Are they all shite or is it just the ones on snazzy Kawasakis?

Thought I would investigate why the CB250RS front brake feels a bit
wooden cf. the Morini.

Sliding caliper setup so all kinds of options for unimpressive
performance. Mind you, at the start of the first decent run I did grab
it hard enough to nearly lose the front. According to Dave at Magnum the
Metzeler 77s are from 2001.

Not available in S rating now apparently or ME22s in the right sizes so
Mitas S rated going on. The Mitas rubber on the Gilera 175 seems fine.

Anyway, the Haynes BoL says withdraw the retaining pins to get the pads
(which have plenty of meat) out with the caliper in situ. In my dreams.
After some tugging, I suspect they would have to be driven out and
that's not going to happen unless I get the caliper off completely and
on the workbench. Same with the bolts that it 'slides' on.

The piston seems OK and works in and out fine. So I'll just have to do
more right hand grip exercises. Still got a squeezy, springy thing
somewhere from the physio on my left hand.

In other news, I replaced the naff black 'letter box' mirrors with
reasonably authentic looking chrome ones from Wemoto. Looks better and
you can actually see something in them.

Starting even better now with a new Fulbat (Belgian - new one on me)
battery and an Iridium NGK plug.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:07:24 +0100, Pete Fisher
<peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Are they all shite or is it just the ones on snazzy Kawasakis?

"snazzy"? The poor reputation of Tokicos is I believe directly down
to the six-pots that Kawasaki used in the late 90s - also fitted to
the first-gen Hayabusa.

>Thought I would investigate why the CB250RS front brake feels a bit
>wooden cf. the Morini.
>
>Sliding caliper setup so all kinds of options for unimpressive
>performance.

Yes. Sliding caliper design is at least a generation or two before
that, and, as you say, lots of ways they can go to shit

>Mind you, at the start of the first decent run I did grab
>it hard enough to nearly lose the front. According to Dave at Magnum the
>Metzeler 77s are from 2001.

I think a crap front tyre will kill you quicker than a crap front
brake, so get that changed first!

>Anyway, the Haynes BoL says withdraw the retaining pins to get the pads
>(which have plenty of meat) out with the caliper in situ. In my dreams.
>After some tugging, I suspect they would have to be driven out and
>that's not going to happen unless I get the caliper off completely and
>on the workbench. Same with the bolts that it 'slides' on.
>
>The piston seems OK and works in and out fine. So I'll just have to do
>more right hand grip exercises. Still got a squeezy, springy thing
>somewhere from the physio on my left hand.

Well. As you obviously know, the piston presses one pad against the
disk, which will cause the whole caliper to slide and force the
opposite pad against the disk. So if there's any question of the
caliper not sliding properly, then you're only using half the brake.
The pads really should be mobile on their pins too.

You don't need me to tell you this, but - SORT THE FUCKING BRAKES
OUT!!!
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 31/07/2023 15:07, Champ wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:07:24 +0100, Pete Fisher
> <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Are they all shite or is it just the ones on snazzy Kawasakis?
>
> "snazzy"? The poor reputation of Tokicos is I believe directly down
> to the six-pots that Kawasaki used in the late 90s - also fitted to
> the first-gen Hayabusa.
>

I thought I had seen mention of issues.

>> Thought I would investigate why the CB250RS front brake feels a bit
>> wooden cf. the Morini.
>>
>> Sliding caliper setup so all kinds of options for unimpressive
>> performance.
>
> Yes. Sliding caliper design is at least a generation or two before
> that, and, as you say, lots of ways they can go to shit
>
>> Mind you, at the start of the first decent run I did grab
>> it hard enough to nearly lose the front. According to Dave at Magnum the
>> Metzeler 77s are from 2001.
>
> I think a crap front tyre will kill you quicker than a crap front
> brake, so get that changed first!
>

Tomorrow all being well, if Dave gets a pair from the warehouse first
thing. TBF, as the run proceeded they did take on a bit of heat and not
feel quite so awful. Did have to have a dab elsewhere but that was down
to slippery cobbles in a ford.

>> Anyway, the Haynes BoL says withdraw the retaining pins to get the pads
>> (which have plenty of meat) out with the caliper in situ. In my dreams.
>> After some tugging, I suspect they would have to be driven out and
>> that's not going to happen unless I get the caliper off completely and
>> on the workbench. Same with the bolts that it 'slides' on.
>>
>> The piston seems OK and works in and out fine. So I'll just have to do
>> more right hand grip exercises. Still got a squeezy, springy thing
>> somewhere from the physio on my left hand.
>
> Well. As you obviously know, the piston presses one pad against the
> disk, which will cause the whole caliper to slide and force the
> opposite pad against the disk. So if there's any question of the
> caliper not sliding properly, then you're only using half the brake.
> The pads really should be mobile on their pins too.
>

The pads are mobile on the pins. Just that the pins won't come out of
the caliper.

> You don't need me to tell you this, but - SORT THE FUCKING BRAKES
> OUT!!!

Indeed.

I just made up a custom front brake cable (nipple soldered on to a
universal kit) so that I can temporarily fit higher bars on the Gilera
for the Levis Trial. What could possibly go wrong?

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:07:45 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:07:24 +0100, Pete Fisher
><peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Are they all shite or is it just the ones on snazzy Kawasakis?
>
>"snazzy"? The poor reputation of Tokicos is I believe directly down
>to the six-pots that Kawasaki used in the late 90s - also fitted to
>the first-gen Hayabusa.

And TL1000Rs.

--

-Pip

On 31/07/2023 15:51, Pete Fisher wrote:

>>> Anyway, the Haynes BoL says withdraw the retaining pins to get the pads
>>> (which have plenty of meat) out with the caliper in situ. In my dreams.
>>> After some tugging, I suspect they would have to be driven out and
>>> that's not going to happen unless I get the caliper off completely and
>>> on the workbench. Same with the bolts that it 'slides' on.
>>>

Where are the UKRM lateral thinkers these days?

The answer of course is to a) loosen the slider bolts and b) drive the
pad pins out while the caliper is still bolted to the forks.

I've already done a) slightly and re-tightened, with a socket and
extension. b) will be contingent on finding a suitable drift. A blunt
centre punch might get them started at least.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 15:07:49 UTC+1, Champ wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:07:24 +0100, Pete Fisher
> <pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Are they all shite or is it just the ones on snazzy Kawasakis?
> "snazzy"? The poor reputation of Tokicos is I believe directly down
> to the six-pots that Kawasaki used in the late 90s - also fitted to
> the first-gen Hayabusa.

Also the GSXR1000 K1/2. The 6 pot brakes were sub par. On the bike eventually sold to Loz I upgraded to AP calipers and discs, the improvements was enormous.
The Bastard12 has a 9R front end and came with the 6x. Not only poor brakes but incredibly prone to sticking and seizing pistons. It got the Nissin 4 pot conversion.

On 02/08/2023 12:12, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 31/07/2023 15:51, Pete Fisher wrote:
>
>>>> Anyway, the Haynes BoL says withdraw the retaining pins to get the pads
>>>> (which have plenty of meat) out with the caliper in situ. In my dreams.
>>>> After some tugging, I suspect they would have to be driven out and
>>>> that's not going to happen unless I get the caliper off completely and
>>>> on the workbench. Same with the bolts that it 'slides' on.
>>>>
>
>
> Where are the UKRM lateral thinkers these days?
>
> The answer of course is to a) loosen the slider bolts and b) drive the
> pad pins out while the caliper is still bolted to the forks.
>
> I've already done a) slightly and re-tightened, with a socket and
> extension. b) will be contingent on finding a suitable drift. A blunt
> centre punch might get them started at least.
>
G-frame and a fine-threaded bolt to push them through?
<disclaimer> I don't know the geography of the component, but it
*sounds* as if a sort-of g-cramp ought to work.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 03/08/2023 01:44, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 02/08/2023 12:12, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 31/07/2023 15:51, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>
>>>>> Anyway, the Haynes BoL says withdraw the retaining pins to get the
>>>>> pads
>>>>> (which have plenty of meat) out with the caliper in situ. In my
>>>>> dreams.
>>>>> After some tugging, I suspect they would have to be driven out and
>>>>> that's not going to happen unless I get the caliper off completely and
>>>>> on the workbench. Same with the bolts that it 'slides' on.
>>>>>
>>
>>
>> Where are the UKRM lateral thinkers these days?
>>
>> The answer of course is to a) loosen the slider bolts and b) drive the
>> pad pins out while the caliper is still bolted to the forks.
>>
>> I've already done a) slightly and re-tightened, with a socket and
>> extension. b) will be contingent on finding a suitable drift. A blunt
>> centre punch might get them started at least.
>>
> G-frame and a fine-threaded bolt to push them through?
> <disclaimer> I don't know the geography of the component, but it
> *sounds* as if a sort-of g-cramp ought to work.
>
>

It might, with a suitable bit of tube or a small socket to receive the
pushed out pin. I suspect once the retained by a spring large diameter
end has been persuaded out, the rest will succumb fairly easily.
--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 31/07/2023 15:51, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 31/07/2023 15:07, Champ wrote:

>>
>> I think a crap front tyre will kill you quicker than a crap front
>> brake, so get that changed first!
>>
>
> Tomorrow all being well, if Dave gets a pair from the warehouse first
> thing. TBF, as the run proceeded they did take on a bit of heat and not
> feel quite so awful. Did have to have a dab elsewhere but that was down
> to slippery cobbles in a ford.
>

Dave had trouble finding a suitable pair in the right size and speed
rating. Went for keeping the classic vibe with Dunlop K82s (think
TT100s) in the end.

He had to get ingenious with wheel removal with no centre stand fitted.
A great service as usual but took longer than average because he had to
clean the rim internals up.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"