Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?

National Grid said I can in an email.

It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.

What are the advantages and disadvantages?

George

On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>
> National Grid said I can in an email.
>
> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>
> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>
> George

low Re

On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>>
>> National Grid said I can in an email.
>>
>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>>
>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>>
>> George
>
> low Re

ITM Ze

True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
will matter less.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 08/01/2024 18:04, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:

> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>
> National Grid said I can in an email.
>
> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>
> What are the advantages and disadvantages?

Depends a bit on your starting point. PME/TN-C-S will give you a good,
consistent earth with a low external loop impedance. So it is easy to
clear faults without needing RCD protection on all circuits. Arguably,
in this day and age with RCD protection on pretty much everything
anyway, that is less of an advantage than it used to be.

PME makes it harder to export an earth to outbuildings etc since you
will need to export the whole equipotential zone with it. (since you
need to mitigate the unlikely situation where you loose your protective
earth and neutral to the property - that could leave all your earthed
metalwork floating at mains voltage).

So for a self contained domestic install, TN-C-S is the default route
since it works and does not depend so heavily on RCD protection.

If you have a big sprawling installation with lots of sub-mains running
to outbuilding etc, and each of those configured as smaller TT setups,
then TT is often easier. However making sure all the RCDs function
properly is important and so periodic testing is more important.

(my house is wired as TT, but later the supply was upgraded to PME, So I
have the same option. I have left it as TT)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Tuesday 9 January 2024 at 11:31:39 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
> On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
> > On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:

> >> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
> >>
> >> National Grid said I can in an email.
> >>
> >> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter..
> >>
> >> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
> >>
> >> George
> >
> > low Re
> ITM Ze
>
> True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
> will matter less.

Well, we hope. There are still installs about that don't comply with the basics. Last one of those I saw was TT with no RCD anywhere, an all electric house running off a 30A neutral fused incomer. First not ok install I ever saw had the earth rod disconnected, and of course no RCD anywhere. The voltage controlled ELCB was never going to trip.

> > low Re
> ITM Ze

means what?

[g]

On Tuesday, January 9, 2024 at 11:31:39 AM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
> On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
> > On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
> >> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
> >>
> >> National Grid said I can in an email.
> >>
> >> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter..
> >>
> >> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
> >>
> >> George
> >
> > low Re
> ITM Ze
>
> True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
> will matter less.
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
>
> /=================================================================\
> | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
> | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
> \=================================================================/

On 09/01/2024 19:09, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>> low Re
>> ITM Ze
>
> means what?
>
> [g]
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 9, 2024 at 11:31:39 AM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
>>> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>>>>
>>>> National Grid said I can in an email.
>>>>
>>>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>>>>
>>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>
>>> low Re
>> ITM Ze
>>
>> True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
>> will matter less.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John.
>>
>> /=================================================================\
>> | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
>> |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
>> | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
>> \=================================================================/

Ze is Earth Impedance :-)

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:31:34 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
>> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>>>
>>> National Grid said I can in an email.
>>>
>>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>>>
>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>>>
>>> George
>>
>> low Re
>
>ITM Ze
>
>True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
>will matter less.

Is it *really* necessary to invoke impedence in this situation? I know
it's referred to as "Earth Impedance" but we're only talking about
50Hz and soil isn't reactive, so why not just go with plain old
resistance?

On Wednesday 10 January 2024 at 17:52:58 UTC, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:31:34 +0000, John Rumm
> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
> >On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
> >> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
> >>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
> >>>
> >>> National Grid said I can in an email.
> >>>
> >>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
> >>>
> >>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
> >>>
> >>> George
> >>
> >> low Re
> >
> >ITM Ze
> >
> >True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
> >will matter less.
> Is it *really* necessary to invoke impedence in this situation? I know
> it's referred to as "Earth Impedance" but we're only talking about
> 50Hz and soil isn't reactive, so why not just go with plain old
> resistance?

I think we can safely rule out earth inductance. Is there a significant capacitive effect? I assumed not. Unless I'm mistaken Re = Ze.

On 10/01/2024 17:52, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:31:34 +0000, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
>>> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>>>>
>>>> National Grid said I can in an email.
>>>>
>>>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>>>>
>>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>
>>> low Re
>>
>> ITM Ze
>>
>> True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
>> will matter less.
>
> Is it *really* necessary to invoke impedence in this situation? I know
> it's referred to as "Earth Impedance" but we're only talking about
> 50Hz and soil isn't reactive, so why not just go with plain old
> resistance?

Because that is how it is specified in the wiring regulations...

Dave

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:08:30 -0800 (PST), Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday 10 January 2024 at 17:52:58 UTC, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:31:34 +0000, John Rumm
>> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>> >On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
>> >> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>> >>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>> >>>
>> >>> National Grid said I can in an email.
>> >>>
>> >>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>> >>>
>> >>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>> >>>
>> >>> George
>> >>
>> >> low Re
>> >
>> >ITM Ze
>> >
>> >True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
>> >will matter less.
>> Is it *really* necessary to invoke impedence in this situation? I know
>> it's referred to as "Earth Impedance" but we're only talking about
>> 50Hz and soil isn't reactive, so why not just go with plain old
>> resistance?
>
>I think we can safely rule out earth inductance. Is there a significant capacitive effect? I assumed not. Unless I'm mistaken Re = Ze.
>

Quite. It's kind of hard to imagine any kind of phase shift arising
between the fault and earth over the loop lengths one typically
encounters.

On 10/01/2024 21:24, David Wade wrote:
> On 10/01/2024 17:52, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:31:34 +0000, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
>>>> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>>>>>
>>>>> National Grid said I can in an email.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a
>>>>> grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in,
>>>>> afterr the meter.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>>>>>
>>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> low Re
>>>
>>> ITM Ze
>>>
>>> True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
>>> will matter less.
>>
>> Is it *really* necessary to invoke impedence in this situation? I know
>> it's referred to as "Earth Impedance" but we're only talking about
>> 50Hz and soil isn't reactive, so why not just go with plain old
>> resistance?
>
> Because that is how it is specified in the wiring regulations...
>
> Dave

and . . .

Because Impedance incorporates Resistance - and not vice-versa.

PA

On 09/01/2024 11:31, John Rumm wrote:
> On 09/01/2024 07:51, Animal wrote:
>> On Monday 8 January 2024 at 18:04:14 UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge)
>> wrote:
>>> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>>>
>>> National Grid said I can in an email.
>>>
>>> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a
>>> grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in,
>>> afterr the meter.
>>>
>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>>>
>>> George
>>
>> low Re
>
> ITM Ze
>
> True, but if currently TT then it will be fully RCDed anyway, so the Ze
> will matter less.
>
>
>
The only thing you (the OP) might not anticipate is if he has
otherwise-grounded stuff, like an unbalanced radio aerial. Keep its
earth and the PME'd power system well apart!

Otherwise, go for it! I'm too stingy to make the changeover, but since
our local supply was PME'd the dynamic impedance of the PME is less than
an ohm; the conventional house earth is over 100 ohms!

PA

Someone asked about RCDs,
I have 30ma RCDs RCBOs on every circuit,
some shared in split consumer units.
Before them all is a 100ma 100ms RCD.

There are no ring circuits.

There are no radio ham arials

I put in an Building Control notice for new circuits about a decade ago,
and have ripped out all the old perishing rubbery wires and replaced them ....

I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT to TNCS,
( adding a 16mm greeen wire )
is it safer in some way?

George

PS I am using google groups
but its connection to usenet is being phased out soon
so will i have to battle with usenet again?

On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:04:14 PM UTC, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
> Shall I convert from TT to TNCS ?
>
> National Grid said I can in an email.
>
> It would mean connecting an earth wire into a connection under a grommet in the front of the main fues box where power comes in, afterr the meter.
>
> What are the advantages and disadvantages?
>
> George

On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:

> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT to TNCS,
> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )

Several of us have told you that the impedance of the TNCS earth is much
lower that of a local earth.

And, as the old history book "1066 and all that" says:

"This is a GOOD thing" ;-}

On 11/01/2024 19:20, Peter Able wrote:
> On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>
>> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT
>> to TNCS,
>> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )
>
> Several of us have told you that the impedance of the TNCS earth is much
> lower that of a local earth.
>
> And, as the old history book "1066 and all that" says:
>
> "This is a GOOD thing"  ;-}

That's all very good, but what about the case of the "Broken PEN"? It
could be that with the advent of RCDs that TT might now be safer.

On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
> Someone asked about RCDs,
> I have 30ma RCDs RCBOs on every circuit,
> some shared in split consumer units.
> Before them all is a 100ma 100ms RCD.
>
> There are no ring circuits.
>
> There are no radio ham arials
>
> I put in an Building Control notice for new circuits about a decade ago,
> and have ripped out all the old perishing rubbery wires and replaced them ...
>
> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT to TNCS,
> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )

> is it safer in some way?

TN-C-S will offer a very low fault impedance and so can clear faults
quickly, using just just the MCB in many cases - so you have slightly
fewer points of failure. Historically it was also slightly cheaper to
install if starting fresh. (these days with lots of RCDs being the norm,
it does not make much difference)

In your case with a properly setup TT install with time delayed master
RCD and cascaded 30mA trip devices for direct and indirect contact
protection, there is no clear performance of functionality improvement
that would result. TT is also easier if you want to run external
circuits and you don't need to worry about exporting an equipotential
zone should you export an earth etc.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Thursday 11 January 2024 at 19:56:47 UTC, Fredxx wrote:
> On 11/01/2024 19:20, Peter Able wrote:
> > On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
> >
> >> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT
> >> to TNCS,
> >> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )
> >
> > Several of us have told you that the impedance of the TNCS earth is much
> > lower that of a local earth.
> >
> > And, as the old history book "1066 and all that" says:
> >
> > "This is a GOOD thing" ;-}
> That's all very good, but what about the case of the "Broken PEN"? It
> could be that with the advent of RCDs that TT might now be safer.

There are tiny differential risks with both options. I'd be more inclined to trust PME than RCBOs/RCDs, and if that assessment is correct then TNCS is safer. It's minor though, you face way bigger risks in life.

On 11/01/2024 20:43, John Rumm wrote:
> On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>> Someone asked about RCDs,
>> I have 30ma RCDs RCBOs on every circuit,
>> some shared in split consumer units.
>> Before them all is a 100ma 100ms RCD.
>>
>> There are no ring circuits.
>>
>> There are no radio ham arials
>>
>> I put in an Building Control notice for new circuits about a decade ago,
>> and have  ripped out all the old perishing rubbery wires and replaced
>> them ...
>>
>> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT
>> to TNCS,
>> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )
>
>> is it safer in some way?
>
> TN-C-S will offer a very low fault impedance and so can clear faults
> quickly, using just just the MCB in many cases - so you have slightly
> fewer points of failure. Historically it was also slightly cheaper to
> install if starting fresh. (these days with lots of RCDs being the norm,
> it does not make much difference)
>
> In your case with a properly setup TT install with time delayed master
> RCD and cascaded 30mA trip devices for direct and indirect contact
> protection, there is no clear performance of functionality improvement
> that would result. TT is also easier if you want to run external
> circuits and you don't need to worry about exporting an equipotential
> zone should you export an earth etc.
>

Is it *really* any easier to run external circuits from a TT install
than a TN-C-S one? Surely, in both cases it's easiest to not worry about
exporting the equipotential zone and just to make the external circuit
TT by providing it with its own earth rod.

On 11/01/2024 21:41, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
> On 11/01/2024 20:43, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>> Someone asked about RCDs,
>>> I have 30ma RCDs RCBOs on every circuit,
>>> some shared in split consumer units.
>>> Before them all is a 100ma 100ms RCD.
>>>
>>> There are no ring circuits.
>>>
>>> There are no radio ham arials
>>>
>>> I put in an Building Control notice for new circuits about a decade ago,
>>> and have  ripped out all the old perishing rubbery wires and replaced
>>> them ...
>>>
>>> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT
>>> to TNCS,
>>> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )
>>
>>> is it safer in some way?
>>
>> TN-C-S will offer a very low fault impedance and so can clear faults
>> quickly, using just just the MCB in many cases - so you have slightly
>> fewer points of failure. Historically it was also slightly cheaper to
>> install if starting fresh. (these days with lots of RCDs being the
>> norm, it does not make much difference)
>>
>> In your case with a properly setup TT install with time delayed master
>> RCD and cascaded 30mA trip devices for direct and indirect contact
>> protection, there is no clear performance of functionality improvement
>> that would result. TT is also easier if you want to run external
>> circuits and you don't need to worry about exporting an equipotential
>> zone should you export an earth etc.
>>
>
> Is it *really* any easier to run external circuits from a TT install
> than a TN-C-S one? Surely, in both cases it's easiest to not worry about
> exporting the equipotential zone and just to make the external circuit
> TT by providing it with its own earth rod.

Its easier in the sense that with a TT install you can export the earth,
and don't need to worry about its proximity to another "local" earth,
since the earth you are exporting *is* the local earth. So a bit simpler
an cheaper since you don't necessarily need an extra earth rod and RCD
setup for each.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 11/01/2024 19:56, Fredxx wrote:
> On 11/01/2024 19:20, Peter Able wrote:
>> On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>
>>> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT
>>> to TNCS,
>>> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )
>>
>> Several of us have told you that the impedance of the TNCS earth is
>> much lower that of a local earth.
>>
>> And, as the old history book "1066 and all that" says:
>>
>> "This is a GOOD thing"  ;-}
>
> That's all very good, but what about the case of the "Broken PEN"? It
> could be that with the advent of RCDs that TT might now be safer.
>
>
The OP asked "what is the advantage of converting from TT to TNCS."

I responded to that ask. Revolutionary, I grant you };-}

PA

On 12/01/2024 02:14, John Rumm wrote:
> On 11/01/2024 21:41, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
>> On 11/01/2024 20:43, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 11/01/2024 18:38, George Miles (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>>> Someone asked about RCDs,
>>>> I have 30ma RCDs RCBOs on every circuit,
>>>> some shared in split consumer units.
>>>> Before them all is a 100ma 100ms RCD.
>>>>
>>>> There are no ring circuits.
>>>>
>>>> There are no radio ham arials
>>>>
>>>> I put in an Building Control notice for new circuits about a decade
>>>> ago,
>>>> and have  ripped out all the old perishing rubbery wires and
>>>> replaced them ...
>>>>
>>>> I havent seen anyone say what is the advantage of converting from TT
>>>> to TNCS,
>>>> ( adding a 16mm greeen wire )
>>>
>>>> is it safer in some way?
>>>
>>> TN-C-S will offer a very low fault impedance and so can clear faults
>>> quickly, using just just the MCB in many cases - so you have slightly
>>> fewer points of failure. Historically it was also slightly cheaper to
>>> install if starting fresh. (these days with lots of RCDs being the
>>> norm, it does not make much difference)
>>>
>>> In your case with a properly setup TT install with time delayed
>>> master RCD and cascaded 30mA trip devices for direct and indirect
>>> contact protection, there is no clear performance of functionality
>>> improvement that would result. TT is also easier if you want to run
>>> external circuits and you don't need to worry about exporting an
>>> equipotential zone should you export an earth etc.
>>>
>>
>> Is it *really* any easier to run external circuits from a TT install
>> than a TN-C-S one? Surely, in both cases it's easiest to not worry
>> about exporting the equipotential zone and just to make the external
>> circuit TT by providing it with its own earth rod.
>
>
> Its easier in the sense that with a TT install you can export the earth,
> and don't need to worry about its proximity to another "local" earth,
> since the earth you are exporting *is* the local earth. So a bit simpler
> an cheaper since you don't necessarily need an extra earth rod and RCD
> setup for each.
>
There are several restrictions on exporting earths (as we've all
discussed before, at length) and it doesn't cost very much extra to have
a rod and some RCDs on the load end (in addition to the MCB at the
head). Arguably, the only delta cost is the rod, so why not do it this way?
In my case the house has an overhead 2-wire feed to the final pole (in
the garden) and gets earthed there and goes underground to get to the
CU. The sheds and other outside bits are 50-100m away via buried SWA so
are each fed from MCBs and have their own rods. I also added an
additional rod at the house (because I was concerned about the overhead
lines going through trees).

George Miles (dicegeorge) <dicegeorge@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> George
>
> PS I am using google groups
> but its connection to usenet is being phased out soon
> so will i have to battle with usenet again?
>

It ain’t that hard. But if you want a web interface…

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/post.php?group=uk.rec.sheds

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Watching John Ward's
Diverted Neutral Current Demonstration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fen8ekrhlBI
which I dont fully understand makes me think its safer not to convert to TNC-S but to keep to TT.

George

On Friday, January 12, 2024 at 8:24:06 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
> George Miles (dicegeorge) <diceg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > George
> >
> > PS I am using google groups
> > but its connection to usenet is being phased out soon
> > so will i have to battle with usenet again?
> >
> It ain’t that hard. But if you want a web interface…
>
> https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/post.php?group=uk.rec.sheds
>
> Tim
>
>
> --
> Please don't feed the trolls