In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
this:

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573

It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it and
save waste - any opinions?

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
> this:
>
> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>
> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it and
> save waste - any opinions?
>

It's whats been used in commercail buildings for the last 10 years, its
starting to be used for domestic now, as it is so quick and cheap to
install. Once boarded it is as solid as the usual timber framing. Sound
insulation, use insulation in the void and pink sound insulating
plasterboards, just like commercial builds have been doing for years.

On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
> this:
>
> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>
> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it and
> save waste - any opinions?
>
Only time I saw that used was in demountable office partitioning when it
was clad with heavyweight plasterboard on both sides. Which is where the
sound insulation comes from in any stud wall that isn't sand filled.

Imagine the sound insulating properties of 4x2 *unclad* wooden studwork.

So it has nothing to do with sound insulation and neither does studwork

It is a tad flimsy, but not by the time it has plasterboard applied, as
that is the main strength of a normal stud wall , if you don't
understand that look up 'stressed skin' construction.

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

On 19 Mar 2024 at 13:13:23 GMT, Alan Lee wrote:

> On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
>> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
>> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
>> this:
>>
>> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>>
>> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
>> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it and
>> save waste - any opinions?
>>
>
> It's whats been used in commercail buildings for the last 10 years, its
> starting to be used for domestic now, as it is so quick and cheap to
> install.

For me it'd be maybe three times the materials cost of ordinary PB and wood
frame if I was starting from scratch. But then my time is free . . .

> Once boarded it is as solid as the usual timber framing.

This doesn't look solid at all. The sections are held together with one self
tapping screw in each corner, and its rigidity appears to come from the
plasterboard. Of course it doesn't need to be strong as such - it serves no
structural purpose. Just feels flimsy, to the point when I was looking for
bits of partition it didn't feel supported at anything like 60cm centres (it
is/was).

> Sound
> insulation, use insulation in the void and pink sound insulating
> plasterboards, just like commercial builds have been doing for years.

Indeed - again, quite a cost hike for me. I'll probably put some rockwool in
the cavity anyway.
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
> this:
>
> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>
> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it and
> save waste - any opinions?
>

The plasterboard on both sides of the wall will add the rigidity. In a
bathroom you may want to use something different as a covering - some
form of waterproof aqua-board for instance. Stagger the boards either
side of the stud wall with the joints in different places. You can add
insulation in the middle before installing the plasterboard sheets on
the final side (or use insulated plasterboard.

Watch a few Youtube videos for fitting/building instructions.

Example wall with sound insulation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amK2edm20ss

I have some suspended ceilings with a framework of individual metal
parts that were as flimsy. Once tied together as a grid the whole
structure became stiff, and even more so once the plasterboard was attached.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 19 Mar 2024 at 13:33:00 GMT, alan_m wrote:

> On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
>> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
>> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
>> this:
>>
>> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>>
>> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
>> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it and
>> save waste - any opinions?
>>
>
> The plasterboard on both sides of the wall will add the rigidity. In a
> bathroom you may want to use something different as a covering - some
> form of waterproof aqua-board for instance. Stagger the boards either
> side of the stud wall with the joints in different places. You can add
> insulation in the middle before installing the plasterboard sheets on
> the final side (or use insulated plasterboard.
>

I've got some aquaboard for the bath side, and think I might stuff rockwool in
there - I've got some spare. I did some reading up on Camden walls (suggested
on the DIY wiki) - I'll look again at the principles, but this is only a
bathroom, with no party walls, just a bedroom next door. Nice though to
isolate certain, er, sounds though I suppose.

> Watch a few Youtube videos for fitting/building instructions.
>
> Example wall with sound insulation
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amK2edm20ss
>

Interesting, thanks. Glued and screwed. Can't think it's *that* much quicker
though . . .

> I have some suspended ceilings with a framework of individual metal
> parts that were as flimsy. Once tied together as a grid the whole
> structure became stiff, and even more so once the plasterboard was attached.

Yes I'm convinced :-) I'll reuse it if I can.
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 19/03/2024 13:13, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
>> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
>> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using
>> sections like
>> this:
>>
>> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>>
>> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
>> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse
>> it and
>> save waste - any opinions?
>>
>
> It's whats been used in commercail buildings for the last 10 years, its
> starting to be used for domestic now, as it is so quick and cheap to
> install. Once boarded it is as solid as the usual timber framing. Sound
> insulation, use insulation in the void and pink sound insulating
> plasterboards, just like commercial builds have been doing for years.
>
>

if you watch 'Chateaux DIY' on C4 every day at 5PM you
will see the intrepid Brits refurbing their new abodes
and quite often this stuff is used, together with
a special crimp tool that joins the verticals to the
top and bottom rails without any additional fixings.

On 19/03/2024 15:12, RJH wrote:

> Interesting, thanks. Glued and screwed. Can't think it's *that* much quicker
> though . . .

I cannot see any advantage of using the glue in that video

If screwing plasterboard or other board into metal studding use the
correct type of screw - fine thread and not coarse thread

https://www.thespruce.com/drywall-screws-comprehensive-guide-1822768

The screws will drive into the metal stud without problem when using a
normal cordless drill.

If joining metal to metal then self drilling screws work well, possible
a bit easier with an impact driver. You do have to make sure that the
two pieces of metal studwork to be joined cannot move when inserting a
self drilling screw. The screw first drills a hole and then self taps. I
used some small clamps on my ceiling frame work

https://www.tooltime.co.uk/products/4-piece-mini-welding-c-clamps-mole-vice-grip-locking-pliers-sheet-metal-pliers

although any clamp that fits will work.

Self drilling screws (longer lengths are available)
https://www.screwfix.com/p/easydrive-wafer-self-drilling-low-profile-screws-4-8mm-x-16mm-200-pack/5004h

Also, some other ideas about installing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suTfdX4mcWY

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 19/03/2024 17:13, alan_m wrote:

> Also, some other ideas about installing
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suTfdX4mcWY

Plasterboard screw bit which helps stopping driving the screw too deep
and breaking the plasterboard paper (possibly cheaper on ebay)

https://www.screwfix.com/p/1-4-25mm-hex-shank-ph2-drywall-screwdriver-bits-2-pack/6623v

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 19/03/2024 13:23, RJH wrote:
> On 19 Mar 2024 at 13:13:23 GMT, Alan Lee wrote:
>
>> On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
>>> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
>>> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
>>> this:
>>>
>>> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>>>
>>> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
>>> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it and
>>> save waste - any opinions?
>>>
>>
>> It's whats been used in commercail buildings for the last 10 years, its
>> starting to be used for domestic now, as it is so quick and cheap to
>> install.
>
> For me it'd be maybe three times the materials cost of ordinary PB and wood
> frame if I was starting from scratch. But then my time is free . . .
>
>> Once boarded it is as solid as the usual timber framing.
>
> This doesn't look solid at all. The sections are held together with one self
> tapping screw in each corner, and its rigidity appears to come from the
> plasterboard.
Exactly

Of course it doesn't need to be strong as such - it serves no
> structural purpose. Just feels flimsy, to the point when I was looking for
> bits of partition it didn't feel supported at anything like 60cm centres (it
> is/was).
>
>> Sound
>> insulation, use insulation in the void and pink sound insulating
>> plasterboards, just like commercial builds have been doing for years.
>
> Indeed - again, quite a cost hike for me. I'll probably put some rockwool in
> the cavity anyway.

Makes fuck all difference.
what you need is sound insulation. Mass. Not thermal insulation Empty
air....

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 23:33:09 +1100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections
> like
> this:
>
> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>
> It gets good reviews but seems flimsy to me, and I can't think the light
> weight and open sections do much for sound insulation. I could reuse it
> and
> save waste - any opinions?

All our new houses are done that way now. Works fine
and never any problem with termites wood rot etc.

On 19/03/2024 13:23, RJH wrote:

> This doesn't look solid at all. The sections are held together with one self
> tapping screw in each corner, and its rigidity appears to come from the
> plasterboard. Of course it doesn't need to be strong as such - it serves no
> structural purpose. Just feels flimsy, to the point when I was looking for
> bits of partition it didn't feel supported at anything like 60cm centres (it
> is/was).

One of the Youtube videos I've link in one of my posts suggests 40cm
centres if hanging something heavy, such as tiles.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
> this:
>
> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573

I think they missed out the decimal point in the weight!

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:utcjar$v35p$1@dont-email.me:

> On 19/03/2024 13:23, RJH wrote:

>>
>> Indeed - again, quite a cost hike for me. I'll probably put some
>> rockwool in the cavity anyway.
>
> Makes fuck all difference.
> what you need is sound insulation. Mass. Not thermal insulation Empty
> air....
>

Perhaps that's why rockwool sold for acoustic insulation has twice the
density of that sold for thermal.

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 21:30:42 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

> On 19/03/2024 12:33, RJH wrote:
>> In the process of moving a stud partition wall over a couple of foot to
>> enlarge a bathroom, and found a metal stud partiton frame using sections like
>> this:
>>
>> https://www.wickes.co.uk/Knauf-Galvanised-Metal-C-Stud---0-55-x-70mm-x-2-7m/p/163573
>
> I think they missed out the decimal point in the weight!

Same here! I first encountered this in a friend's house in France - wondered
what the hell the detector was doing. Tried to drill it, changed the bit to
a new one, nothing happening. Probably a poor alloy with hard bits in it.
I should have known, as I'd seen the stuff on the roof of the 'flat'*

*It was about 90 sq. m. /inside/ the 'shed', with enough shed space left for
a good workshop, space to park several cars and a car port on the end for 3
- 4 cars! Envious, moi?
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 20/03/2024 17:03, fred wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
> news:utcjar$v35p$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 19/03/2024 13:23, RJH wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Indeed - again, quite a cost hike for me. I'll probably put some
>>> rockwool in the cavity anyway.
>>
>> Makes fuck all difference.
>> what you need is sound insulation. Mass. Not thermal insulation Empty
>> air....
>>
>
> Perhaps that's why rockwool sold for acoustic insulation has twice the
> density of that sold for thermal.

At least. Sand is the very best. The only thing rockwool absorbs is very
high frequencies - that's why we line loudpseakers with it. It does
piss all to the bass. There sand earth and concrete work far better as
does thick plasterboard. But by the time you have thick plasterboard,
that's killed the HF anyway so the rockwool is superfluous.

Go to any recording studio and examine how its done. You want find rockwool

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:utgt0m$23sqi$3@dont-email.me:

> On 20/03/2024 17:03, fred wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>> news:utcjar$v35p$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 19/03/2024 13:23, RJH wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed - again, quite a cost hike for me. I'll probably put some
>>>> rockwool in the cavity anyway.
>>>
>>> Makes fuck all difference.
>>> what you need is sound insulation. Mass. Not thermal insulation
>>> Empty air....
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps that's why rockwool sold for acoustic insulation has twice
>> the density of that sold for thermal.
>
> At least. Sand is the very best. The only thing rockwool absorbs is
> very high frequencies - that's why we line loudpseakers with it. It
> does piss all to the bass. There sand earth and concrete work far
> better as does thick plasterboard. But by the time you have thick
> plasterboard, that's killed the HF anyway so the rockwool is
> superfluous.
>
> Go to any recording studio and examine how its done. You want find
> rockwool
>

Whilst in acoustic anechoic chambers that is exactly what you will find,
in the form of tapered wedges.

Current recommended solutions in real life domestic sound isolation
situations compliant with building regs are dual wall partitions filled
with acoustic rockwool, separated by an airgap.

No-one should feel the need to have tonnes of sand delivered to fill
partitions in a domestic environment.

On 21/03/2024 10:15, fred wrote:

> No-one should feel the need to have tonnes of sand delivered to fill
> partitions in a domestic environment.
>

With tonnes of sand you may have a problem in a upstairs bathroom if
there isn't a load bearing wall or a RSJ beneath the stud wall :) :)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 21/03/2024 10:15, fred wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
> news:utgt0m$23sqi$3@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 20/03/2024 17:03, fred wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>>> news:utcjar$v35p$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 19/03/2024 13:23, RJH wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed - again, quite a cost hike for me. I'll probably put some
>>>>> rockwool in the cavity anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Makes fuck all difference.
>>>> what you need is sound insulation. Mass. Not thermal insulation
>>>> Empty air....
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps that's why rockwool sold for acoustic insulation has twice
>>> the density of that sold for thermal.
>>
>> At least. Sand is the very best. The only thing rockwool absorbs is
>> very high frequencies - that's why we line loudpseakers with it. It
>> does piss all to the bass. There sand earth and concrete work far
>> better as does thick plasterboard. But by the time you have thick
>> plasterboard, that's killed the HF anyway so the rockwool is
>> superfluous.
>>
>> Go to any recording studio and examine how its done. You want find
>> rockwool
>>
>
> Whilst in acoustic anechoic chambers that is exactly what you will find,
> in the form of tapered wedges.
>
That is not rockwool

> Current recommended solutions in real life domestic sound isolation
> situations compliant with building regs are dual wall partitions filled
> with acoustic rockwool, separated by an airgap.
>
> No-one should feel the need to have tonnes of sand delivered to fill
> partitions in a domestic environment.
>

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

On 21/03/2024 10:53, alan_m wrote:
> On 21/03/2024 10:15, fred wrote:
>
>
>> No-one should feel the need to have tonnes of sand delivered to fill
>> partitions in a domestic environment.
>>
>
> With tonnes of sand you may have a problem in a upstairs bathroom if
> there isn't a load bearing wall or a RSJ beneath the stud wall :) :)
>
The amount of LF transmissions is almost completely dominated by the
wall mass.
You want quiet? mass and an air gap to isolate structural vibration. and
anything that is acoustically dampening to avoid panel resonance - like
what they use in cars, heavy sticky rubber sheets

Anything that turns a sharp knock into a dull thud.

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> The amount of LF transmissions is almost completely dominated by the
> wall  mass.
> You want quiet? mass and an air gap to isolate structural vibration. and
> anything that is acoustically dampening to avoid panel resonance - like
> what they use in cars, heavy sticky rubber sheets
I used mass-loaded vinyl on a separate stud wall in front of the brick
wall, with gap all round to break transmission paths from
wall/floor/ceiling, then sealed with fire-proof mastic (not for
fire-proofing, but as an acoustic mastic, then two staggered layers of
15mm plasterboard hung on resilient bars.
It did make a good difference for one room, but I decided too much
hassle to do for all rooms on the party wall, I considered a layer of
sand-filled triple flute AAA corrugated cardboard for other rooms, but I
know I'll be leaving eventually, so not as bothered to do anything about
neighbour noise as I once was ... SEP.

On 21-Mar-24 10:53, alan_m wrote:
> On 21/03/2024 10:15, fred wrote:
>
>
>> No-one should feel the need to have tonnes of sand delivered to fill
>> partitions in a domestic environment.
>>
>
> With tonnes of sand you may have a problem in a upstairs bathroom if
> there isn't a load bearing wall or a RSJ beneath the stud wall :) :)

But Wilson, Keppel and Betty would be very much at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn83cCEpZV0

--
Sam Plusnet