Images from both sides, as DM proves itself one of the very few unbiased
news sources on either side, at least in this instance.
Tough to look at either side, but one should not shrink from viewing
reality, after all, images our eyes take in sink to the brain, and play
a part forming our opinions.

My simplistic take - Hamas should have not provoked the jews like this,
which absolutely invited, required, bloody retaliation.
The jews for their part are overreacting, hiding behind US protection &
unlimited supplies to act out and use their high tech arsenal basically
for guerilla war, which cannot help but result in high civilian casualties.

The looming ground invasion obviously will be even worse, if last night
was any indication of their tactics, they will bomb a path for their
troops, and the troops will pick through the rubble, declare an area
secure of anything living, then move on to the next.

```````

100 images that shocked the world: Three weeks after Hamas slaughtered
Israeli families, the photographs that illustrate the horrors of their
attack and their dreadful consequences

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12679231/100-images-shocked-world-Three-weeks-Hamas-slaughtered-Israeli-families-photographs-illustrate-horrors-attack-dreadful-consequences.html
--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:29:35 -0400
JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> Images from both sides, as DM proves itself one of the very few
> unbiased news sources on either side, at least in this instance.
> Tough to look at either side, but one should not shrink from viewing
> reality, after all, images our eyes take in sink to the brain, and
> play a part forming our opinions.

But still many, including the American and UK government, believe, rather than bringing the conflict which has been raging for decades to an end, we should continue it, encourage it, are facilitating it, are throwing fuel on the fire.

There is no doubt in my mind that, especially with all the murdered babies, that Israel is as evil as Hamas is, even if pro-Israel propagandists do consider innocent Palestinians to be "sub-human garbage" who deserve to die.

Sadly it's all too reminiscent of what we saw from America's War on Muslims.

In article <20231028202519.00001bd7@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> There is no doubt in my mind that, especially with all the murdered
> babies, that Israel is as evil as Hamas is,

So, you have to agree that Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi Germany.

Same principle, same logic. A direct consequence of what you're saying.

Pretty simple stuff, no percentages nor infinities which are way
beyond your comprehension.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 09:27:15 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:

> In article <20231028202519.00001bd7@ntlworld.invalid>,
> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>
> > There is no doubt in my mind that, especially with all the murdered
> > babies, that Israel is as evil as Hamas is,
>
> So, you have to agree that Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi
> Germany.

What do you think - Do you think Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi Germany ?

And what about America - Do you think America was (at least) as evil as Nazi Germany ?

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:47:40 +0000, The Happy Hippy wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 09:27:15 +0000 (UTC)
> Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:
>
>> In article <20231028202519.00001bd7@ntlworld.invalid>,
>> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> > There is no doubt in my mind that, especially with all the murdered
>> > babies, that Israel is as evil as Hamas is,
>>
>> So, you have to agree that Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi
>> Germany.
>
> What do you think - Do you think Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi
> Germany ?
>
> And what about America - Do you think America was (at least) as evil as
> Nazi Germany ?

I think the difference is what danger the people you are fighting
represent to you, just as a disarmed soldier taken prisoner wouldn't be
considered a combatant despite being an enemy.

The war against Nazi Germany was a fight against a major military power
that was fighting a war of conquest and winning. The war became a fight
for survival.

You can kind of see an equivalent for Israel. Even if Hamas doesn't have
the power of Nazi Germany, their ability to attack by surprise establishes
an ability and willingness to do so and even if they couldn't kill every
Israeli they could turn their lives into a life-long wait to have their
throats slit one day. They're going to be prepared to do anything to not
have to live that life.

That's not going to clear the way for Israel to plow over everyone though,
not if they want to be seen as a civilised people. Even if Israel don't
respond to the judgement of others, Israel's allies likely will. There'll
be a point somewhere where the ends of wiping out every Hamas guy won't
justify the means.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:39:40 +0000, TWP wrote:

> That's not going to clear the way for Israel to plow over everyone
> though,
> not if they want to be seen as a civilised people. Even if Israel don't
> respond to the judgement of others, Israel's allies likely will.
> There'll be a point somewhere where the ends of wiping out every Hamas
> guy won't justify the means.

Scott Adams seems to think that Israel may fight the war as long-term
pressure rather than a sudden all-out attack that might trigger others to
get involved. It's an interesting idea but I don't think the two weeks of
bombing suggests that kind of subtlety.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:39:40 GMT
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:47:40 +0000, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 09:27:15 +0000 (UTC)
> > Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <20231028202519.00001bd7@ntlworld.invalid>,
> >> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> > There is no doubt in my mind that, especially with all the
> >> > murdered babies, that Israel is as evil as Hamas is,
> >>
> >> So, you have to agree that Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi
> >> Germany.
> >
> > What do you think - Do you think Britain was (at least) as evil as
> > Nazi Germany ?
> >
> > And what about America - Do you think America was (at least) as
> > evil as Nazi Germany ?
>
> I think the difference is what danger the people you are fighting
> represent to you, just as a disarmed soldier taken prisoner wouldn't
> be considered a combatant despite being an enemy.
>
> The war against Nazi Germany was a fight against a major military
> power that was fighting a war of conquest and winning. The war
> became a fight for survival.
>
> You can kind of see an equivalent for Israel. Even if Hamas doesn't
> have the power of Nazi Germany, their ability to attack by surprise
> establishes an ability and willingness to do so and even if they
> couldn't kill every Israeli they could turn their lives into a
> life-long wait to have their throats slit one day. They're going to
> be prepared to do anything to not have to live that life.
>
> That's not going to clear the way for Israel to plow over everyone
> though, not if they want to be seen as a civilised people. Even if
> Israel don't respond to the judgement of others, Israel's allies
> likely will. There'll be a point somewhere where the ends of wiping
> out every Hamas guy won't justify the means.

That's the point for me; there is no circumstance in which genocide is the solution.

There is nothing which justifies "we don't have to care about murdering innocent people, innocent children, innocent babies" which appears to be what Israel has decided upon.

They appear to have decided they don't even care if they murder their own, hostages taken by Hamas, don't care if they murder those who would like the conflict to be over as much as they do, don't care if they murder those who have played no part in the conflict, don't care if they murder those who just happened to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is no justification for collective punishment, no justifiable reason for collective labelling any enclave of people "sub-human garbage" and treating them as such. No justification for trying to starve innocent people to death and inflict untold suffering upon them.

Nothing justifies what Israel is doing which falls under various categories of War Crime. They are War Crimes by definition. We recognise them as War Crimes, unhesitatingly condemn them when others commit them.

And just as bad as Israel carrying out War Crimes is supporting her in committing them, refusing to condemn those War Crimes, facilitating those War Crimes, ensuring they continue unabated.

Israel has already gone far beyond any extremes which could be considered reasonable or appropriate, let alone acceptable. Israel is promising worse to come.

In article <20231029192012.00001761@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> That's the point for me; there is no circumstance in which
> genocide is the solution.

Oh, here we go again.

Genocide after genocide after genocide, yet somehow the Gaza
pop. keeps increasing at an incredible rate. For example, it
was 1.64 million in 2012, and 2.1 million in 2021 (which is,
obviously, a huge factor in their economical problems - guess
the Israelis are to blame for that, too?).

In the Mideast at least, ONLY Muslims commit genocide on
Muslims. Syria's civil war, 600,000 killed, etc.

And, the question you cannot answer... what would YOU do?

Report on Hamas' use of human shields in Gaza
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

By engaging in these acts, Hamas employs a win-win scenario: if indeed the IDF
uses kinetic power, and the number of civilian causalities surges, Hamas can
use that as a weapon in the lawfare it conducts. It would be able to accuse
the IDF (and Israel) of committing war crimes, which in turn could result in
the imposition of a wide array of sanctions. On the other hand, if the IDF limits
its use of military power in Gaza to avoid collateral damage, Hamas will be less
vulnerable to Israeli attacks, and thereby able to protect its assets while
continuing to fight.

British Army Colonel Richard Kemp, on Hamas' military tactics
*************************************************************
"However, Hamas -- the enemy that they are fighting -- has been
trained extensively by Iran and by Hezbollah to fight among the
people, to use the civilian population in Gaza as a human shield;
and they factor -- they, Hamas factor in the usage of the civilian
population as a major part of their defensive plan. So even though,
as I say, Israel, the IDF is taking enormous steps -- and I could
tell you about some of those if you're interested -- to reduce
these civilian casualties it's impossible, it's impossible to stop
that happening when the enemy is using them as a shield."

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 20:35:06 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:

> In article <20231029192012.00001761@ntlworld.invalid>,
> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>
> > That's the point for me; there is no circumstance in which
> > genocide is the solution.
>
> Oh, here we go again.
>
> Genocide after genocide after genocide, yet somehow the Gaza
> pop. keeps increasing at an incredible rate.

Another strawman. I never claimed "Genocide after genocide after genocide".

That's just your made up shit and lies. Everyone can see what I did write.

Other propaganda is available.

The Helpless Hippy wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:39:40 GMT
> TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:47:40 +0000, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 09:27:15 +0000 (UTC)
>>> Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <20231028202519.00001bd7@ntlworld.invalid>,
>>>> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is no doubt in my mind that, especially with all the
>>>>> murdered babies, that Israel is as evil as Hamas is,
>>>>
>>>> So, you have to agree that Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi
>>>> Germany.
>>>
>>> What do you think - Do you think Britain was (at least) as evil as
>>> Nazi Germany ?
>>>
>>> And what about America - Do you think America was (at least) as
>>> evil as Nazi Germany ?
>>
>> I think the difference is what danger the people you are fighting
>> represent to you, just as a disarmed soldier taken prisoner wouldn't
>> be considered a combatant despite being an enemy.
>>
>> The war against Nazi Germany was a fight against a major military
>> power that was fighting a war of conquest and winning. The war
>> became a fight for survival.
>>
>> You can kind of see an equivalent for Israel. Even if Hamas doesn't
>> have the power of Nazi Germany, their ability to attack by surprise
>> establishes an ability and willingness to do so and even if they
>> couldn't kill every Israeli they could turn their lives into a
>> life-long wait to have their throats slit one day. They're going to
>> be prepared to do anything to not have to live that life.
>>
>> That's not going to clear the way for Israel to plow over everyone
>> though, not if they want to be seen as a civilised people. Even if
>> Israel don't respond to the judgement of others, Israel's allies
>> likely will. There'll be a point somewhere where the ends of wiping
>> out every Hamas guy won't justify the means.
>
> That's the point for me; there is no circumstance in which genocide is the solution.
>
> There is nothing which justifies "we don't have to care about murdering innocent people, innocent children, innocent babies" which appears to be what Hamas has decided upon.
>
> They appear to have decided they don't even care if they murder their own, don't care if they murder those who would like the conflict to be over as much as they do, don't care if they murder those who have played no part in the conflict, don't care if they murder those who just happened to find themselves in the >wrong place at the wrong time.
>
>
> Nothing justifies what Hamas is doing which falls under various categories of War Crime. They are War Crimes by definition. We recognise them as War Crimes, unhesitatingly condemn them when others commit them.
>
> And just as bad as Hamas carrying out War Crimes is supporting her in committing them, refusing to condemn those War Crimes, facilitating those War Crimes, ensuring they continue unabated.
>
> Hamas has already gone far beyond any extremes which could be considered reasonable or appropriate, let alone acceptable. Israel is promising worse to come.
>

Well stated

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 18:32:42 -0400
JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> Well stated

Simply forging what people have written doesn't make it so.

In article <20231029212447.00006368@ntlworld.invalid>,
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

>> Oh, here we go again.
>>
>> Genocide after genocide after genocide, yet somehow the Gaza
>> pop. keeps increasing at an incredible rate.

> Another strawman. I never claimed "Genocide after genocide after genocide".

"While rarely said out loud except by the hard-liners it is becoming clear
that the philosophy of an Israeli solution is one of genocide." -Posted by
piglet in Jan 3, 2009, in a thread about Gaza.

The population of Gaza was then 1.45 million.

Now it's about 2.3 million.

That's some fucking effective genocide, isn't it folks?

The Helpless Hippy wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 18:32:42 -0400
> JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:
>
>> Well stated
>
> Simply forging what people have written doesn't make it so.

In this case, it does - Truth stands on its own, lies topple to the gutter.

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

TWP wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:47:40 +0000, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 09:27:15 +0000 (UTC)
>> Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <20231028202519.00001bd7@ntlworld.invalid>,
>>> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is no doubt in my mind that, especially with all the murdered
>>>> babies, that Israel is as evil as Hamas is,
>>>
>>> So, you have to agree that Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi
>>> Germany.
>>
>> What do you think - Do you think Britain was (at least) as evil as Nazi
>> Germany ?
>>
>> And what about America - Do you think America was (at least) as evil as
>> Nazi Germany ?
>
> I think the difference is what danger the people you are fighting
> represent to you, just as a disarmed soldier taken prisoner wouldn't be
> considered a combatant despite being an enemy.
>
> The war against Nazi Germany was a fight against a major military power
> that was fighting a war of conquest and winning. The war became a fight
> for survival.
>
> You can kind of see an equivalent for Israel. Even if Hamas doesn't have
> the power of Nazi Germany, their ability to attack by surprise establishes
> an ability and willingness to do so and even if they couldn't kill every
> Israeli they could turn their lives into a life-long wait to have their
> throats slit one day. They're going to be prepared to do anything to not
> have to live that life.
>
> That's not going to clear the way for Israel to plow over everyone though,
> not if they want to be seen as a civilised people. Even if Israel don't
> respond to the judgement of others, Israel's allies likely will. There'll
> be a point somewhere where the ends of wiping out every Hamas guy won't
> justify the means.

Doesn't appear that the Jews are too worried about maintaining a
civilized appearance - They play lip service to it but thats about it.

Can't say I blame them, I don't like being complicit in their actions
though. That have only 1 friend and 1 ally, and thats the USA, and that
is all they need.
You would be amazed at all the firepower we are shipping there, probably
more in 2 weeks than we have shipped to Poland [for Ukraine] in the past
2 years, no exaggeration. Our transports and steaming over there day &
night non stop, to say nothing of the 2 carrier battle groups on standby
for action [we are also generous enough to pay for the refueling of all
the high tech aircraft we gave them, most of the AWACS, and no doubt all
the intel that we have access to].
There is really not much, if anything, to separate the leadership of the
2 countries at this point, the moves we have made, the things we have
said, the actions we are taking, could not have been better for Israel
if they were calling the shots themselves - And since no one knows who
is actually calling the shots here [hint: Not the stuttering, senile
puppet], it is a bit worrisome for me and many others.

It is true might makes right doctrine in action and, with an endorsement
like that, they aren't about to worry about continuous pics of blasted
babies - And things are on a trajectory to get even worse.

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 00:47:53 +0000 (UTC)
Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:

> In article <20231029212447.00006368@ntlworld.invalid>,
> The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> Oh, here we go again.
> >>
> >> Genocide after genocide after genocide, yet somehow the Gaza
> >> pop. keeps increasing at an incredible rate.
>
> > Another strawman. I never claimed "Genocide after genocide after
> > genocide".
>
> "While rarely said out loud except by the hard-liners it is becoming
> clear that the philosophy of an Israeli solution is one of genocide."
> -Posted by piglet in Jan 3, 2009, in a thread about Gaza.
>
> The population of Gaza was then 1.45 million.
>
> Now it's about 2.3 million.
>
> That's some fucking effective genocide, isn't it folks?

And another strawman. It doesn't mean that Israel isn't currently engaged in War Crimes and what looks to be genocide. At this rate you will soon be denying the holocaust.

Other propaganda is available.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:55:02 GMT
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:39:40 +0000, TWP wrote:
>
> > That's not going to clear the way for Israel to plow over everyone
> > though,
> > not if they want to be seen as a civilised people. Even if Israel
> > don't respond to the judgement of others, Israel's allies likely
> > will. There'll be a point somewhere where the ends of wiping out
> > every Hamas guy won't justify the means.
>
> Scott Adams seems to think that Israel may fight the war as long-term
> pressure rather than a sudden all-out attack that might trigger
> others to get involved. It's an interesting idea but I don't think
> the two weeks of bombing suggests that kind of subtlety.

I am not sure how they could have a 'slow war' which keeps Israel safe, delivers what Netanyahu has promised.

That would also be how it has been for decades.

Israel appears to have decided to make an all-in push to deliver a final solution and doesn't seem like she's worried about any backlash.

I guess they figure they have unconditional support from America and UK which keeps them safe no matter what evil they indulge in and western anti-Muslim sentiment will have more take their side if things do kick off.