Spoiler.
v v
v v
v v
v v
v v
v v
v v
v v
v v
v v
v v

The Sunday Times
Sunday June 11 2023
He is back. Rob Titchener returns to The Archers on Friday to reignite
one of the rural drama’s most gripping stories in recent years.
It is almost seven years since he was last seen in Ambridge at the
centre of a domestic abuse plotline in which he tormented his wife,
Helen Archer. Pregnant with their first child, she stabbed Rob in
2016. It was the culmination of three years of coercive control in
which he sought to undermine her.
Her brother, Tom, noticed bruising on her wrists. Rob stopped her from
driving after she had a car accident and tried to get her older son,
Henry — born via a sperm donor before she met Rob — sent to boarding
school behind her back. When Helen eventually told her husband that
she was leaving him, he told her that the only way she could do so
would be to kill him. She then stabbed him.
“In The Archers, much like everyone’s lives, they all have a backstory
and their past never really goes away,” said Jeremy Howe, the Radio 4
drama’s editor. “A seven-year gap seemed, to me, to be the right kind
of timespan to revisit Rob.”
Howe said he had always planned to bring back Rob from exile in
America, and was waiting for the right time. Helen is now living with
Lee Bryce, a physiotherapist and karate teacher played by Ryan Early,
with Jack, the child she had with Rob, who is now seven, and Henry,
12.
“Since then she’s reforged her life: she’s got her business back on
track, she’s fallen in love, she’s got two boys. But I can’t believe
that, as someone who went through the intense trauma that she went
through, that she will have forgotten it,” said Howe. “It’s part of
her DNA now, and it’s unfinished business.”
There have been hints in recent episodes that Rob, played by Timothy
Watson, would return to the show. A police officer came to tell Helen
her ex-husband was back in the country, ostensibly for the funeral of
his mother, Ursula. It was, said Howe, like “dropping a depth charge”.
The original plan, under the previous editor, Sean O’Connor, had been
for Helen to kill Rob. However, he was kept alive because it would be
more dramatic if he were in court and it opened up the prospect of him
returning.
She gave birth to Jack — whom her ex-husband calls Gideon Titchener —
while she was in prison on remand. Jurors at her trial, played by
guest stars including Catherine Tate, found she had acted in
self-defence after months of physical and mental abuse, as well as the
need to protect Henry, who witnessed the attack. Rob lost a subsequent
custody battle.
Writers on the show researched the topic for months and spoke to
Women’s Aid, the NSPCC, psychologists, doctors and police officers in
an attempt to reflect the experiences of people in such relationships.
“The most important thing is that it’s not a retread of the original
Helen and Rob story,” said Howe. “She’s a very different Helen and
will be dealing with it in a different way. We want to get into
Helen’s headspace, and Rob’s headspace. We don’t want to make him a
two-dimensional villain.”
The plot may draw parallels with Happy Valley, the BBC1 police drama
by former Archers’ writer Sally Wainwright. In that series police
officer Catherine Cawood tries to keep her grandson Ryan away from his
murderer and rapist father.
Louiza Patikas has played Helen since 2000, during which time she has
also dealt with anorexia and faced the suicide of her gamekeeper
boyfriend. The series of events led to her being nicknamed the
“unluckiest woman in Ambridge”.
The Rob storyline triggered nationwide debate about a previously taboo
subject, and was praised in parliament and by Baroness Hale, the
former president of the Supreme Court, for drawing attention to the
insidious nature of coercive control.
With about four million listeners every day, The Archers is also the
BBC’s most-played on-demand radio show.

<redacted>

Is this a spoiler or a trigger warning?

john

On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 15:53:04 +0100, john ashby <johnashby20@yahoo.com>
wrote:

><redacted>
>
>Is this a spoiler or a trigger warning?
>
>john

I stopped listening during the Rob time. I'm considering stopping.

On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 12:23:27 PM UTC, Vicky wrote:
> Spoiler.
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
> v
>
> The Sunday Times
> Sunday June 11 2023
> He is back. Rob Titchener returns to The Archers on Friday to reignite
> one of the rural drama’s most gripping stories in recent years.
> It is almost seven years since he was last seen in Ambridge at the
> centre of a domestic abuse plotline in which he tormented his wife,
> Helen Archer. Pregnant with their first child, she stabbed Rob in
> 2016. It was the culmination of three years of coercive control in
> which he sought to undermine her.
> Her brother, Tom, noticed bruising on her wrists. Rob stopped her from
> driving after she had a car accident and tried to get her older son,
> Henry — born via a sperm donor before she met Rob — sent to boarding
> school behind her back. When Helen eventually told her husband that
> she was leaving him, he told her that the only way she could do so
> would be to kill him. She then stabbed him.
> “In The Archers, much like everyone’s lives, they all have a backstory
> and their past never really goes away,” said Jeremy Howe, the Radio 4
> drama’s editor. “A seven-year gap seemed, to me, to be the right kind
> of timespan to revisit Rob.”
> Howe said he had always planned to bring back Rob from exile in
> America, and was waiting for the right time. Helen is now living with
> Lee Bryce, a physiotherapist and karate teacher played by Ryan Early,
> with Jack, the child she had with Rob, who is now seven, and Henry,
> 12.
> “Since then she’s reforged her life: she’s got her business back on
> track, she’s fallen in love, she’s got two boys. But I can’t believe
> that, as someone who went through the intense trauma that she went
> through, that she will have forgotten it,” said Howe. “It’s part of
> her DNA now, and it’s unfinished business.”
> There have been hints in recent episodes that Rob, played by Timothy
> Watson, would return to the show. A police officer came to tell Helen
> her ex-husband was back in the country, ostensibly for the funeral of
> his mother, Ursula. It was, said Howe, like “dropping a depth charge”.
> The original plan, under the previous editor, Sean O’Connor, had been
> for Helen to kill Rob. However, he was kept alive because it would be
> more dramatic if he were in court and it opened up the prospect of him
> returning.
> She gave birth to Jack — whom her ex-husband calls Gideon Titchener —
> while she was in prison on remand. Jurors at her trial, played by
> guest stars including Catherine Tate, found she had acted in
> self-defence after months of physical and mental abuse, as well as the
> need to protect Henry, who witnessed the attack. Rob lost a subsequent
> custody battle.
> Writers on the show researched the topic for months and spoke to
> Women’s Aid, the NSPCC, psychologists, doctors and police officers in
> an attempt to reflect the experiences of people in such relationships.
> “The most important thing is that it’s not a retread of the original
> Helen and Rob story,” said Howe. “She’s a very different Helen and
> will be dealing with it in a different way. We want to get into
> Helen’s headspace, and Rob’s headspace. We don’t want to make him a
> two-dimensional villain.”
> The plot may draw parallels with Happy Valley, the BBC1 police drama
> by former Archers’ writer Sally Wainwright. In that series police
> officer Catherine Cawood tries to keep her grandson Ryan away from his
> murderer and rapist father.
> Louiza Patikas has played Helen since 2000, during which time she has
> also dealt with anorexia and faced the suicide of her gamekeeper
> boyfriend. The series of events led to her being nicknamed the
> “unluckiest woman in Ambridge”.
> The Rob storyline triggered nationwide debate about a previously taboo
> subject, and was praised in parliament and by Baroness Hale, the
> former president of the Supreme Court, for drawing attention to the
> insidious nature of coercive control.
> With about four million listeners every day, The Archers is also the
> BBC’s most-played on-demand radio show.

Thanks for that, Vicky. I found it an interesting read - once I had managed to parse some of the more unintelligible language constructions. Honestly!(1) Doesn't the Sunday Times employ sub-editors any more? Honestly!(2) Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?

Nick
nickodell49@yahoo.ca

In message <c71a0976-5eb3-4b30-b912-4b2eb6d73d05n@googlegroups.com> at
Sun, 11 Jun 2023 12:52:44, Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> writes
>On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 12:23:270 >> Spoiler.
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>>
>> The Sunday Times
>> Sunday June 11 2023
[]
>Thanks for that, Vicky. I found it an interesting read - once I had
>managed to parse some of the more unintelligible language
>constructions. Honestly!(1) Doesn't the Sunday Times employ
>sub-editors any more? Honestly!(2) Couldn't the paper have employed a
>writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
>
>Nick
>nickodell49@yahoo.ca

Exactly my reaction: yes, thanks Vicky, I found it interesting, but I
too found the English heavy-going - for example "In that series police
officer Catherine Cawood tries to keep her grandson Ryan away from his
murderer and rapist father." Took me a while to figure out how you keep
someone away from his murderer.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Knowledge isnt elitist - that's rubbish! Why are we embarrassed by the idea
that people know things? It's not a conspiracy against the ignorant. Knowing
things is good!" - Jeremy Paxman, RT 14-20 August 2010

On 11-Jun-23 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:

<snip>

> Thanks for that, Vicky. I found it an interesting read - once I had managed to parse some of the more unintelligible language constructions. Honestly!(1) Doesn't the Sunday Times employ sub-editors any more? Honestly!(2) Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?

All you have to do Nick, is to get into the author's headspace.
All should then become clear.

--
Sam Plusnet

Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 12:23:27 PM UTC, Vicky wrote:
>> Spoiler.
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>> v
>>
>> The Sunday Times
>> Sunday June 11 2023
>> He is back. Rob Titchener returns to The Archers on Friday to reignite
>> one of the rural drama’s most gripping stories in recent years.
>> It is almost seven years since he was last seen in Ambridge at the
>> centre of a domestic abuse plotline in which he tormented his wife,
>> Helen Archer. Pregnant with their first child, she stabbed Rob in
>> 2016. It was the culmination of three years of coercive control in
>> which he sought to undermine her.
>> Her brother, Tom, noticed bruising on her wrists. Rob stopped her from
>> driving after she had a car accident and tried to get her older son,
>> Henry — born via a sperm donor before she met Rob — sent to boarding
>> school behind her back. When Helen eventually told her husband that
>> she was leaving him, he told her that the only way she could do so
>> would be to kill him. She then stabbed him.
>> “In The Archers, much like everyone’s lives, they all have a backstory
>> and their past never really goes away,” said Jeremy Howe, the Radio 4
>> drama’s editor. “A seven-year gap seemed, to me, to be the right kind
>> of timespan to revisit Rob.”
>> Howe said he had always planned to bring back Rob from exile in
>> America, and was waiting for the right time. Helen is now living with
>> Lee Bryce, a physiotherapist and karate teacher played by Ryan Early,
>> with Jack, the child she had with Rob, who is now seven, and Henry,
>> 12.
>> “Since then she’s reforged her life: she’s got her business back on
>> track, she’s fallen in love, she’s got two boys. But I can’t believe
>> that, as someone who went through the intense trauma that she went
>> through, that she will have forgotten it,” said Howe. “It’s part of
>> her DNA now, and it’s unfinished business.”
>> There have been hints in recent episodes that Rob, played by Timothy
>> Watson, would return to the show. A police officer came to tell Helen
>> her ex-husband was back in the country, ostensibly for the funeral of
>> his mother, Ursula. It was, said Howe, like “dropping a depth charge”.
>> The original plan, under the previous editor, Sean O’Connor, had been
>> for Helen to kill Rob. However, he was kept alive because it would be
>> more dramatic if he were in court and it opened up the prospect of him
>> returning.
>> She gave birth to Jack — whom her ex-husband calls Gideon Titchener —
>> while she was in prison on remand. Jurors at her trial, played by
>> guest stars including Catherine Tate, found she had acted in
>> self-defence after months of physical and mental abuse, as well as the
>> need to protect Henry, who witnessed the attack. Rob lost a subsequent
>> custody battle.
>> Writers on the show researched the topic for months and spoke to
>> Women’s Aid, the NSPCC, psychologists, doctors and police officers in
>> an attempt to reflect the experiences of people in such relationships.
>> “The most important thing is that it’s not a retread of the original
>> Helen and Rob story,” said Howe. “She’s a very different Helen and
>> will be dealing with it in a different way. We want to get into
>> Helen’s headspace, and Rob’s headspace. We don’t want to make him a
>> two-dimensional villain.”
>> The plot may draw parallels with Happy Valley, the BBC1 police drama
>> by former Archers’ writer Sally Wainwright. In that series police
>> officer Catherine Cawood tries to keep her grandson Ryan away from his
>> murderer and rapist father.
>> Louiza Patikas has played Helen since 2000, during which time she has
>> also dealt with anorexia and faced the suicide of her gamekeeper
>> boyfriend. The series of events led to her being nicknamed the
>> “unluckiest woman in Ambridge”.
>> The Rob storyline triggered nationwide debate about a previously taboo
>> subject, and was praised in parliament and by Baroness Hale, the
>> former president of the Supreme Court, for drawing attention to the
>> insidious nature of coercive control.
>> With about four million listeners every day, The Archers is also the
>> BBC’s most-played on-demand radio show.
>
> Thanks for that, Vicky. I found it an interesting read - once I had
> managed to parse some of the more unintelligible language constructions.
> Honestly!(1) Doesn't the Sunday Times employ sub-editors any more?
> Honestly!(2) Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands
> English like what she is spoke?
>
> Nick
> nickodell49@yahoo.ca
>

Surprised it’s still 4m listeners

Mrs McT

On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
> Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?

In a similar vein ...

I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.

(1) Another one is that parcels correctly addressed to No 9 be delivered
to No 9, not left outside No 5 during a torrential downpour (and yes,
both houses are clearly numbered, as is No 7 in between) but that's
another story.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 9:34:59 PM UTC, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 11-Jun-23 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Thanks for that, Vicky. I found it an interesting read - once I had managed to parse some of the more unintelligible language constructions. Honestly!(1) Doesn't the Sunday Times employ sub-editors any more? Honestly!(2) Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
> All you have to do Nick, is to get into the author's headspace.
> All should then become clear.

Author's headspace? Yes, I know you copied it from the article but you might as well have written in Welsh for all the sense it made to me.

Talking of which. following the car-park ruling[1], will you and otherats over the border now be required to post bilingually to umra?

Nick
nickodell49@yahoo.ca
[1]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61409004

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 1:42:01 PM UTC, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
> > Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
> In a similar vein ...
>
> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.
>
> (1) Another one is that parcels correctly addressed to No 9 be delivered
> to No 9, not left outside No 5 during a torrential downpour (and yes,
> both houses are clearly numbered, as is No 7 in between) but that's
> another story.
>
Oh. I thought you were about to say that the parcel had been left, up-side down, outside No.6

Nick
nickodell49@yahoo.ca

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 1:42:01 PM UTC, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
> > Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
> In a similar vein ...
>
> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.

I find the business of understanding English dialects fascinating and wondered if any studies have been done? Are people who speak with a certain dialect more likely to understand somebody who speaks with another? For instance, I more or less speak RP: does that give me a head start in understanding more other people from across the anglophone community? Or does it make it more likely that I'd understand certain dialects but have difficulties with others? Would an Indian speaker of English comprehend a wider range of English speakers, perhaps?

Many years ago, I moved from the family home in coastal Essex (East-Enders-on-Sea) into digs in a deeply rural part of the county just thirty miles further inland. My landlord and landlady were lovely people and we stayed friends for many more years but I swear that for about two weeks after I moved in I just couldn't tune myself into their accent and understand what they were saying.

Then there's Neil Nunes. I never had any trouble understanding what he says though I remember something of a kerfuffle when he first appeared as a continuity announcer on Radio 4. On the other hand, Victoria Coach Station used to employ a West Indian announcer and I could never understand a word that he said. But might that West Indian announcer have been intelligible to a wider range of English speakers from around the world and I'm just the minority who can't understand? Might the Chinese Amazon lady be intelligible to a wider range of their customers than somebody with a different dialect?

Nick
nickodell49@yahoo.ca

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT), Nick Odell
<nickodell@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 1:42:01?PM UTC, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>> > Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
>> In a similar vein ...
>>
>> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
>> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
>> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
>> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
>> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
>> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
>> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
>> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
>> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
>> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.
>
>I find the business of understanding English dialects fascinating and wondered if any studies have been done? Are people who speak with a certain dialect more likely to understand somebody who speaks with another? For instance, I more or less speak RP: does that give me a head start in understanding more other people from across the anglophone community? Or does it make it more likely that I'd understand certain dialects but have difficulties with others? Would an Indian speaker of English comprehend a wider range of English speakers, perhaps?
>
>Many years ago, I moved from the family home in coastal Essex (East-Enders-on-Sea) into digs in a deeply rural part of the county just thirty miles further inland. My landlord and landlady were lovely people and we stayed friends for many more years but I swear that for about two weeks after I moved in I just couldn't tune myself into their accent and understand what they were saying.
>
>Then there's Neil Nunes. I never had any trouble understanding what he says though I remember something of a kerfuffle when he first appeared as a continuity announcer on Radio 4. On the other hand, Victoria Coach Station used to employ a West Indian announcer and I could never understand a word that he said. But might that West Indian announcer have been intelligible to a wider range of English speakers from around the world and I'm just the minority who can't understand? Might the Chinese Amazon lady be intelligible to a wider range of their customers than somebody with a different dialect?
>
>Nick
>nickodell49@yahoo.ca

I have tropuble too understanding some customer service people. My
hearing is deteriorating and I hate having to phone. I prefer email
contact as then I have the solution in wroting but many places insist
on a phone call instead. I tell them my hearing is bad and say please
speak very slowly and clearly. Not all do.

I, topo speak RP and as much of my early teaching was to speakers of
second languages, teaching them English, am used to accents. I
struggle more now. I was worried about Neil Nunes but he is fine to
understand. Many, even R4 or WS presenters or news readers, are not.
Some Scots are easy and some not. It might be Glaswegians are not.
Some West coasters are.

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 14:41:58 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
a gribouillé dans la poussière...

>I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
>that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
>statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
>she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
>quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
>origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
>for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
>say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
>please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
>that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.

I got so fed up with poor customer service from Sky (or was it BT -
possibly both) that I took to phoning them in the evening when the customer
service line was out sourced to India. The great advantage being, the
Indian person would send an email to sum up our conversation and say what
they had done. When they sent me a letter to say I owed them money (because
I had not cancelled the contract I never wanted - it was free for first 6
months) I could demonstrate the date and time I cancelled with the email
I'd received. I don't recall having any problem understanding the people I
spoke to.

OTOH, I was pursued by their 'you owe us' department for several months,
while the 'sorry for the inconvenience' department would send me a letter
in the same post to apologise and agree I didn't owe them anything. Shame
the two departments, probably both in Scotland, didn't understand each
other :(

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 08:37:36 -0700 (PDT), Nick Odell
<nickodell@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 1:42:01?PM UTC, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>> > Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
>> In a similar vein ...
>>
>> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
>> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
>> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
>> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
>> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
>> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
>> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
>> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
>> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
>> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.
>>
>> (1) Another one is that parcels correctly addressed to No 9 be delivered
>> to No 9, not left outside No 5 during a torrential downpour (and yes,
>> both houses are clearly numbered, as is No 7 in between) but that's
>> another story.
>>
>Oh. I thought you were about to say that the parcel had been left, up-side down, outside No.6
>
>Nick
>nickodell49@yahoo.ca

We live at #12/ We get mail for Flat 1, 2 xxx rd.

On 12/06/2023 17:00, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 1:42:01 PM UTC, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>>> Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
>> In a similar vein ...
>>
>> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
>> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
>> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
>> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
>> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
>> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
>> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
>> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
>> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
>> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.
>
> I find the business of understanding English dialects fascinating and wondered if any studies have been done? Are people who speak with a certain dialect more likely to understand somebody who speaks with another? For instance, I more or less speak RP: does that give me a head start in understanding more other people from across the anglophone community? Or does it make it more likely that I'd understand certain dialects but have difficulties with others? Would an Indian speaker of English comprehend a wider range of English speakers, perhaps?
>
> Many years ago, I moved from the family home in coastal Essex (East-Enders-on-Sea) into digs in a deeply rural part of the county just thirty miles further inland. My landlord and landlady were lovely people and we stayed friends for many more years but I swear that for about two weeks after I moved in I just couldn't tune myself into their accent and understand what they were saying.
>
> Then there's Neil Nunes. I never had any trouble understanding what he says though I remember something of a kerfuffle when he first appeared as a continuity announcer on Radio 4. On the other hand, Victoria Coach Station used to employ a West Indian announcer and I could never understand a word that he said. But might that West Indian announcer have been intelligible to a wider range of English speakers from around the world and I'm just the minority who can't understand? Might the Chinese Amazon lady be intelligible to a wider range of their customers than somebody with a different dialect?
>
> Nick
> nickodell49@yahoo.ca

"t is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some
other Englishman hate or despise him." Pygmalion, GBS

john

Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 12:23:27 PM UTC, Vicky wrote:
>>> Spoiler.
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>> v
>>>
>>> The Sunday Times
>>> Sunday June 11 2023
>>> He is back. Rob Titchener returns to The Archers on Friday to reignite
>>> one of the rural drama’s most gripping stories in recent years.
>>> It is almost seven years since he was last seen in Ambridge at the
>>> centre of a domestic abuse plotline in which he tormented his wife,
>>> Helen Archer. Pregnant with their first child, she stabbed Rob in
>>> 2016. It was the culmination of three years of coercive control in
>>> which he sought to undermine her.
>>> Her brother, Tom, noticed bruising on her wrists. Rob stopped her from
>>> driving after she had a car accident and tried to get her older son,
>>> Henry — born via a sperm donor before she met Rob — sent to boarding
>>> school behind her back. When Helen eventually told her husband that
>>> she was leaving him, he told her that the only way she could do so
>>> would be to kill him. She then stabbed him.
>>> “In The Archers, much like everyone’s lives, they all have a backstory
>>> and their past never really goes away,” said Jeremy Howe, the Radio 4
>>> drama’s editor. “A seven-year gap seemed, to me, to be the right kind
>>> of timespan to revisit Rob.”
>>> Howe said he had always planned to bring back Rob from exile in
>>> America, and was waiting for the right time. Helen is now living with
>>> Lee Bryce, a physiotherapist and karate teacher played by Ryan Early,
>>> with Jack, the child she had with Rob, who is now seven, and Henry,
>>> 12.
>>> “Since then she’s reforged her life: she’s got her business back on
>>> track, she’s fallen in love, she’s got two boys. But I can’t believe
>>> that, as someone who went through the intense trauma that she went
>>> through, that she will have forgotten it,” said Howe. “It’s part of
>>> her DNA now, and it’s unfinished business.”
>>> There have been hints in recent episodes that Rob, played by Timothy
>>> Watson, would return to the show. A police officer came to tell Helen
>>> her ex-husband was back in the country, ostensibly for the funeral of
>>> his mother, Ursula. It was, said Howe, like “dropping a depth charge”.
>>> The original plan, under the previous editor, Sean O’Connor, had been
>>> for Helen to kill Rob. However, he was kept alive because it would be
>>> more dramatic if he were in court and it opened up the prospect of him
>>> returning.
>>> She gave birth to Jack — whom her ex-husband calls Gideon Titchener —
>>> while she was in prison on remand. Jurors at her trial, played by
>>> guest stars including Catherine Tate, found she had acted in
>>> self-defence after months of physical and mental abuse, as well as the
>>> need to protect Henry, who witnessed the attack. Rob lost a subsequent
>>> custody battle.
>>> Writers on the show researched the topic for months and spoke to
>>> Women’s Aid, the NSPCC, psychologists, doctors and police officers in
>>> an attempt to reflect the experiences of people in such relationships.
>>> “The most important thing is that it’s not a retread of the original
>>> Helen and Rob story,” said Howe. “She’s a very different Helen and
>>> will be dealing with it in a different way. We want to get into
>>> Helen’s headspace, and Rob’s headspace. We don’t want to make him a
>>> two-dimensional villain.”
>>> The plot may draw parallels with Happy Valley, the BBC1 police drama
>>> by former Archers’ writer Sally Wainwright. In that series police
>>> officer Catherine Cawood tries to keep her grandson Ryan away from his
>>> murderer and rapist father.
>>> Louiza Patikas has played Helen since 2000, during which time she has
>>> also dealt with anorexia and faced the suicide of her gamekeeper
>>> boyfriend. The series of events led to her being nicknamed the
>>> “unluckiest woman in Ambridge”.
>>> The Rob storyline triggered nationwide debate about a previously taboo
>>> subject, and was praised in parliament and by Baroness Hale, the
>>> former president of the Supreme Court, for drawing attention to the
>>> insidious nature of coercive control.
>>> With about four million listeners every day, The Archers is also the
>>> BBC’s most-played on-demand radio show.
>>
>> Thanks for that, Vicky. I found it an interesting read - once I had
>> managed to parse some of the more unintelligible language constructions.
>> Honestly!(1) Doesn't the Sunday Times employ sub-editors any more?
>> Honestly!(2) Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands
>> English like what she is spoke?
>>
>> Nick
>> nickodell49@yahoo.ca
>>
>
> Surprised it’s still 4m listeners
>
> Mrs McT
>
>

From the Bl**dy trailer I heard on R4 today - they are flogging the Rob - a
- thon line again GRRRRRRR (All the more reason to carry on carrying on
without listening!)

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>> Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
>
> In a similar vein ...
>
> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.
>
> (1) Another one is that parcels correctly addressed to No 9 be delivered
> to No 9, not left outside No 5 during a torrential downpour (and yes,
> both houses are clearly numbered, as is No 7 in between) but that's
> another story.
>

I have come to the conclusion that comprehension of the speaker when they
contact you is only 0.00000000000001% of the overall requirement. Like you
Jenny, I frequently have to stop them to ask for
clarity.Arrrrrrrrgggggghhhh!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT), Nick Odell
<nickodell@bigfoot.com> a gribouillé dans la poussière...

>I find the business of understanding English dialects fascinating and wondered if any studies have been done? Are people who speak with a certain dialect more likely to understand somebody who speaks with another? For instance, I more or less speak RP: does that give me a head start in understanding more other people from across the anglophone community?

That may depend upon how much BBC radio you heard in your youth.

>Or does it make it more likely that I'd understand certain dialects but have difficulties with others? Would an Indian speaker of English comprehend a wider range of English speakers, perhaps?

That may be a matter of age.

>Many years ago, I moved from the family home in coastal Essex (East-Enders-on-Sea) into digs in a deeply rural part of the county just thirty miles further inland. My landlord and landlady were lovely people and we stayed friends for many more years but I swear that for about two weeks after I moved in I just couldn't tune myself into their accent and understand what they were saying.

Ah, yes, rural Essex is a different country altogether. More like
Suffolk/Norfolk, where nobody goes anywhere, they always goo. They didn't
talk like that in my grammar school, just across the border in
Hertfordshire, or in college in Harlow.

>Then there's Neil Nunes. I never had any trouble understanding what he says though I remember something of a kerfuffle when he first appeared as a continuity announcer on Radio 4.

It took me a while to tune in to him, I think his accent or speech patterns
have changed a bit over the years - or my fine-tuning has kicked in.

I was very confused when Viji Alles joined the team of announcers on R4. I
still confuse him with Mr Nunes at times.

Many years ago, while staying with some Scots (in Scotland), Billy Connolly
cropped up in the conversation and the youngest of the family were amazed
to learn we could understand anything he said. We'd never had any problem
with him, but he may have adjusted his speech a bit before appearing on
national TV.

Much more recently, the first responder who showed up to assess my before
the ambiwlans appeared, had a strong accent. I asked where he was from and
he said Bolton. Most of the time I could understand everything he said. Now
and then he obviously slipped into his 'natural' accent, which might as
well have been Greek.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 1:42:01 PM UTC, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>>> Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like
>>> what she is spoke?
>> In a similar vein ...
>>
>> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
>> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
>> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
>> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
>> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
>> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
>> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
>> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
>> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
>> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.
>
> I find the business of understanding English dialects fascinating and
> wondered if any studies have been done? Are people who speak with a
> certain dialect more likely to understand somebody who speaks with
> another? For instance, I more or less speak RP: does that give me a head
> start in understanding more other people from across the anglophone
> community? Or does it make it more likely that I'd understand certain
> dialects but have difficulties with others? Would an Indian speaker of
> English comprehend a wider range of English speakers, perhaps?
>
> Many years ago, I moved from the family home in coastal Essex
> (East-Enders-on-Sea) into digs in a deeply rural part of the county just
> thirty miles further inland. My landlord and landlady were lovely people
> and we stayed friends for many more years but I swear that for about two
> weeks after I moved in I just couldn't tune myself into their accent and
> understand what they were saying.
>
> Then there's Neil Nunes. I never had any trouble understanding what he
> says though I remember something of a kerfuffle when he first appeared as
> a continuity announcer on Radio 4. On the other hand, Victoria Coach
> Station used to employ a West Indian announcer and I could never
> understand a word that he said. But might that West Indian announcer
> have been intelligible to a wider range of English speakers from around
> the world and I'm just the minority who can't understand? Might the
> Chinese Amazon lady be intelligible to a wider range of their customers
> than somebody with a different dialect?
>
> Nick
> nickodell49@yahoo.ca
>

I think that large organisation such as Amazon should be employing
representatives with the ability to speak clearly in the main or native
language of any given country they are working with - if they cannot
communicate clearly in that language, then perhaps the database needs
updating to indicate where the customer is geographically and I feel sure
that there would be room in the individuals profile for them to specify
their preferred language when being contacted. I think I speak RP (maybe
with a very slight West Country accent) clearly and have reasonable command
of English and can communicate in this language quite well - I see no
reason for representatives to speak to me in poor broken English.

I heard some time back that a survey was carried out to establish
preferences when speaking to a person on a help line and that those with a
Newcastle accent were preferred by many and that the voice was felt to be
friendly, helpful, sympathetic and non-combative in difficult times.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 12-Jun-23 16:34, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 9:34:59 PM UTC, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 11-Jun-23 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Thanks for that, Vicky. I found it an interesting read - once I had managed to parse some of the more unintelligible language constructions. Honestly!(1) Doesn't the Sunday Times employ sub-editors any more? Honestly!(2) Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
>> All you have to do Nick, is to get into the author's headspace.
>> All should then become clear.
>
> Author's headspace? Yes, I know you copied it from the article but you might as well have written in Welsh for all the sense it made to me.
>
> Talking of which. following the car-park ruling[1], will you and otherats over the border now be required to post bilingually to umra?
>

I thought that was what you just accused me of doing?

In fact... Yes. All posts originating from Wales will have to be
either in Welsh, or bilingual.

They must also be posted at 20mph or less. (fewer?)

--
Sam Plusnet

On 12-Jun-23 18:05, Mike McMillan wrote:
> Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/06/2023 20:52, Nick Odell wrote:
>>> Couldn't the paper have employed a writer what understands English like what she is spoke?
>>
>> In a similar vein ...
>>
>> I had to contact Amazon Customer Support recently because I was told
>> that a video order had failed but the debit appeared on my bank
>> statement. I am sure the lady who spoke to me was utterly charming and
>> she was extremely helpful in that she got the amount credited to me very
>> quickly, BUT she was possibly of Chinese (or maybe other similar area)
>> origin and her non-English accent was so strong it was almost impossible
>> for me to understand a word she said. It was very embarrassing have to
>> say repeatedly "I'm sorry, I didn't get that" or "can you repeat that,
>> please". Surely one of the first essentials of Customer Service (1) is
>> that the Customer and the Servicer can understand each other.
>>
>> (1) Another one is that parcels correctly addressed to No 9 be delivered
>> to No 9, not left outside No 5 during a torrential downpour (and yes,
>> both houses are clearly numbered, as is No 7 in between) but that's
>> another story.
>>
>
> I have come to the conclusion that comprehension of the speaker when they
> contact you is only 0.00000000000001% of the overall requirement. Like you
> Jenny, I frequently have to stop them to ask for
> clarity.Arrrrrrrrgggggghhhh!
>
Wofe was in this position earlier today when trying to resolve some
problem with her mobile.

The 'call centre accent' thing is _not_ helped by the:

"You must answer and resolve X calls per hour, or we will get rid of you"

system those poor people suffer under.

Speaking clearly, and speaking quickly, are not often compatible.

--
Sam Plusnet

In message <a8ie8ipoe14lq7fu57debc86g42ugegq08@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Jun
2023 17:38:33, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> writes
[]
>I, topo speak RP and as much of my early teaching was to speakers of
>second languages, teaching them English, am used to accents. I

My Mum used to TEFL (quite a nice symmetry; Dad taught the English
German, and Mum taught the Germans English). I could never tell as to
me, they all spoke English with an almost comically strong German accent
(and were rather hurt if you told them so), but others told me that my
mum's students spoke English with a Geordie accent (my mum had that
slightly, or more so if she'd been on the 'phone to _her_ mum).

>struggle more now. I was worried about Neil Nunes but he is fine to
>understand. Many, even R4 or WS presenters or news readers, are not.
>Some Scots are easy and some not. It might be Glaswegians are not.
>Some West coasters are.

Well before YouTube, there used to be a clip of someone - I'm pretty
sure he was Glaswegian - that came up whenever the subject was
discussed; he spoke volubly and rapidly, and most people could not
understand him. The only thing I could make out from his speech was the
word "Strabane" (a placename I think), which he repeated often.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old soldiers never die - only young ones

In message <ugie8ip6m9aa40b3odc9pbti53ml950d4g@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Jun
2023 18:17:41, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> writes
>On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT), Nick Odell
><nickodell@bigfoot.com> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
[]
>>Then there's Neil Nunes. I never had any trouble understanding what
>>he says though I remember something of a kerfuffle when he first
>>appeared as a continuity announcer on Radio 4.
>
>It took me a while to tune in to him, I think his accent or speech patterns
>have changed a bit over the years - or my fine-tuning has kicked in.
>
>I was very confused when Viji Alles joined the team of announcers on R4. I
>still confuse him with Mr Nunes at times.

There's one announcer I always think of as having a lovely
chocolate-brown accent. (That's probably not PC these days, but I mean
no harm by it.) Not sure if it is Jamaican? Always sounds so warm and
friendly to me. Could be Mr. Nunes?
>
>Many years ago, while staying with some Scots (in Scotland), Billy Connolly
>cropped up in the conversation and the youngest of the family were amazed
>to learn we could understand anything he said. We'd never had any problem
>with him, but he may have adjusted his speech a bit before appearing on
>national TV.

Interesting that it was _Scots_ you were with who had difficulty
understanding him.

You must have seen the NTNOC'N sketch with Pammy - doing her best Janet
Street-Porter imitation - "interviewing" him, and clearly not getting a
word - and him not understanding her either. (I always thought it was
rather sweet that those two ended up together, as I admired them both
[though would probably be afraid of her in person, as I understand she's
a high-powered psychiatrist, like Susan's best friend].)
>
>Much more recently, the first responder who showed up to assess my before

Always best to get your before assessed.

>the ambiwlans appeared, had a strong accent. I asked where he was from and
>he said Bolton. Most of the time I could understand everything he said. Now
>and then he obviously slipped into his 'natural' accent, which might as
>well have been Greek.
>
>
My favourite memory of an incomprehensibility was a friendly older
Geordie lady I met at the Haymarket 'bus station in Newcastle; she
clearly wanted to chat, but I genuinely didn't understand a word she
said. But I just made the appropriate grunt or yes at what seemed like
the right points, and she seemed perfectly happy! I'm normally OK with
Geordie: last time an American cousin was staying here doing genealogy,
we met an old miner in Bedlington Station library, and he and I chatted
away - and she told me afterwards she only got about a third of what
he'd been saying. (I wish she'd said something, as I'd have been happy
to clarify.) Maybe it has regionalities - I'm familiar with the
Bedlington version. (I know further up into the wilds, it's softer, more
like some versions of Scottish.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old soldiers never die - only young ones

In message <u67k1n$362qn$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:18:47,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
[]
>I heard some time back that a survey was carried out to establish
>preferences when speaking to a person on a help line and that those with a
>Newcastle accent were preferred by many and that the voice was felt to be
>friendly, helpful, sympathetic and non-combative in difficult times.
>
Yes, I heard that too; I'd always felt Geordie was warm, friendly, and
sympathetic, but I'd dismissed it because it was just my (maternal)
background; I was pleased to find others found the same too. I think
there is a Scottish accent too that is liked/trusted. (When I call my
bank - First Direct [part of Midland, but the first big one to do
telephone banking before it was common] - I often get a Scottish lady
[might be one of several similar, of course] who I enjoy speaking to.)

(My Dad's from the Nottingham area; I'm not aware of having any feeling
about that accent. Maybe he didn't speak with it.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old soldiers never die - only young ones

In message <$wbpUAVgx5hkFwWK@255soft.uk> at Mon, 12 Jun 2023 23:29:52,
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes
[]
>there is a Scottish accent too that is liked/trusted. (When I call my
>bank - First Direct [part of Midland, but the first big one to do
>telephone banking before it was common] - I often get a Scottish lady
>[might be one of several similar, of course] who I enjoy speaking to.)
[]
Oops - it's part of HSBC of course! (It _was_ part of Midland when I
joined it.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of
them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for
science intact. - Carl Sagan (interview w. Psychology Today published '96-1-1)