Daily Telegraph video of attack on Reni, Ukraine 03 Sep 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g1nQkePwJM

There doesn't seem to be any evidence despite their being 'evidence'.
Romania probably took any debris and threw it back over the border.

On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 06:21:19 GMT
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Daily Telegraph video of attack on Reni, Ukraine 03 Sep 2023
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g1nQkePwJM
>
> There doesn't seem to be any evidence despite their being 'evidence'.

I's hard to tell what evidence there actually is, whether Ukraine is lying and making shit up again to try and drag NATO deeper into the conflict.

Like they did when one of Ukraine's missiles crashed into Poland, killed two people.

No surprise it was followed by the usual 'and this is why NATO needs to provide us with the latest whiz-bang fighting gear, air defence systems, fighter jets'.

I wouldn't put it past Ukraine to be running false flag operations to try and drag NATO deeper int the mire. As NATO believes was the case with their blowing up the Nord Stream 2 pipline.

> Romania probably took any debris and threw it back over the border.

Given NATO is so chicken shit scared of being dragged into direct conflict with Russia, knows that means World War III and nuclear annihilation, it's always a possibility, a very likely possibility I would say, should it need to be done.

We are sacrificing Ukrainian lives so we don't have to risk our own in Biden's War on Russia. It would be disastrous if we let Ukraine derail that.

Biden is having to walk a tight line in keeping the endless war going while stopping it from escalating and the problem is he's not in control of it. Some in NATO, particularly the UK, would like to see it turn into World War III, think we can win against Russia after losing in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria.

Our best hope to avoid war is that Trump wins in 2024 and surrenders Ukraine to the Russians as he has indicated he would.

On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:35:58 +0100, The Happy Hippy wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 06:21:19 GMT TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Daily Telegraph video of attack on Reni, Ukraine 03 Sep 2023
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g1nQkePwJM
>>
>> There doesn't seem to be any evidence despite their being 'evidence'.
>
> I's hard to tell what evidence there actually is, whether Ukraine is
> lying and making shit up again to try and drag NATO deeper into the
> conflict.
>
> Like they did when one of Ukraine's missiles crashed into Poland, killed
> two people.
>
> No surprise it was followed by the usual 'and this is why NATO needs to
> provide us with the latest whiz-bang fighting gear, air defence systems,
> fighter jets'.
>
> I wouldn't put it past Ukraine to be running false flag operations to
> try and drag NATO deeper int the mire. As NATO believes was the case
> with their blowing up the Nord Stream 2 pipline.
>
>
>> Romania probably took any debris and threw it back over the border.
>
> Given NATO is so chicken shit scared of being dragged into direct
> conflict with Russia, knows that means World War III and nuclear
> annihilation, it's always a possibility, a very likely possibility I
> would say, should it need to be done.
>
> We are sacrificing Ukrainian lives so we don't have to risk our own in
> Biden's War on Russia. It would be disastrous if we let Ukraine derail
> that.
>
> Biden is having to walk a tight line in keeping the endless war going
> while stopping it from escalating and the problem is he's not in control
> of it. Some in NATO, particularly the UK, would like to see it turn into
> World War III, think we can win against Russia after losing in
> Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria.
>
> Our best hope to avoid war is that Trump wins in 2024 and surrenders
> Ukraine to the Russians as he has indicated he would.

Trump will only end the war if Russia believes Trump will be able to
follow through with any threats that he makes and won't get sabotaged and
also if Russia believes they'd lose any war of attrition. I'm sure Putin
is willing to put years into this if he wins at the end of it and Trump
will likely be gone before Putin.

I'm not so sure Trump will end this war. He can withdraw support from
Ukraine but Ukrainians could carry on the war against Russia with simple
weapons like the Palestinians fight Israel. I can't see them just handing
over their country because Trump tells them to no matter how powerful the
US is.

On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:16:59 GMT
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:35:58 +0100, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 06:21:19 GMT TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Daily Telegraph video of attack on Reni, Ukraine 03 Sep 2023
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g1nQkePwJM
> >>
> >> There doesn't seem to be any evidence despite their being
> >> 'evidence'.
> >
> > I's hard to tell what evidence there actually is, whether Ukraine is
> > lying and making shit up again to try and drag NATO deeper into the
> > conflict.
> >
> > Like they did when one of Ukraine's missiles crashed into Poland,
> > killed two people.
> >
> > No surprise it was followed by the usual 'and this is why NATO
> > needs to provide us with the latest whiz-bang fighting gear, air
> > defence systems, fighter jets'.
> >
> > I wouldn't put it past Ukraine to be running false flag operations
> > to try and drag NATO deeper int the mire. As NATO believes was the
> > case with their blowing up the Nord Stream 2 pipline.
> >
> >
> >> Romania probably took any debris and threw it back over the
> >> border.
> >
> > Given NATO is so chicken shit scared of being dragged into direct
> > conflict with Russia, knows that means World War III and nuclear
> > annihilation, it's always a possibility, a very likely possibility I
> > would say, should it need to be done.
> >
> > We are sacrificing Ukrainian lives so we don't have to risk our own
> > in Biden's War on Russia. It would be disastrous if we let Ukraine
> > derail that.
> >
> > Biden is having to walk a tight line in keeping the endless war
> > going while stopping it from escalating and the problem is he's not
> > in control of it. Some in NATO, particularly the UK, would like to
> > see it turn into World War III, think we can win against Russia
> > after losing in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria.
> >
> > Our best hope to avoid war is that Trump wins in 2024 and surrenders
> > Ukraine to the Russians as he has indicated he would.
>
>
> Trump will only end the war if Russia believes Trump will be able to
> follow through with any threats that he makes and won't get sabotaged
> and also if Russia believes they'd lose any war of attrition. I'm
> sure Putin is willing to put years into this if he wins at the end of
> it and Trump will likely be gone before Putin.

Russia doesn't need to believe they would lose a war of attrition, or even believe they could win one, to accept a peace deal.

If you believe the rightwing scare-mongering propaganda that Russia wants to take the whole of Ukraine as the first step to conquering Europe, that this is the 'win' Putin is after, it won't make sense. But that's not what Putin wants. That is simply anti-Russian, anti-Putin, propaganda.

Putin wants and needs a DMZ between Russia and the west. Ukraine can still be that as it was before Obama stirred the pot, before Biden decided to finish the job.

Putin merely wanted and wants to retain Crimea, protect pro-Russian Ukrainians in the east from the fascists in Kiev. And, I'd presume, to now hold the captured south.

If Trump offers that there's no reason Putin would turn him down. That's why I believe Trump when he says he can end the war in 24 hours. He simply needs to have America recognise that territory as legitimately Russian.

And probably confirm that Ukraine will never join NATO.

> I'm not so sure Trump will end this war. He can withdraw support
> from Ukraine but Ukrainians could carry on the war against Russia
> with simple weapons like the Palestinians fight Israel.

Sure, and how well are Palestinians doing in that fight ?

> I can't see
> them just handing over their country because Trump tells them to no
> matter how powerful the US is.

It won't be handing over their country, just losing the parts which don't want to be Ukrainian and haven't been for nigh on a decade anyway.

It won't just be telling them, it will mean withdrawal of funding and support if they don't comply.

There will be threats to withdraw America from NATO and consequences for countries who goes against Trump. Will we sacrifice an American trade deal just to back what becomes a regional dispute with Russia and is fuelling the cost of living crisis ?

Ukraine does have a trump card up her sleeve. She can threaten to cut off grain supplies to the world, close pipelines crossing the country, unless we do what he wants. She can easily play the 'if you don't help us we'll harm you' game.

Are we going to stand for that, or will the world turn on Ukraine and treat her as a terrorist pariah state ?

Could we even beg Russia to go in and sort that out for us, support a Russian invasion for the good of everyone, go in against Ukraine ourselves ?

It's a romantic fiction that Ukrainians will rally to fight the evil commies and the evil hegemony. They won't be happy with their plight but, Like most people, the overwhelming majority will prefer peace over an endless war which cannot be won, will reject the notion it's better to die on their feet than accept the alternative.

Again, the dispute is mostly over parts of Ukraine which don't want to be and haven't been for almost a decade. It's no great loss. It would be as ridiculous as sacrificing the entire UK just because Gibraltar wishes to become part of Spain.

How well Ukraine fares will depend on how quickly she can suck it up and accept the new reality. If quickly she will get the help needed to rebuild the country. If not it will languish as it is and only get worse. And if Ukrainians choose that path, choose war over peace, we will likely wash our hands of them.

Alternatively, instead of an uneasy peace, one can choose to believe the war on Russia must continue to be fought until we have destroyed humanity because Russia will not allow herself to be defeated without taking us all out with her.

I know which I prefer. I'm not a rapture ready rightwing zealot with a death wish.

I do sympathise with Ukraine. She's been played as a sacrificial pawn by Obama, Biden and Nuland. But we can't and won't change that by destroying ourselves.