<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

Andy Burns wrote:

With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>Andy Burns wrote:
>
>With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
>
>Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).

But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013

In uk.tech.broadcast J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
> 2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
> >Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> >With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
> >
> >Chris
>
> Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
> presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
>
> But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.

They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs
for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News
Channel.

Theo

In message <-Nn*VDQCz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 12 Feb 2024
22:37:51, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>In uk.tech.broadcast J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
>> 2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>> >Andy Burns wrote:
>> >
>> >With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
>> >
>> >Chris
>>
>> Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
>> presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
>>
>> But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
>
>They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs
>for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News
>Channel.
>
>Theo

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think they're a bit
more than that - as I said if you use the FM feed, they're close enough
to set your watch by.

I agree about the BBC News countdown - I don't think there's any
pretence that it counts down to the hour, even allowing for the variable
digital processing time. Sometime last year they even stopped it being a
frame counter and changed it to centiseconds (which of course can't be
displayed on a 25i - or even 50p - system). Well, I wouldn't call it
pompous, but it _is_ often amusingly anachronistic: does any
professional still use a luggable camera with a CRT viewfinder, for
example?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

you can't blame boomers for everything. - Joe Queenan, RT 2023/6/24-30

Chris J Dixon wrote:

> With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.

Seems that most foreign broadcasters have already stopped using them,
but the BBC staff interviewed favoured keeping them for nostalgia/tradition.

In message <l30onfF2jjrU2@mid.individual.net> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024
08:48:46, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>Chris J Dixon wrote:
>
>> With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
>
>Seems that most foreign broadcasters have already stopped using them,
>but the BBC staff interviewed favoured keeping them for
>nostalgia/tradition.
>
What does the _audience_ think? I suspect it's probably an age-related
response, with older people liking them, younger not being so concerned,
though with quite wide variation both ways.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Another lively meeting of thr 1922 Committee - the secret gathering of BBC
presenters that gets its name from the fact that no one is sober after
twenty-past seven. - Eddie Mair, RT 16-22 April 2011

On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:

> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

>On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>
>I do.

Because?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>Max Demian wrote:
>
>>On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>
>>I do.
>
>Because?
>
>Chris

People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I love listening to music that make my eyes water.
- "Super8rescue" 2022

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>> Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>
>>> I do.
>>
>> Because?
>>
>> Chris
>
> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>
> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Because?

>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>
>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>
> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
> everyone is aware of the limitations.

I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

--
Max Demian

On 13/02/2024 16:32, Max Demian wrote:
> On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> Because?
>
>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>
>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>
>> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
>> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>> everyone is aware of the limitations.
>
> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
> required.
>
The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel
something in the right direction towards Pluto

On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
> everyone is aware of the limitations.

The ones who are not aware probably do not bother setting their watches
/ clocks often anyway.

Mark Carver wrote:

> Max Demian wrote:
>
>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
>> required.
>
> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1
second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...

On 13/02/2024 17:21, Andy Burns wrote:
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches
>>> as required.
>>
>> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
>
> Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1
> second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...

Mobile phones take their time reference from the network servers, which
in turn use either the GPS or NPL references.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

no we don't but you could bet someone would moan if they went.
it's seems to be a peculiarly radio thing that many listeners expect the
station to be preserved in aspic, never changing. you wouldn't expect
bbc 1 to be similar to how it was in 1970.
like... the shipping forecast. what person whose life might depend on
that would listen to it on the radio instead of via other modern means?

In article <uqg39f$258qv$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> scribeth thus
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Because?
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>
>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>
>The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
>wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>everyone is aware of the limitations.
>

But near enough for Joe Publick and his missus!..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:AKUrkN2xZnylFwu4@255soft.uk...
> In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
> 2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
>>
>>Chris
>
> Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
> presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
>
> But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> [What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about
> pleasure? -
> Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013

In message <uqg39f$258qv$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:53:19,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Because?
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>
>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>
>The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
>wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>everyone is aware of the limitations.
>
That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not
broadcast them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve
expense.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22

Are you suggesting that the BBC live in the past? grin.
There was a very funny skit on what might be going on during the run in to
news bulletins many years ago. The idea seemed to be that it gave just
enough time for the staff to stop snogging each other and sort their
makeup out.
Brian

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:Uxfean3eXsylFwf4@255soft.uk...
> In message <-Nn*VDQCz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 12 Feb 2024
> 22:37:51, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>>In uk.tech.broadcast J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2nre59is50f9o3ekjc@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
>>> 2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> >Andy Burns wrote:
>>> >
>>> >With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
>>> >
>>> >Chris
>>>
>>> Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
>>> presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
>>>
>>> But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
>>
>>They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs
>>for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News
>>Channel.
>>
>>Theo
>
> That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think they're a bit more
> than that - as I said if you use the FM feed, they're close enough to set
> your watch by.
>
> I agree about the BBC News countdown - I don't think there's any pretence
> that it counts down to the hour, even allowing for the variable digital
> processing time. Sometime last year they even stopped it being a frame
> counter and changed it to centiseconds (which of course can't be displayed
> on a 25i - or even 50p - system). Well, I wouldn't call it pompous, but it
> _is_ often amusingly anachronistic: does any professional still use a
> luggable camera with a CRT viewfinder, for example?
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> you can't blame boomers for everything. - Joe Queenan, RT 2023/6/24-30

Was it not the Muppets who had the pips as pig noised and a pig reading the
news, um all about pigs followed by pigs in space? I'm going back a long way
here.
Brian

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:iI9D0j8UQ3ylFwLR@255soft.uk...
> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>
>>>I do.
>>
>>Because?
>>
>>Chris
>
> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>
> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake of
> it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> I love listening to music that make my eyes water.
> - "Super8rescue" 2022

Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
Brian

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"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:uqg5jf$25iu5$1@dont-email.me...
> On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> Because?
>
>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>
>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>
>> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
>> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>> everyone is aware of the limitations.
>
> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
> required.
>
> --
> Max Demian
>

Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as
modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the
right place nowadays.

I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to
get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:l31l0rF6dklU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 13/02/2024 16:32, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
>>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because?
>>
>>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>>
>>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>>
>>> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
>>> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>>> everyone is aware of the limitations.
>>
>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
>> required.
>>
> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
>
> It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel something
> in the right direction towards Pluto

The internet is far worse, add that over a sat link and it can be more than
a minute. As I said elsewhere in this thread. it would need some clever
calculation for it to appear at the same time everywhere, and then it would
crash into the program.
Brian

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:W08Orr9T27ylFwOs@255soft.uk...
> In message <uqg39f$258qv$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:53:19,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes
>>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c53it5sm6rvnoqburel@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> Because?
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>
>>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>>
>>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>>
>>The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
>>wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
>>everyone is aware of the limitations.
>>
> That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not broadcast
> them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve expense.
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> ... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
> - Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22