I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is supposed to
happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
woodwork.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>

--

Jeff

On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is supposed to
> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
> woodwork.
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>

Having seen that, I am grateful that a smart meter only overcharged me
by £4,000.

--
Colin Bignell

On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is supposed to
> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
> woodwork.
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>

It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and they
promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what before
the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account, delaying the
carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce before we
had started trading; it was a nightmare.

They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
TW

On 2024-01-31, TimW <timw@nomailta.co.uk> wrote:
> On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is supposed to
>> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
>> woodwork.
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>>
>
> It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
> premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and they
> promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what before
> the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account, delaying the
> carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce before we
> had started trading; it was a nightmare.
>
> They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
> TW

As far as I understand the DD sytem, if they didn't tell you how much
they were going to take before they actioned the direct debit then they
were in breach of the DD conditions, and you could have got your bank to
re-imburse, as per the DD guarantee. If they did warn you, then you
could have cancelled the direct debit mandate with the bank until you
had sorted it out.

On 02/02/2024 12:05, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2024-01-31, TimW <timw@nomailta.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is supposed to
>>> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
>>> woodwork.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>>>
>>
>> It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
>> premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and they
>> promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what before
>> the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account, delaying the
>> carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce before we
>> had started trading; it was a nightmare.
>>
>> They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
>> TW
>
> As far as I understand the DD sytem, if they didn't tell you how much
> they were going to take before they actioned the direct debit then they
> were in breach of the DD conditions, and you could have got your bank to
> re-imburse, as per the DD guarantee. If they did warn you, then you
> could have cancelled the direct debit mandate with the bank until you
> had sorted it out.

What is supposed to happen, and what has happened, shows the system
isn't working. From that BBC article, the guy who was massively
overcharged said: "I have an issue with the energy company for doing it,
the bank for allowing it to happen, and the whole direct debit system
for allowing the payment to be taken without any safeguard." That makes
a mockery of the statement at
<https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/your-rights-and-safeguards/>:

"Who actually controls Direct Debit payments?

You do. As the account holder, you can cancel any time you want, just as
you can set up a Direct Debit Instruction. Outside of that, your bank or
building society is responsible for running your account, including all
payments, such as Direct Debit."

I also don't understand the statement at
<https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/issues-with-a-direct-debit/> under
"Can my bank or building society ask me for information about an
error?", it states "Most banks or building societies will have questions
before they can process a claim – that’s not just to make sure it’s
legitimate, it’s also to help them deal with the collecting
organisation. Once an error in the payment of a Direct Debit has been
established, you will be refunded immediately."

Why do they have questions? You set up, with them, the date and amounts
of the DD payments for Company X. If you point out to them that an
amount was debited from your account not in line with that, and/or on
the wrong date, all they have to do is look at your account to see if
what you've said is correct. The statement will show what Company X took
and when. Why does that require questions to be asked and answered
before action is taken?

--

Jeff

In article <upj2fu$2lfja$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 02/02/2024 12:05, Jim Jackson wrote:
> > On 2024-01-31, TimW <timw@nomailta.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
> >>> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is supposed to
> >>> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
> >>> woodwork.
> >>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
> >>>
> >>
> >> It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
> >> premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and they
> >> promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what before
> >> the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account, delaying the
> >> carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce before we
> >> had started trading; it was a nightmare.
> >>
> >> They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
> >> TW
> >
> > As far as I understand the DD sytem, if they didn't tell you how much
> > they were going to take before they actioned the direct debit then they
> > were in breach of the DD conditions, and you could have got your bank to
> > re-imburse, as per the DD guarantee. If they did warn you, then you
> > could have cancelled the direct debit mandate with the bank until you
> > had sorted it out.

> What is supposed to happen, and what has happened, shows the system
> isn't working. From that BBC article, the guy who was massively
> overcharged said: "I have an issue with the energy company for doing it,
> the bank for allowing it to happen, and the whole direct debit system
> for allowing the payment to be taken without any safeguard." That makes
> a mockery of the statement at
> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/your-rights-and-safeguards/>:

> "Who actually controls Direct Debit payments?

> You do. As the account holder, you can cancel any time you want, just as
> you can set up a Direct Debit Instruction. Outside of that, your bank or
> building society is responsible for running your account, including all
> payments, such as Direct Debit."

> I also don't understand the statement at
> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/issues-with-a-direct-debit/> under
> "Can my bank or building society ask me for information about an
> error?", it states "Most banks or building societies will have questions
> before they can process a claim — that‘s not just to make sure it‘s
> legitimate, it‘s also to help them deal with the collecting
> organisation. Once an error in the payment of a Direct Debit has been
> established, you will be refunded immediately."

> Why do they have questions? You set up, with them, the date and amounts
> of the DD payments for Company X. If you point out to them that an
> amount was debited from your account not in line with that, and/or on
> the wrong date, all they have to do is look at your account to see if
> what you've said is correct. The statement will show what Company X took
> and when. Why does that require questions to be asked and answered
> before action is taken?

Because you might have asked to set up a DD by a fraudster and believe the
request to be genuine.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 02/02/2024 16:45, charles wrote:
> In article <upj2fu$2lfja$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 02/02/2024 12:05, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>> On 2024-01-31, TimW <timw@nomailta.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is supposed to
>>>>> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
>>>>> woodwork.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
>>>> premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and they
>>>> promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what before
>>>> the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account, delaying the
>>>> carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce before we
>>>> had started trading; it was a nightmare.
>>>>
>>>> They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
>>>> TW
>>>
>>> As far as I understand the DD sytem, if they didn't tell you how much
>>> they were going to take before they actioned the direct debit then they
>>> were in breach of the DD conditions, and you could have got your bank to
>>> re-imburse, as per the DD guarantee. If they did warn you, then you
>>> could have cancelled the direct debit mandate with the bank until you
>>> had sorted it out.
>
>> What is supposed to happen, and what has happened, shows the system
>> isn't working. From that BBC article, the guy who was massively
>> overcharged said: "I have an issue with the energy company for doing it,
>> the bank for allowing it to happen, and the whole direct debit system
>> for allowing the payment to be taken without any safeguard." That makes
>> a mockery of the statement at
>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/your-rights-and-safeguards/>:
>
>> "Who actually controls Direct Debit payments?
>
>> You do. As the account holder, you can cancel any time you want, just as
>> you can set up a Direct Debit Instruction. Outside of that, your bank or
>> building society is responsible for running your account, including all
>> payments, such as Direct Debit."
>
>> I also don't understand the statement at
>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/issues-with-a-direct-debit/> under
>> "Can my bank or building society ask me for information about an
>> error?", it states "Most banks or building societies will have questions
>> before they can process a claim — that‘s not just to make sure it‘s
>> legitimate, it‘s also to help them deal with the collecting
>> organisation. Once an error in the payment of a Direct Debit has been
>> established, you will be refunded immediately."
>
>> Why do they have questions? You set up, with them, the date and amounts
>> of the DD payments for Company X. If you point out to them that an
>> amount was debited from your account not in line with that, and/or on
>> the wrong date, all they have to do is look at your account to see if
>> what you've said is correct. The statement will show what Company X took
>> and when. Why does that require questions to be asked and answered
>> before action is taken?
>
> Because you might have asked to set up a DD by a fraudster and believe the
> request to be genuine.

I'm not talking about the need for checking when a new DD is set up. I'm
asking about the need for questions when a DD has been running for some
time and the amount and timing of the DD payments varies from that
agreed by *all* parties. The bank supposedly has a record of the DD
agreement and the payers bank account, so a quick glance at both should
reveal if a DD has been taken which is not in line with what was agreed.
In that case, the bank should act to restore the overpayment without
delay of any sort, as it is supposed to under the DD guarantee.

--

Jeff

On 03/02/2024 09:48, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 02/02/2024 16:45, charles wrote:
>> In article <upj2fu$2lfja$1@dont-email.me>,
>>     Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 02/02/2024 12:05, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>>> On 2024-01-31, TimW <timw@nomailta.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is
>>>>>> supposed to
>>>>>> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
>>>>>> woodwork.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
>>>>> premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and they
>>>>> promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what before
>>>>> the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account, delaying
>>>>> the
>>>>> carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce before we
>>>>> had started trading; it was a nightmare.
>>>>>
>>>>> They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
>>>>> TW
>>>> As far as I understand the DD sytem, if they didn't tell you how much
>>>> they were going to take before they actioned the direct debit then they
>>>> were in breach of the DD conditions, and you could have got your
>>>> bank to
>>>> re-imburse, as per the DD guarantee. If they did warn you, then you
>>>> could have cancelled the direct debit mandate with the bank until you
>>>> had sorted it out.
>>
>>> What is supposed to happen, and what has happened, shows the system
>>> isn't working. From that BBC article, the guy who was massively
>>> overcharged said: "I have an issue with the energy company for doing it,
>>> the bank for allowing it to happen, and the whole direct debit system
>>> for allowing the payment to be taken without any safeguard." That makes
>>> a mockery of the statement at
>>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/your-rights-and-safeguards/>:
>>
>>> "Who actually controls Direct Debit payments?
>>
>>> You do. As the account holder, you can cancel any time you want, just as
>>> you can set up a Direct Debit Instruction. Outside of that, your bank or
>>> building society is responsible for running your account, including all
>>> payments, such as Direct Debit."
>>
>>> I also don't understand the statement at
>>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/issues-with-a-direct-debit/> under
>>> "Can my bank or building society ask me for information about an
>>> error?", it states "Most banks or building societies will have questions
>>> before they can process a claim — that‘s not just to make sure it‘s
>>> legitimate, it‘s also to help them deal with the collecting
>>> organisation. Once an error in the payment of a Direct Debit has been
>>> established, you will be refunded immediately."
>>
>>> Why do they have questions? You set up, with them, the date and amounts
>>> of the DD payments for Company X. If you point out to them that an
>>> amount was debited from your account not in line with that, and/or on
>>> the wrong date, all they have to do is look at your account to see if
>>> what you've said is correct. The statement will show what Company X took
>>> and when. Why does that require questions to be asked and answered
>>> before action is taken?
>>
>> Because you might have asked to set up a DD by a fraudster and believe
>> the
>> request to be genuine.
>
> I'm not talking about the need for checking when a new DD is set up. I'm
> asking about the need for questions when a DD has been running for some
> time and the amount and timing of the DD payments varies from that
> agreed by *all* parties. The bank supposedly has a record of the DD
> agreement and the payers bank account, so a quick glance at both should
> reveal if a DD has been taken which is not in line with what was agreed.
> In that case, the bank should act to restore the overpayment without
> delay of any sort, as it is supposed to under the DD guarantee.
>

If you check most Direct Debit agreements are for an un-specified,
un-limited amount.

Dave

David Wade wrote:

> If you check most Direct Debit agreements are for an un-specified,
> un-limited amount.

Yes, but ...

"If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by PSL re
Utility Point or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a
full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building
society."

On 04/02/2024 09:48, Andy Burns wrote:
> David Wade wrote:
>
>> If you check most Direct Debit agreements are for an un-specified,
>> un-limited amount.
>
> Yes, but ...
>
> "If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by PSL re
> Utility Point or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a
> full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building
> society."
>

Does that cover "an error in the calculation of the amount to be
taken, caused by poor data or other reasons outside the control
of the customer" ?.

On 03/02/2024 09:48, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 02/02/2024 16:45, charles wrote:
>> In article <upj2fu$2lfja$1@dont-email.me>,
>>     Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 02/02/2024 12:05, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>>> On 2024-01-31, TimW <timw@nomailta.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is
>>>>>> supposed to
>>>>>> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of the
>>>>>> woodwork.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
>>>>> premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and they
>>>>> promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what before
>>>>> the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account, delaying
>>>>> the
>>>>> carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce before we
>>>>> had started trading; it was a nightmare.
>>>>>
>>>>> They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
>>>>> TW
>>>> As far as I understand the DD sytem, if they didn't tell you how much
>>>> they were going to take before they actioned the direct debit then they
>>>> were in breach of the DD conditions, and you could have got your
>>>> bank to
>>>> re-imburse, as per the DD guarantee. If they did warn you, then you
>>>> could have cancelled the direct debit mandate with the bank until you
>>>> had sorted it out.
>>
>>> What is supposed to happen, and what has happened, shows the system
>>> isn't working. From that BBC article, the guy who was massively
>>> overcharged said: "I have an issue with the energy company for doing it,
>>> the bank for allowing it to happen, and the whole direct debit system
>>> for allowing the payment to be taken without any safeguard." That makes
>>> a mockery of the statement at
>>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/your-rights-and-safeguards/>:
>>
>>> "Who actually controls Direct Debit payments?
>>
>>> You do. As the account holder, you can cancel any time you want, just as
>>> you can set up a Direct Debit Instruction. Outside of that, your bank or
>>> building society is responsible for running your account, including all
>>> payments, such as Direct Debit."
>>
>>> I also don't understand the statement at
>>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/issues-with-a-direct-debit/> under
>>> "Can my bank or building society ask me for information about an
>>> error?", it states "Most banks or building societies will have questions
>>> before they can process a claim — that‘s not just to make sure it‘s
>>> legitimate, it‘s also to help them deal with the collecting
>>> organisation. Once an error in the payment of a Direct Debit has been
>>> established, you will be refunded immediately."
>>
>>> Why do they have questions? You set up, with them, the date and amounts
>>> of the DD payments for Company X. If you point out to them that an
>>> amount was debited from your account not in line with that, and/or on
>>> the wrong date, all they have to do is look at your account to see if
>>> what you've said is correct. The statement will show what Company X took
>>> and when. Why does that require questions to be asked and answered
>>> before action is taken?
>>
>> Because you might have asked to set up a DD by a fraudster and believe
>> the
>> request to be genuine.
>
> I'm not talking about the need for checking when a new DD is set up. I'm
> asking about the need for questions when a DD has been running for some
> time and the amount and timing of the DD payments varies from that
> agreed by *all* parties. The bank supposedly has a record of the DD
> agreement and the payers bank account, so a quick glance at both should
> reveal if a DD has been taken which is not in line with what was agreed.
> In that case, the bank should act to restore the overpayment without
> delay of any sort, as it is supposed to under the DD guarantee.
>

Don't know if this applies to you but when I had a DD for a variable
amount I was able to set a maximum that could be taken.

--
Regards
wasbit

On 04/02/2024 10:34, wasbit wrote:
> On 03/02/2024 09:48, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 02/02/2024 16:45, charles wrote:
>>> In article <upj2fu$2lfja$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>     Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 02/02/2024 12:05, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-01-31, TimW <timw@nomailta.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 31/01/2024 13:39, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>>> I've said many times there are *no* checks, despite what is
>>>>>>> supposed to
>>>>>>> happen. It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> woodwork.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68130784>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It happened to me years ago when I was setting up a business in new
>>>>>> premises. The Electric Co said I had to sign a DD which I did and
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> promptly estimated my charges on the basis of I don't know what
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> the business had even moved in, clearing the bank account,
>>>>>> delaying the
>>>>>> carefully planned move and launch, causing cheques to bounce
>>>>>> before we
>>>>>> had started trading; it was a nightmare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They did refund the money, but it took them weeks.
>>>>>> TW
>>>>> As far as I understand the DD sytem, if they didn't tell you how much
>>>>> they were going to take before they actioned the direct debit then
>>>>> they
>>>>> were in breach of the DD conditions, and you could have got your
>>>>> bank to
>>>>> re-imburse, as per the DD guarantee. If they did warn you, then you
>>>>> could have cancelled the direct debit mandate with the bank until you
>>>>> had sorted it out.
>>>
>>>> What is supposed to happen, and what has happened, shows the system
>>>> isn't working. From that BBC article, the guy who was massively
>>>> overcharged said: "I have an issue with the energy company for doing
>>>> it,
>>>> the bank for allowing it to happen, and the whole direct debit system
>>>> for allowing the payment to be taken without any safeguard." That makes
>>>> a mockery of the statement at
>>>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/your-rights-and-safeguards/>:
>>>
>>>> "Who actually controls Direct Debit payments?
>>>
>>>> You do. As the account holder, you can cancel any time you want,
>>>> just as
>>>> you can set up a Direct Debit Instruction. Outside of that, your
>>>> bank or
>>>> building society is responsible for running your account, including all
>>>> payments, such as Direct Debit."
>>>
>>>> I also don't understand the statement at
>>>> <https://www.directdebit.co.uk/help/issues-with-a-direct-debit/> under
>>>> "Can my bank or building society ask me for information about an
>>>> error?", it states "Most banks or building societies will have
>>>> questions
>>>> before they can process a claim — that‘s not just to make sure it‘s
>>>> legitimate, it‘s also to help them deal with the collecting
>>>> organisation. Once an error in the payment of a Direct Debit has been
>>>> established, you will be refunded immediately."
>>>
>>>> Why do they have questions? You set up, with them, the date and amounts
>>>> of the DD payments for Company X. If you point out to them that an
>>>> amount was debited from your account not in line with that, and/or on
>>>> the wrong date, all they have to do is look at your account to see if
>>>> what you've said is correct. The statement will show what Company X
>>>> took
>>>> and when. Why does that require questions to be asked and answered
>>>> before action is taken?
>>>
>>> Because you might have asked to set up a DD by a fraudster and
>>> believe the
>>> request to be genuine.
>>
>> I'm not talking about the need for checking when a new DD is set up.
>> I'm asking about the need for questions when a DD has been running for
>> some time and the amount and timing of the DD payments varies from
>> that agreed by *all* parties. The bank supposedly has a record of the
>> DD agreement and the payers bank account, so a quick glance at both
>> should reveal if a DD has been taken which is not in line with what
>> was agreed. In that case, the bank should act to restore the
>> overpayment without delay of any sort, as it is supposed to under the
>> DD guarantee.
>>
>
> Don't know if this applies to you but when I had a DD for a variable
> amount I was able to set a maximum that could be taken.
>

Generally not an option. The agreement they give you is always for an
un-specified amount...

Dave