1
second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...

On 13/02/2024 17:21, Andy Burns wrote:
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches
>>> as required.
>>
>> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
>
> Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1
> second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...

Mobile phones take their time reference from the network servers, which
in turn use either the GPS or NPL references.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article <uqg39f$258qv$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> scribeth thus
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Because?
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>
>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>
>The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
>wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>everyone is aware of the limitations.
>

But near enough for Joe Publick and his missus!..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

In message <uqg39f$258qv$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:53:19,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Because?
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>
>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>
>The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
>wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>everyone is aware of the limitations.
>
That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not
broadcast them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve
expense.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22

Was it not the Muppets who had the pips as pig noised and a pig reading the
news, um all about pigs followed by pigs in space? I'm going back a long way
here.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:iI9D0j8UQ3ylFwLR@255soft.uk...
> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>
>>>I do.
>>
>>Because?
>>
>>Chris
>
> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>
> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake of
> it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> I love listening to music that make my eyes water.
> - "Super8rescue" 2022

Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:uqg5jf$25iu5$1@dont-email.me...
> On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> Because?
>
>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>
>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>
>> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
>> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>> everyone is aware of the limitations.
>
> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
> required.
>
> --
> Max Demian
>

Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as
modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the
right place nowadays.

I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to
get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:l31l0rF6dklU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 13/02/2024 16:32, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
>>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because?
>>
>>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>>
>>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>>
>>> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
>>> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>>> everyone is aware of the limitations.
>>
>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
>> required.
>>
> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
>
> It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel something
> in the right direction towards Pluto

The internet is far worse, add that over a sat link and it can be more than
a minute. As I said elsewhere in this thread. it would need some clever
calculation for it to appear at the same time everywhere, and then it would
crash into the program.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:W08Orr9T27ylFwOs@255soft.uk...
> In message <uqg39f$258qv$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:53:19,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes
>>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> Because?
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>
>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>
>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>
>>The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
>>wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>>everyone is aware of the limitations.
>>
> That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not broadcast
> them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve expense.
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> ... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
> - Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22

On 13/02/2024 19:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
> be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.

Cost.

In message <uqgfot$27k20$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:26:20,
Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes
>Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
>be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
> Brian
>
Same reason not all (weighing - bathroom or kitchen) scales/clocks, and
many other appliances, don't have speech output. Though it wouldn't cost
_much_, the manufacturers won't do it if it costs _any_ more, and they
don't think they'd get enough extra sales to justify it.

(I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
expensive.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22

In message <uqgg21$27lr2$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:31:12,
Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes
>Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as
>modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the
>right place nowadays.
>
>I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to
>get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
>the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian
>

I remember when the GP system was just being set up - not all the
satellites up, or something - being shown with some pride by a colleague
at work a GPS receiver; it was a full-size PC plug-in card, and he had
what must have been an unusual laptop as it could take such a card
(though only one). He proudly told me - with a twinkle in his eye, he
was like that - that B block, the building we were in, was proceeding at
X knots in a ?erly direction.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for
everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off. - Albert
Pierrepoint, in his 1974 autobiography.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:35:56 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 13/02/2024 19:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
>> be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
>
>
>
>Cost.

You can buy a radio controlled wall clock from Argos for less than
twenty quid. Some of the ones that *don't* have the radio timecode
feature are more expensive, which suggests that this is not the main
determinant of price.

Rod.

On 13/02/2024 16:51, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 13/02/2024 16:32, Max Demian wrote:

>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
>> required.
>>
> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
>
> It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel
> something in the right direction towards Pluto

That is something which I very rarely do.

--
Max Demian

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

> In message <uqgfot$27k20$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:26:20,
> Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes
> >Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
> >be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
> > Brian
> >
> Same reason not all (weighing - bathroom or kitchen) scales/clocks, and
> many other appliances, don't have speech output. Though it wouldn't cost
> _much_, the manufacturers won't do it if it costs _any_ more, and they
> don't think they'd get enough extra sales to justify it.
>
> (I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
> many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
> genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
> expensive.)

I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 14/02/2024 13:13, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
> hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
> useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".

I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
never get off Berlin Time!

A couple of years ago I bought analogue ones and they are lasting well,
easy to read and keep good time.

At least Argos are good at replacing things without question.

Worth trying to become one of their reviewers.

They get to review new items and keep them. A friend has had >£1000
exercise machine of some sort (he had no use for ir and obviously cannot
sell so gave it to a local youth club) and a laptop as well as lots of
smaller items.

On Wed 14/02/2024 15:39, JMB99 wrote:
> On 14/02/2024 13:13, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
>> hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out.  Utterly
>> useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".
>
>
> I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
> several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
> never get off Berlin Time!
>
>

Er, Frankfurt on 77.5kHz?

In message <1qox5vl.14jrnsn1nkqzn2N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> at
Wed, 14 Feb 2024 13:13:57, Liz Tuddenham
<liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]
>> (I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
>> many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
>> genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
>> expensive.)
>
>I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
>hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
>useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".
>
Ah, my Lidl one is LCD, not hands. Auriol model 4-LD3010-3 (Lidl IAN
56184), bought for 4.99 on 17.03.11 (so 13 years ago!). [I'm an
inveterate box and receipt keeper!] Even has a temperature readout!
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Today, I dare say more people know who starred as /The Vicar of Dibley/ than
know the name of the vicar of their local parish. - Clive Anderson, Radio
Times 15-21 January 2011.

On 14/02/2024 17:58, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> Ah, my Lidl one is LCD, not hands. Auriol model 4-LD3010-3 (Lidl IAN
> 56184), bought for 4.99 on 17.03.11 (so 13 years ago!). [I'm an
> inveterate box and receipt keeper!] Even has a temperature readout!

I think the digital display ones were LIDL (and many have failed) not Argos.

JMB99 wrote:

>I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
>several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
>never get off Berlin Time!
>
>A couple of years ago I bought analogue ones and they are lasting well,
>easy to read and keep good time.

I have a conceptual issue with digital clocks. I would say that
there are two main reasons for looking at a clock. One is to know
what the time is now, the other is to accurately synchronise some
operation.

Assume that the digital clock is set to increment the minute
precisely at the time indicated, and seconds are not displayed.

The time shown will then be up to 59 seconds slow, and the error
overall would be minimised if changeover was initiated 30 seconds
later.

This, however is not useful if you want to set your analogue
clock in synch.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
> JMB99 wrote:
>
>> I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
>> several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
>> never get off Berlin Time!
>>
>> A couple of years ago I bought analogue ones and they are lasting well,
>> easy to read and keep good time.
>
> I have a conceptual issue with digital clocks. I would say that
> there are two main reasons for looking at a clock. One is to know
> what the time is now, the other is to accurately synchronise some
> operation.
>
> Assume that the digital clock is set to increment the minute
> precisely at the time indicated, and seconds are not displayed.
>
> The time shown will then be up to 59 seconds slow, and the error
> overall would be minimised if changeover was initiated 30 seconds
> later.
>
> This, however is not useful if you want to set your analogue
> clock in synch.
>
> Chris

Every digital display radio controlled clock that I’ve owned has a seconds
display.
What I find odd is that it is not possible to buy a cheap WiFi connected
clock that uses ntp to get the time.