https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1815780/ukraine-atacms-russia-biden-putin-bluff

<quotes>

Biden risks it all by calling Putin's bluff with weapon capable of striking Russia's heart

Colonel Richard Kemp expects Vladimir Putin will "start threatening and blustering" over the US giving Ukraine ATACMS, but as Russia refuses to attack NATO, it "won't mean anything".

"They're not going to attack NATO, they won't attempt to attack NATO supplies of ATACMS coming into Poland, because the last thing they want is a fight with NATO. That's what they don't want."

</quotes>

No Putin doesn't want a fight with NATO. But he's not going to shy away from that when the alternative is defeat and humiliation for him and Russia. He's not going to simply accept that and nor will Russians.

"He can't do anything" will just become hollow words and wishful thinking when he does, has no other choice, becomes the dangerous animal we have backed into a corner.

Putin will do just as we would. He'll take as many of us out as he can in a final "better to die on our feet than live on our knees" nuclear bang. It won't be a victory for Russia but it will deny us our win. And that is Russia's win, as it would be ours.

That's what Mutually Assured Destruction was meant to save us from, but we are actively pushing towards it.

The war-mongering hawks don't care. They are Rapture Ready. Locked and loaded. Bring it on.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 15:48:00 +0100, The Happy Hippy wrote:

> https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1815780/ukraine-atacms-russia-biden-
putin-bluff
>
> <quotes>
>
> Biden risks it all by calling Putin's bluff with weapon capable of
> striking Russia's heart
>
> Colonel Richard Kemp expects Vladimir Putin will "start threatening and
> blustering" over the US giving Ukraine ATACMS, but as Russia refuses to
> attack NATO, it "won't mean anything".
>
> "They're not going to attack NATO, they won't attempt to attack NATO
> supplies of ATACMS coming into Poland, because the last thing they want
> is a fight with NATO. That's what they don't want."
>
> </quotes>
>
> No Putin doesn't want a fight with NATO. But he's not going to shy away
> from that when the alternative is defeat and humiliation for him and
> Russia. He's not going to simply accept that and nor will Russians.
>
> "He can't do anything" will just become hollow words and wishful
> thinking when he does, has no other choice, becomes the dangerous animal
> we have backed into a corner.
>
> Putin will do just as we would. He'll take as many of us out as he can
> in a final "better to die on our feet than live on our knees" nuclear
> bang. It won't be a victory for Russia but it will deny us our win. And
> that is Russia's win, as it would be ours.
>
> That's what Mutually Assured Destruction was meant to save us from, but
> we are actively pushing towards it.
>
> The war-mongering hawks don't care. They are Rapture Ready. Locked and
> loaded. Bring it on.

Didn't Japan think just about the same thing when they were planning the
Pearl Harbor attack?

Russia can actually nuke Ukraine without the world coming to an end.
There's an idea that the world will turn its back on Russia if they do
that, and maybe they would have when the war was contained to Ukraine and
was all about the Ukrainians resisting occupation but they might be a lot
less inclined to condemn Russia if it's in response to Ukraine bombing
Russian cities with long-range missiles - however much Russia deserves
it.

I still want Ukraine to get Russian forces out of their country, I'm just
not convinces that this is the best way to go about it. We weren't
convinced that this would work this time last year.

It seems like the war is being speeded up, either to gain an advantage
before all the fighting Ukrainians are dead or before Trump becomes
President and withdraws US aid.

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 01:00:18 GMT
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 15:48:00 +0100, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>
> > https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1815780/ukraine-atacms-russia-biden-
> >
> putin-bluff
> >
> > <quotes>
> >
> > Biden risks it all by calling Putin's bluff with weapon capable of
> > striking Russia's heart
> >
> > Colonel Richard Kemp expects Vladimir Putin will "start threatening
> > and blustering" over the US giving Ukraine ATACMS, but as Russia
> > refuses to attack NATO, it "won't mean anything".
> >
> > "They're not going to attack NATO, they won't attempt to attack NATO
> > supplies of ATACMS coming into Poland, because the last thing they
> > want is a fight with NATO. That's what they don't want."
> >
> > </quotes>
> >
> > No Putin doesn't want a fight with NATO. But he's not going to shy
> > away from that when the alternative is defeat and humiliation for
> > him and Russia. He's not going to simply accept that and nor will
> > Russians.
> >
> > "He can't do anything" will just become hollow words and wishful
> > thinking when he does, has no other choice, becomes the dangerous
> > animal we have backed into a corner.
> >
> > Putin will do just as we would. He'll take as many of us out as he
> > can in a final "better to die on our feet than live on our knees"
> > nuclear bang. It won't be a victory for Russia but it will deny us
> > our win. And that is Russia's win, as it would be ours.
> >
> > That's what Mutually Assured Destruction was meant to save us from,
> > but we are actively pushing towards it.
> >
> > The war-mongering hawks don't care. They are Rapture Ready. Locked
> > and loaded. Bring it on.
>
>
> Didn't Japan think just about the same thing when they were planning
> the Pearl Harbor attack?
>
> Russia can actually nuke Ukraine without the world coming to an end.
> There's an idea that the world will turn its back on Russia if they
> do that, and maybe they would have when the war was contained to
> Ukraine and was all about the Ukrainians resisting occupation but
> they might be a lot less inclined to condemn Russia if it's in
> response to Ukraine bombing Russian cities with long-range missiles -
> however much Russia deserves it.
>
> I still want Ukraine to get Russian forces out of their country, I'm
> just not convinces that this is the best way to go about it. We
> weren't convinced that this would work this time last year.
>
> It seems like the war is being speeded up, either to gain an
> advantage before all the fighting Ukrainians are dead or before Trump
> becomes President and withdraws US aid.

Exactly that. Zelensky knows Ukraine has been played for a sucker, that she's just a puppet in Biden's proxy War on Rissia and that his people are sacrificial pawns.

He knows he can't win. NATO won't give him what he needs to win for fear of World War III and its consequences, and knows it's all over once Trump or another Republican wins in 2024 and surrenders the land captured to Russia. All over if Republicans ever get their act together and ends the funding.

His only option is to make things so bad that NATO has no choice but to step-up. False flag hasn't worked, destroying Nord Stream 2 hasn't worked, shelling Zaporizhzhia hasn't made it go bang, breaching the Kakhovka dam didn't work.

All he's got now is hitting Russia in the hope the retaliation is so bad that NATO can't turn a blind eye.

The reason it's speeding up is because Zelensky knows "winter is coming". The whole offensive, which hasn't exactly achieved anything so far, falters in the mud and it's stalemate for six months. Ukraine has to sit back while Russia reinforces its defences to hold the land she's taken. Zelensky is desperate for weapons which can hit Russia so he can continue fighting, can get that Russian retaliation.

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 01:00:18 GMT
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I still want Ukraine to get Russian forces out of their country

But what is Ukraine's country ?

As much as some have pretended Crimea is a part of Ukraine in the last couple of years; we know it isn't. The west confirmed that in 2014 when Obama took Ukraine out of Russia's sphere and the west let Russia keep Crimea with no complaint.

The lands in the east are only Ukrainian because Kiev says they are. The people there have never wanted to be a part of Ukraine since 2014. If they had been given the autonomy and independence they should have been given they wouldn't be.

So the only Ukrainian land occupied by Russians is the south. And, while Russia will insist it's a strategic necessity that those lands must remain in Russian hands to protect pro-Russian peoples, and that does seem the case, that's not necessarily a reason to cede those lands.

The only way to settle that will be as Musk has proposed; hold a UN run referendum in the south and see what the people want.

But if we do and the people vote "Ukrainian", Russia refuses to withdraw, what do we do ? We won;t risk World War III now, so we are unlikely to risk it then. We are completely impotent and Putin knows it.

If it's Trump 2024 then his surrender deal for peace means Russia gets to keep Crimea, the east, and almost certainly the south.

So, whichever way one cuts it Ukraine has lost Crimea, the east, and the south.

They might as well just accept that, suck it up, move on. There are no Russian forces occupying Ukrainian land.