I wrote to the publisher as I am looking for a workshop manual, or BoL,
and got this response;

"Thank you for your email. We have not covered this model in our manuals.

Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
that will contain other/newer models of motorcycles, however I'm unable
to say when this would be."

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
marked with oily thumb prints.

On 24/08/2023 09:25, Tim wrote:
> I wrote to the publisher as I am looking for a workshop manual, or BoL,
> and got this response;
>
> "Thank you for your email. We have not covered this model in our manuals.
>
> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
> that will contain other/newer models of motorcycles, however I'm unable
> to say when this would be."
>
> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
> subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
> marked with oily thumb prints.

Select appropriate page of PDF (made easier by properly bookmarked
file). Zoom in so you can see the intricate bits in the illustrations.
Click print current view. Carry to garage or service location and get as
oily as you like.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 24/08/2023 09:25, Tim wrote:
> I wrote to the publisher as I am looking for a workshop manual, or BoL,
> and got this response;
>
> "Thank you for your email. We have not covered this model in our manuals.
>
> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
> that will contain other/newer models of motorcycles, however I'm unable
> to say when this would be."

Be aware that (some?) online manuals do not cover everything.
I struggled to get the starter motor out of my van, so bought the online
manual.
£25 iirc, it was rubbish. Firstly, you don't download it, it is online,
and you need to login every time you want to view it.
I couldn't even get to the motor, so wanted to see how it should be
done. All it said was something like "Starter motor has 3 bolts to
remove it".
I thought I had missed something, but on looking through it diligently,
there was no mention of how to get to it. Indeed, there was mention on
the Haynes site that it was for 'popular maintenance tasks and fault
finding', none of the sequence to get at those bolts was detailed.
In the end, the RH front suspension and engine mount had to come off,
then the engine needed to be dropped to get to one bolt, and lifted to
get at another bolt. None of this was in the Haynes manual.
I'd just go with the dodgy CDs/downloads available on ebay of,
reputedly, the factory manual at half the price.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 09:25, Tim wrote:

[snip]

>> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
>> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future

[snip]

>> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
>> subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
>> marked with oily thumb prints.

+1

The objective is to keep you paying forever rather than once. The
fact that they don't have to bother printing or shipping a book is
merely a bonus. If smart devices and the internet didn't exist they'd
be just as happy to do this by using paper that dissolves after a
few days/weeks/months.

> Select appropriate page of PDF (made easier by properly bookmarked
> file). Zoom in so you can see the intricate bits in the illustrations.
> Click print current view. Carry to garage or service location and get as
> oily as you like.

I try to get PDFs of workshop manuals I already own, the paper and
electronic versions complement each other. I will always want a
paper copy of the manual, printed in high quality on clay coated
paper and professionally bound. I miss the quality and depth of my
70s/80s Kawasaki manuals, IMHO there were none better.

Up to now, I have always purchased the factory workshop manual for
every bike I have owned, as well as most of our cars. But for our
last three cars, printed manuals simply don't exist.

My local library subscribes to the Alldata repair manual service,
which I used when replacing injectors & the upstream O2 sensor (which
is actually a wideband A/F ratio sensor) on my Toyota Corolla. Select
the relevant section(s), print into a PDF, then send the files to my
phone via Bluetooth. This worked fine despite the Alldata application
claiming to not allow printing to anything other than the library's
printers at 10 cents/page.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:

[much snippage]

> I struggled to get the starter motor out of my van, so bought the online
> manual.

> In the end, the RH front suspension and engine mount had to come off,
> then the engine needed to be dropped to get to one bolt, and lifted to
> get at another bolt. None of this was in the Haynes manual.

I hear your pain. I've seen a few similar head scratchers.

That said, over the years, I have learned through personal experience
and also working on cars with a friend who was a professional (Porsche
& Audi) mechanic, that the workshop manual's disassembly procedures
(assuming they are even there in the first place) are not always
the only way to skin the proverbial. My friend has special tools he
has made (or bought) to do jobs multiple times per week, that made
it possible to access seemingly impossible bolts much quicker than
by following the official procedure. Getting paid by the flat rate
book does wonders for concentrating the mind.

Also not to be ignored is the option of using a big pry bar to open
a gap just big enough to admit a socket on a long extension...

[1] Let's not forget the Angle Grinder.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 24/08/2023 11:32, Mark Olson wrote:
> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/08/2023 09:25, Tim wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
>>> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
>>> subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
>>> marked with oily thumb prints.
>
> +1
>
> The objective is to keep you paying forever rather than once. The
> fact that they don't have to bother printing or shipping a book is
> merely a bonus. If smart devices and the internet didn't exist they'd
> be just as happy to do this by using paper that dissolves after a
> few days/weeks/months.
>
>> Select appropriate page of PDF (made easier by properly bookmarked
>> file). Zoom in so you can see the intricate bits in the illustrations.
>> Click print current view. Carry to garage or service location and get as
>> oily as you like.
>
> I try to get PDFs of workshop manuals I already own, the paper and
> electronic versions complement each other. I will always want a
> paper copy of the manual, printed in high quality on clay coated
> paper and professionally bound. I miss the quality and depth of my
> 70s/80s Kawasaki manuals, IMHO there were none better.
>
> Up to now, I have always purchased the factory workshop manual for
> every bike I have owned, as well as most of our cars. But for our
> last three cars, printed manuals simply don't exist.
>
> My local library subscribes to the Alldata repair manual service,
> which I used when replacing injectors & the upstream O2 sensor (which
> is actually a wideband A/F ratio sensor) on my Toyota Corolla. Select
> the relevant section(s), print into a PDF, then send the files to my
> phone via Bluetooth. This worked fine despite the Alldata application
> claiming to not allow printing to anything other than the library's
> printers at 10 cents/page.
>

I find youtube videos can be more helpful than any manual - so long as
the person producing them knows their onions.

The advantage of PDF versions is that they can be held on a DMS with
full text search. Useful for machines long out of production. Not much
effort to produce with decent scanning software and a bit of bookmark
creation in Foxit or similar. Oh, don't tell a certain Italian
manufacturer OK?

The OEM PDF one I have for the Husqvarna isn't too bad.

When it comes to cars, I changed the cam belt on the MX5 myself thanks
to a HBOL, Youtube and a hint from a VMCC member.

Can't see me attempting to mess with the box of tricks that is the F55
Mini Cooper.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I find youtube videos can be more helpful than any manual - so long as
> the person producing them knows their onions.

I'd agree, but odds of any individual video being useful are about
50/50 at best. I hate having to sit through a ton of irrelevant
blather and camera shake to get to the single blurry out of focus
frame that shows me what I need to see. A collection of still photos,
properly done, are much more useful than a poorly produced video.

I'm lucky in that there is an ex-Toyota dealership mechanic on YouTube
now running his own garage, who has done many videos that are very
well produced. He is a bit long winded at times but I find him to be
a great source and I confess to being something of a fan.

https://www.youtube.com/c/TheCarCareNut

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 24/08/2023 09:45, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 09:25, Tim wrote:
>> I wrote to the publisher as I am looking for a workshop manual, or
>> BoL, and got this response;
>>
>> "Thank you for your email. We have not covered this model in our manuals.
>>
>> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
>> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
>> that will contain other/newer models of motorcycles, however I'm
>> unable to say when this would be."
>>
>> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
>> subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
>> marked with oily thumb prints.
>
> Select appropriate page of PDF (made easier by properly bookmarked
> file). Zoom in so you can see the intricate bits in the illustrations.
> Click print current view. Carry to garage or service location and get as
> oily as you like.
>
>
>
If only such a simple thing as a PDF existed. It now appears to be a
structured web interface from what I saw in the shop yesterday.

On 24/08/2023 13:55, Tim wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 09:45, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 24/08/2023 09:25, Tim wrote:
>>> I wrote to the publisher as I am looking for a workshop manual, or
>>> BoL, and got this response;
>>>
>>> "Thank you for your email. We have not covered this model in our
>>> manuals.
>>>
>>> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
>>> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
>>> that will contain other/newer models of motorcycles, however I'm
>>> unable to say when this would be."
>>>
>>> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
>>> subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
>>> marked with oily thumb prints.
>>
>> Select appropriate page of PDF (made easier by properly bookmarked
>> file). Zoom in so you can see the intricate bits in the illustrations.
>> Click print current view. Carry to garage or service location and get
>> as oily as you like.
>>
>>
>>
> If only such a simple thing as a PDF existed. It now appears to be a
> structured web interface from what I saw in the shop yesterday.

GPWM.

All my vehicles with the exception possibly of the MINI [1] seem to have
PDF workshop manuals available. The Fiat Ducato has a massive paper
owners manual but with so many 'ah but only some models' entries that
it's sometimes not very helpful.

I only had to negotiate the Fiat parts online system once for SWMBO's
diesel Punto. It did at least enable me to go to the main dealer (that
has no official parts department) armed with a part number for an engine
mounting shock absorber.

[1] The service record for that is all digital and accessible via the
'Infotainment' unit. Got a printout of it when I bought it.

<Googles> I see there is a printed HBOL and an 'online' version.
"Due to the complexity of the automatic transmission, any repair or
overhaul work must be left to a MINI dealer with the necessary special
equipment for fault diagnosis and repair. The Specifications of the
following Sections are therefore confined to supplying general
information, and any service information and instructions that can be
used by the owner."

Digits crossed the automatic gearbox mountings last me out.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 24/08/2023 12:59, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 11:32, Mark Olson wrote:
>> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/08/2023 09:25, Tim wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
>>>> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
>>>> subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
>>>> marked with oily thumb prints.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> The objective is to keep you paying forever rather than once. The
>> fact that they don't have to bother printing or shipping a book is
>> merely a bonus. If smart devices and the internet didn't exist they'd
>> be just as happy to do this by using paper that dissolves after a
>> few days/weeks/months.
>>
>>> Select appropriate page of PDF (made easier by properly bookmarked
>>> file). Zoom in so you can see the intricate bits in the illustrations.
>>> Click print current view. Carry to garage or service location and get as
>>> oily as you like.
>>
>> I try to get PDFs of workshop manuals I already own, the paper and
>> electronic versions complement each other. I will always want a
>> paper copy of the manual, printed in high quality on clay coated
>> paper and professionally bound. I miss the quality and depth of my
>> 70s/80s Kawasaki manuals, IMHO there were none better.
>>
>> Up to now, I have always purchased the factory workshop manual for
>> every bike I have owned, as well as most of our cars. But for our
>> last three cars, printed manuals simply don't exist.
>>
>> My local library subscribes to the Alldata repair manual service,
>> which I used when replacing injectors & the upstream O2 sensor (which
>> is actually a wideband A/F ratio sensor) on my Toyota Corolla. Select
>> the relevant section(s), print into a PDF, then send the files to my
>> phone via Bluetooth. This worked fine despite the Alldata application
>> claiming to not allow printing to anything other than the library's
>> printers at 10 cents/page.
>>
>
> I find youtube videos can be more helpful than any manual - so long as
> the person producing them knows their onions.
>
> The advantage of PDF versions is that they can be held on a DMS with
> full text search. Useful for machines long out of production. Not much
> effort to produce with decent scanning software and a bit of bookmark
> creation in Foxit or similar. Oh, don't tell a certain Italian
> manufacturer OK?
>
> The OEM PDF one I have for the Husqvarna isn't too bad.
>
> When it comes to cars, I changed the cam belt on the MX5 myself thanks
> to a HBOL, Youtube and a hint from a VMCC member.
>
> Can't see me attempting to mess with the box of tricks that is the F55
> Mini Cooper.

Come a long way since I first met a Mini - In the Highlands of That
Scotland and I thought: "I can't get into *that!"*.

But the bloke who got out of the tin door uncoiled into someone rather
taller than my six feet (and half an inch), so I had to believe I could.

This was the year prior to its release for sale and was rather more
'stripped' than even the first Minis sold. It seems likely that the
driver was Alec Issigonis, (from his appearance, viewed years later) and
he was road-testing it pior to its release on an unsuspecting public.

He threw the thing about like a Mini Cooper on twisty, humpy roads and I
was highly impressed by its handling and roadholding, but not so much by
the 'eee, looxury!' of it.

Now the Mini isn't. And just you try to tinker with it...

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 8/24/2023 1:25 AM, Tim wrote:
>
> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
> motorcycles. There may be a new online product produced in the future
> that will contain other/newer models of motorcycles, however I'm unable
> to say when this would be."
>
> I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Main dealers are now using a
> subscription service for documentation. But I really prefer a book
> marked with oily thumb prints.

Bastards. Assuming you'll always have inet access where you have to work
on it

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 24/08/2023 14:20, Pete Fisher wrote:
> <Googles> I see there is a printed HBOL and an 'online' version.
> "Due to the complexity of the automatic transmission, any repair or
> overhaul work must be left to a MINI dealer with the necessary special
> equipment for fault diagnosis and repair. The Specifications of the
> following Sections are therefore confined to supplying general
> information, and any service information and instructions that can be
> used by the owner."

Isn't that code for "we couldn't get it back together again"?

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 19:10:39 +0100, Bruce Horrocks
<07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote:

>On 24/08/2023 14:20, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> <Googles> I see there is a printed HBOL and an 'online' version.
>> "Due to the complexity of the automatic transmission, any repair or
>> overhaul work must be left to a MINI dealer with the necessary special
>> equipment for fault diagnosis and repair. The Specifications of the
>> following Sections are therefore confined to supplying general
>> information, and any service information and instructions that can be
>> used by the owner."
>
>Isn't that code for "we couldn't get it back together again"?

For those times when "Assembly is the reverse of dissassembly" didn't
quite cut it.
--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 25/08/2023 08:13, Ace wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 19:10:39 +0100, Bruce Horrocks
> <07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote:
>
>> On 24/08/2023 14:20, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>> <Googles> I see there is a printed HBOL and an 'online' version.
>>> "Due to the complexity of the automatic transmission, any repair or
>>> overhaul work must be left to a MINI dealer with the necessary special
>>> equipment for fault diagnosis and repair. The Specifications of the
>>> following Sections are therefore confined to supplying general
>>> information, and any service information and instructions that can be
>>> used by the owner."
>>
>> Isn't that code for "we couldn't get it back together again"?
>
> For those times when "Assembly is the reverse of dissassembly" didn't
> quite cut it.

"No user maintainable parts inside."

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 25/08/2023 14:07, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 25/08/2023 08:13, Ace wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 19:10:39 +0100, Bruce Horrocks
>> <07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/08/2023 14:20, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>>> <Googles> I see there is a printed HBOL and an 'online' version.
>>>> "Due to the complexity of the automatic transmission, any repair or
>>>> overhaul work must be left to a MINI dealer with the necessary special
>>>> equipment for fault diagnosis and repair. The Specifications of the
>>>> following Sections are therefore confined to supplying general
>>>> information, and any service information and instructions that can be
>>>> used by the owner."
>>>
>>> Isn't that code for "we couldn't get it back together again"?
>>
>> For those times when "Assembly is the reverse of dissassembly" didn't
>> quite cut it.
>
> "No user maintainable parts inside."

Code for "If you could see how really simple it is..."

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

Tim wrote:

> Haynes has stopped producing new print manuals for both cars and
> motorcycles.

For the Husqvarna I paid £24 for the PDF of the factory manual and -
white collar crime - printed it on the work photocopier.

I have PDFs for the Jag, as well as parts books (very handy, full of
exploded diagrams). Again all printed and ring binders for working on
the bike/car. oily pages are easily replaced.

--
Simon

On 25/08/2023 14:07, Pete Fisher wrote:
>
> "No user maintainable parts inside."

In that respect, cars and humans have travelled in opposite directions.

On 24/08/2023 11:29, Alan Lee wrote:
>
> Be aware that (some?) online manuals do not cover everything.
> I struggled to get the starter motor out of my van, so bought the online
> manual.
> £25 iirc, it was rubbish. Firstly, you don't download it, it is online,
> and you need to login every time you want to view it.
> I couldn't even get to the motor, so wanted to see how it should be
> done. All it said was something like "Starter motor has 3 bolts to
> remove it".
> I thought I had missed something, but on looking through it diligently,
> there was no mention of how to get to it. Indeed, there was mention on
> the Haynes site that it was for 'popular maintenance tasks and fault
> finding', none of the sequence to get at those bolts was detailed.

Ah well, that's the problem. It's a very unpopular task.