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aus+uk / uk.rec.cycling / Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here

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Subject: Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: swldx...@gmail.com
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 13:27 UTC
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Subject: Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_c
an’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: swldxer1958@gmail.com (swldx...@gmail.com)
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WELL WELL!

A motorist who landed himself a bill of £4,500 when he turned down an invitation to undergo a driver awareness course after making a close pass on a cyclist got no sympathy from celebrity solicitor Nick ‘Mr Loophole’ Freeman – with the lawyer tweeting that “the driver was  in my view, too close re new Highway Code.”

We featured the video, filmed near Bridgend in south Wales, on Tuesday as part of our Near Miss of the Day series, with the driver, who also failed to pay a fixed penalty office, convicted of driving without due care and attention at Cardiff Magistrates’ Court.

The story was picked up by the mainstream media, and in his tweet Freeman said that the motorist had been “Ill advised not to accept the course offered. Drivers should be aware that due care carries an unlimited fine plus 3 – 9 penalty points and discretionary ban.”

While the incident took place last September, so before the Highway Code changes implemented in January that Freeman referenced in his tweet, at the time drivers were still advised to leave cyclists at least as much space as they would when overtaking a car.

Company director Wayne Humphreys, quoted in the Daily Mail (link is external), continues to protest his innocence, however, and said the case had left him £4,500 out of pocket including his own legal fees.

“Taking into account the cyclist and his bike there would have still been at least four foot space,” he claimed.

“I find it absolutely incredible this has happened. I don't know whether to appeal it or not. It will probably just cost me more money.

“This has already cost me about £4,500 with the money for the court and the solicitor.

“It doesn't make sense to me,” added the 77 year old, who has held a driving licence for six decades.

The footage was originally submitted to GoSafe, which co-ordinates Operation Snap on behalf of the four police forces in Wales.

A spokesperson said: “GoSafe received footage of a white Audi overtaking a cyclist on Pant Hirwaun, Bridgend on Wednesday, 15th September 2021, without leaving enough space to perform the manoeuvre.

“The driver, Wayne Humphreys, from Pontyclun, was contacted and offered a course. The What's Driving Us course is offered to drivers/riders as an alternative to prosecution for the offence of driving without due care and attention.

“Mr Humphreys failed to accept this course and later failed to comply with a fixed penalty notice. This resulted in him appearing in Cardiff Magistrates Court on 8th June 2022. He was found guilty of driving without due care and attention. He received 4 penalty points on his license, given a £1152 fine, £620 costs, and a £115 victim surcharge.

“GoSafe regularly receives similar submissions through Op Snap and has worked closely with drivers and cycling groups to develop Operation Close Pass, which looks to educate both drivers and cyclists on how to stay safe on our roads. This includes promoting one of the fundamental things to remember when overtaking a cyclist, to reduce your speed and always leave 1.5 metres between your vehicle and a cyclist, whenever safe to do so.

“Despite this, unfortunately, GoSafe continues to receive regular Op Snap submissions relating to close pass incidents. This outcome shows that these submissions are taken seriously and given the appropriate amount of attention, as we continue to work towards ensuring that our roads are safer for everyone.

“If you have information on close pass incident or other possible road traffic offence, you can submit the details, along with supporting footage, to GoSafe using Operation Snap.”

Dave, the road.cc reader who submitted the footage, told us: “From all of my correspondence with South Wales Police they have been great with dealing with close pass videos.

“They have provided good feedback on most the videos and are quick to respond if they need more information.”

It’s the second Near Miss of the Day video we’ve featured from South Wales in recent days in which a driver opted not to take an awareness course or pay a fixed penalty notice and landed himself with a hefty fine – with the other instance also being picked up by the nationals, including The Sun (link is external).

https://road.cc/content/news/nmotd-784-updated-even-mr-loophole-cant-see-loophole-293649


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: Spike
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 08:43 UTC
References: 1 2
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From: Aero.Spike@mail.invalid (Spike)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_ca
n’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 08:43:11 +0000
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed
by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
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On 16/06/2022 20:06, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
 The _Kaner | 1294 posts | 6 hours ago
4 likes

“Taking into account the cyclist and his bike there would have still been at least four foot space,” he claimed.
There's not even "4 foot space" between the door of the vehicle and the edge of the road....there might have been as much space from the driver's shoulder to the cyclists shoulder...

see:

https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/inbound5285272843216541415.jpg

That's a single frame from a video. Why not link to that instead? Is
someone trying to hide something?


--
Spike


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: Spike
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:36 UTC
References: 1 2
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From: Aero.Spike@mail.invalid (Spike)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_ca
n’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:36:22 +0000
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed
by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
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On 17/06/2022 09:30, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 2:27:23 PM UTC+1, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
WELL WELL!

bikes | 12 posts | 9 hours ago
3 likes

If that's 4 feet of space, then the other drivers are leaving about 20 feet? It's dangerous driving.

The telegraph comments are pretty funny: "I'm a cyclist, and I would be fine with that distance"

One claimed bike cameras make cars look closer than they really are...

That's why we need professional analysis of these videos, rather than by
a junior constable.

--
Spike


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: swldx...@gmail.com
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:40 UTC
References: 1
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Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loopho
le_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: swldxer1958@gmail.com (swldx...@gmail.com)
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immy Ray Will | 1199 posts | 35 min ago
0 likes
 
As Mr Loophole states, the right course of action was to take the course. It's ~£80, and provides an opportunity to learn something. i.e. you may feel aggrieved that you didn't have a choice, but you've paid for some training and personal development.

Going to court, even if you win, will cost you a lot more than £80 in legal fees for nothing more than a feeling of vindication. However, that feeling will quickly turn to frustration about the money wasted in clearing your name.

Alas, Mr Humphreys felt that being right was more important than personal financial cost. Whilst he maybe absolute in his beliefs that he did nothing wrong, at least three separate entities have judged it differently; at some point he has to acknowledge he might have this one wrong.

I feel for him, his pride and stubbornous has cost him dearly. It's not the cyclists fault he is in this pickle, this is all his own work.

(((APPLAUSE)))


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: Spike
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:45 UTC
References: 1 2
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From: Aero.Spike@mail.invalid (Spike)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_ca
n’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:45:26 +0000
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed
by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Lines: 19
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On 17/06/2022 14:40, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
immy Ray Will | 1199 posts | 35 min ago
0 likes

As Mr Loophole states, the right course of action was to take the course. It's ~£80, and provides an opportunity to learn something. i.e. you may feel aggrieved that you didn't have a choice, but you've paid for some training and personal development.

Going to court, even if you win, will cost you a lot more than £80 in legal fees for nothing more than a feeling of vindication. However, that feeling will quickly turn to frustration about the money wasted in clearing your name.

Alas, Mr Humphreys felt that being right was more important than personal financial cost. Whilst he maybe absolute in his beliefs that he did nothing wrong, at least three separate entities have judged it differently; at some point he has to acknowledge he might have this one wrong.

I feel for him, his pride and stubbornous has cost him dearly. It's not the cyclists fault he is in this pickle, this is all his own work.

(((APPLAUSE)))

Unfortunately, Charlie Alliston thought much the same way following his
slaying of Kim Briggs, but the pickle he was in was is all his own work

--
Spike


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: swldx...@gmail.com
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:47 UTC
References: 1
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Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loopho
le_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: swldxer1958@gmail.com (swldx...@gmail.com)
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I've given this some thought and I'm not sure if the guidance of allowing 1.5m space when overtaking a cyclist could be interpreted as leave a 1.5m gap between the cyclist and your vehicle or leave a 1.5m wide gap on the road for the cyclist.

This may have been what the defendant was trying to argue and looking at the above it looks like he left 4ft between his car and the verge!!

I hope courts do not interpret the 1.5 m gap as being 1.5 m from the edge of the road as quite often need to move more than 1m from edge of road to avoid potholes or debris, and would not want someone speeding past my elbow claiming I had 1.5m to my left!!



Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: Spike
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:02 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Aero.Spike@mail.invalid (Spike)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_ca
n’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:02:15 +0000
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed
by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Lines: 15
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On 17/06/2022 14:47, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

I've given this some thought and I'm not sure if the guidance of allowing 1.5m space when overtaking a cyclist could be interpreted as leave a 1.5m gap between the cyclist and your vehicle or leave a 1.5m wide gap on the road for the cyclist.

This may have been what the defendant was trying to argue and looking at the above it looks like he left 4ft between his car and the verge!!

I hope courts do not interpret the 1.5 m gap as being 1.5 m from the edge of the road as quite often need to move more than 1m from edge of road to avoid potholes or debris, and would not want someone speeding past my elbow claiming I had 1.5m to my left!!

 "...quite often need to move more than 1m from edge of road to avoid
potholes or debris".

That's very unwise, and could constitute Dangerous Cycling.

--
Spike


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: Spike
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:50 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Aero.Spike@mail.invalid (Spike)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_ca
n’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:50:32 +0000
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed
by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Lines: 9
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On 17/06/2022 15:03, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - I have always understood the intention is for 1.5 m from cyclist, and it is what I want as a cyclist, but the wording of the HC rule leave enough space as you would a car and allow 1.5 m could be misinterpreted, as I believe this driver may have thought that leave a road space of (almost but not quite 1.5m) was enough, given that many car drivers overtake other cars with a gnats whisker between their wing/door mirrors!  Its when you see the picture in the HC and supporting material like the cycling UK close pass mats that this is clear, but how many drivers read the HC cover to cover, they probably just get snippets of the rules quoted by the daily Heil.  Just thinking that if that is the case here then part of the education should be explicit leave a 1.5 m gap from the cyclist!

Obviously the HC needs clarifying. Cyclists should now be lobbying for
at least 3.5m clearance.


--
Spike


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: JNugent
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: Home User
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 18:49 UTC
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From: jennings&co@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophol
e_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 19:49:26 +0100
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On 17/06/2022 04:02 pm, Spike wrote:
On 17/06/2022 14:47, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

I've given this some thought and I'm not sure if the guidance of allowing 1.5m space when overtaking a cyclist could be interpreted as leave a 1.5m gap between the cyclist and your vehicle or leave a 1.5m wide gap on the road for the cyclist.

This may have been what the defendant was trying to argue and looking at the above it looks like he left 4ft between his car and the verge!!

I hope courts do not interpret the 1.5 m gap as being 1.5 m from the edge of the road as quite often need to move more than 1m from edge of road to avoid potholes or debris, and would not want someone speeding past my elbow claiming I had 1.5m to my left!!

  "...quite often need to move more than 1m from edge of road to avoid
potholes or debris".

That's very unwise, and could constitute Dangerous Cycling.

Veering into the path of an overtaking vehicle?

I should say so.


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: JNugent
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From: jennings&co@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophol
e_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
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On 17/06/2022 04:50 pm, Spike wrote:

On 17/06/2022 15:03, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

Maybe I wasn't clear enough - I have always understood the intention is for 1.5 m from fairy-cyclist, and it is what I want as a fairy-cyclist, but the wording of the HC rule leave enough space as you would a car and allow 1.5 m could be misinterpreted, as I believe this driver may have thought that leave a road space of (almost but not quite 1.5m) was enough, given that many car drivers overtake other cars with a gnats whisker between their wing/door mirrors!  Its when you see the picture in the HC and supporting material like the fairy-cycling UK close pass mats that this is clear, but how many drivers read the HC cover to cover, they probably just get snippets of the rules quoted by the daily Heil.  Just thinking that if that is the case here then part of the education should be explicit leave a 1.5 m gap from the cyclist!

Obviously the HC needs clarifying. Cyclists should now be lobbying for
at least 3.5m clearance.

Why not 50m?


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: Spike
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 07:59 UTC
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From: Aero.Spike@mail.invalid (Spike)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_ca
n’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 07:59:02 +0000
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On 17/06/2022 18:50, JNugent wrote:
On 17/06/2022 04:50 pm, Spike wrote:

On 17/06/2022 15:03, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

Maybe I wasn't clear enough - I have always understood the intention is for 1.5 m from fairy-cyclist, and it is what I want as a fairy-cyclist, but the wording of the HC rule leave enough space as you would a car and allow 1.5 m could be misinterpreted, as I believe this driver may have thought that leave a road space of (almost but not quite 1.5m) was enough, given that many car drivers overtake other cars with a gnats whisker between their wing/door mirrors!  Its when you see the picture in the HC and supporting material like the fairy-cycling UK close pass mats that this is clear, but how many drivers read the HC cover to cover, they probably just get snippets of the rules quoted by the daily Heil.  Just thinking that if that is the case here then part of the education should be explicit leave a 1.5 m gap from the cyclist!

Obviously the HC needs clarifying. Cyclists should now be lobbying for
at least 3.5m clearance.

Why not 50m?

Why not, indeed!

--
Spike


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: swldx...@gmail.com
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Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 10:42 UTC
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Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loopho
le_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
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On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:59:59 PM UTC+1, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
Does this help explain it better then ?

https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/close-pass-mats-.jpg


 andystow replied to Awavey | 685 posts | 1 day ago
13 likes
 
No, even that is wrong. The arrow marking 1.5 m should start even with the cyclist's right elbow or knee, or the end of the bar. The width of the cyclist is entirely missing from the diagram.


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: Spike
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed by-product of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do"
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 08:58 UTC
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From: Aero.Spike@mail.invalid (Spike)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_ca
n’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 08:58:23 +0000
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On 18/06/2022 10:42, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:59:59 PM UTC+1, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
Does this help explain it better then ?

https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/close-pass-mats-.jpg

 andystow replied to Awavey | 685 posts | 1 day ago
13 likes

No, even that is wrong. The arrow marking 1.5 m should start even with the cyclist's right elbow or knee, or the end of the bar. The width of the cyclist is entirely missing from the diagram.

And the official source of this assertion is where?

--
Spike


Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophole_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
From: JNugent
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Organization: Home User
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:36 UTC
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From: jennings&co@fastmail.fm (JNugent)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Subject: Re:_Near_Miss_of_the_Day_784_updated:_Even_Mr_Loophol
e_can’t_see_a_loophole_here
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 12:36:14 +0100
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On 19/06/2022 11:22 am, swldx...@gmail.com...

....speaking to himself yet again, said:

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 2:27:23 PM UTC+1, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:

WELL WELL!

  fixit replied to Jimmy Ray Will | 171 posts | 1 day ago

it is an AUDI... arogance levell 10000000.. he or she will pay double or multiple just to proove that it is the audi's right to do whatever they want

That, folks, is a useful indication of the intelligence level of the average fairy-cyclist.

And their selfishness level.


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