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aus+uk / uk.comp.sys.mac / Effect of sleep on network connections

SubjectAuthor
* Effect of sleep on network connectionsTimS
+- Effect of sleep on network connectionsDavid Brooks
+* Effect of sleep on network connectionsGraham J
|`* Effect of sleep on network connectionsnospam
| `* Effect of sleep on network connectionsJaimie Vandenbergh
|  `- Effect of sleep on network connectionsTheo
`- Effect of sleep on network connectionsBruce Horrocks

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Effect of sleep on network connections

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From: tim@streater.me.uk (TimS)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Effect of sleep on network connections
Date: 20 Jun 2023 18:23:31 GMT
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 by: TimS - Tue, 20 Jun 2023 18:23 UTC

Today I discovered the value of testing on real hardware. I have an app that I
develop for macOS/Win/Lin, but in the case of Win/Lin, I've been testing using
VirtualBox VMs. Today I took advantage of having access to a real Windows
machine (runnng Windows 11), and so did some testing on that. Which worked
fine until I put the machine to sleep, whereupon it force-closed a TCP
connection I had open. This connection is from one part of the app to another
(actually to an object running an HTML renderer and javascript; the connection
is internal to the app and uses websockets).

The point is that the app opens the connection as it starts and it's supposed
to stay open until the app quits. This has worked perfectly well under macOS,
with my mac being asleep not being a problem. By contrast, the instant the
Win-11 machine went to sleep, the TCP connection was closed.

Anyone know if there are some fundamental differences in the way macOS vs.
Windows handle sleep? I can't test this in the VM, it seems; Windows seems to
know it's running in a VM and doesn't offer sleep, at all.

--
Tim

Re: Effect of sleep on network connections

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From: DavidB@nomail.afraid.org (David Brooks)
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 by: David Brooks - Tue, 20 Jun 2023 18:31 UTC

On 20/06/2023 19:23, TimS wrote:
> Today I discovered the value of testing on real hardware. I have an app that I
> develop for macOS/Win/Lin, but in the case of Win/Lin, I've been testing using
> VirtualBox VMs. Today I took advantage of having access to a real Windows
> machine (runnng Windows 11), and so did some testing on that. Which worked
> fine until I put the machine to sleep, whereupon it force-closed a TCP
> connection I had open. This connection is from one part of the app to another
> (actually to an object running an HTML renderer and javascript; the connection
> is internal to the app and uses websockets).
>
> The point is that the app opens the connection as it starts and it's supposed
> to stay open until the app quits. This has worked perfectly well under macOS,
> with my mac being asleep not being a problem. By contrast, the instant the
> Win-11 machine went to sleep, the TCP connection was closed.
>
> Anyone know if there are some fundamental differences in the way macOS vs.
> Windows handle sleep? I can't test this in the VM, it seems; Windows seems to
> know it's running in a VM and doesn't offer sleep, at all.

Read here, Tims!

https://chat.openai.com/share/e13d6da5-6c61-4fc5-864d-1f98a15c3180

AI answers your question! ;-)

HTH

--
David B.

Re: Effect of sleep on network connections

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From: nobody@nowhere.co.uk (Graham J)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Effect of sleep on network connections
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 21:10:35 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <kfe953FtlsoU1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Graham J - Tue, 20 Jun 2023 20:10 UTC

TimS wrote:
> Today I discovered the value of testing on real hardware. I have an app that I
> develop for macOS/Win/Lin, but in the case of Win/Lin, I've been testing using
> VirtualBox VMs. Today I took advantage of having access to a real Windows
> machine (runnng Windows 11), and so did some testing on that. Which worked
> fine until I put the machine to sleep, whereupon it force-closed a TCP
> connection I had open. This connection is from one part of the app to another
> (actually to an object running an HTML renderer and javascript; the connection
> is internal to the app and uses websockets).
>
> The point is that the app opens the connection as it starts and it's supposed
> to stay open until the app quits. This has worked perfectly well under macOS,
> with my mac being asleep not being a problem. By contrast, the instant the
> Win-11 machine went to sleep, the TCP connection was closed.
>
> Anyone know if there are some fundamental differences in the way macOS vs.
> Windows handle sleep? I can't test this in the VM, it seems; Windows seems to
> know it's running in a VM and doesn't offer sleep, at all.

I suspect Windows can be configurd to "stay awake" if there is a live
TCP connection, despite all other conditions telling it to sleep. See:

<https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/ie/en-US/784f203d-0103-4272-8884-e4d4834b11db/sleep-blocked-by-active-remote-client?forum=w7itprogeneral>

.... for some discussion.

It isn't the same as the way a Mac would perform - I don't think a Mac
sleeps so "deeply" as a windows PC. And I think I've read somewhere
that an Apple router (Airport?) will reply on behalf of a sleeping Mac
so as to deceive an app on another part of the LAN that its connection
is still live - possibly by replying to ping.

--
Graham J

Re: Effect of sleep on network connections

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From: 07.013@scorecrow.com (Bruce Horrocks)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Effect of sleep on network connections
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 by: Bruce Horrocks - Tue, 20 Jun 2023 20:45 UTC

On 20/06/2023 19:23, TimS wrote:
> Today I discovered the value of testing on real hardware. I have an app that I
> develop for macOS/Win/Lin, but in the case of Win/Lin, I've been testing using
> VirtualBox VMs. Today I took advantage of having access to a real Windows
> machine (runnng Windows 11), and so did some testing on that. Which worked
> fine until I put the machine to sleep, whereupon it force-closed a TCP
> connection I had open. This connection is from one part of the app to another
> (actually to an object running an HTML renderer and javascript; the connection
> is internal to the app and uses websockets).
>
> The point is that the app opens the connection as it starts and it's supposed
> to stay open until the app quits. This has worked perfectly well under macOS,
> with my mac being asleep not being a problem. By contrast, the instant the
> Win-11 machine went to sleep, the TCP connection was closed.
>
> Anyone know if there are some fundamental differences in the way macOS vs.
> Windows handle sleep?

No idea.

> I can't test this in the VM, it seems; Windows seems to
> know it's running in a VM and doesn't offer sleep, at all.

Windows 10 Pro under VMware still offers a sleep option so you could try
switching to VMware?

--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey, England

Re: Effect of sleep on network connections

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Subject: Re: Effect of sleep on network connections
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 by: nospam - Tue, 20 Jun 2023 21:07 UTC

In article <u6t144$2hdof$1@dont-email.me>, Graham J
<nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

> And I think I've read somewhere
> that an Apple router (Airport?) will reply on behalf of a sleeping Mac
> so as to deceive an app on another part of the LAN that its connection
> is still live - possibly by replying to ping.

that was back to my mac, which is no longer supported.

Re: Effect of sleep on network connections

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From: jaimie@usually.sessile.org (Jaimie Vandenbergh)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Effect of sleep on network connections
Date: 21 Jun 2023 12:19:12 GMT
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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:19 UTC

On 20 Jun 2023 at 22:07:22 BST, "nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <u6t144$2hdof$1@dont-email.me>, Graham J
> <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> And I think I've read somewhere
>> that an Apple router (Airport?) will reply on behalf of a sleeping Mac
>> so as to deceive an app on another part of the LAN that its connection
>> is still live - possibly by replying to ping.
>
> that was back to my mac, which is no longer supported.

Also for ICMP pings - and AFP shares, but they've gone the way of the
dodo like bttm. Shame. I'm still bemused that Apple got out of the home
router/wifi market, it's a clear and obvious way to add pleasant-lockin
features.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.
-- J R R Tolkien

Re: Effect of sleep on network connections

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Effect of sleep on network connections
Date: 21 Jun 2023 16:47:35 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Wed, 21 Jun 2023 15:47 UTC

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
> Also for ICMP pings - and AFP shares, but they've gone the way of the
> dodo like bttm. Shame. I'm still bemused that Apple got out of the home
> router/wifi market, it's a clear and obvious way to add pleasant-lockin
> features.

I'm not surprised. Most people now get routers from their ISP, and the
headache trying to set up your own router (with whatever way to get config
from the ISP they use) is not worth the hassle TBH. Plus you would lose
features like built in VOIP (necessary for 'digital voice' products in the
UK) and the ability of the ISP to diagnose problems.

Mesh networking behind the router is a separate market and there *might* be
some scope for Apple to play in it, but it's hard to see what they would
add. Anyway, those products are also being strongly pushed by ISPs.

Basically the DIY router market is getting squeezed because the ISP provided
ones are 'good enough' for a lot of people.

For other features, there's already Apple TV and Homepod.

Theo

aus+uk / uk.comp.sys.mac / Effect of sleep on network connections

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