On today's Red Button:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-67706670

and one from last year:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-61377944

I think we can conclude that the backup system is not yet fully
satisfactorily thought through. The official Guidance suggests a UPS
of one hour's duration for emergency calling service. As mentioned
elsewhere, during Storm Babet, we had a power outage in North West
Suffolk, of more than an hour, and mobile 'phone service was also
dead. Even when there is no power problem, Norfolk is notorious for its
many 'not-Spots' for mobile reception.

--
Davey.

On 17/12/2023 10:42, Davey wrote:
> I think we can conclude that the backup system is not yet fully
> satisfactorily thought through. The official Guidance suggests a UPS
> of one hour's duration for emergency calling service. As mentioned
> elsewhere, during Storm Babet, we had a power outage in North West
> Suffolk, of more than an hour, and mobile 'phone service was also
> dead. Even when there is no power problem, Norfolk is notorious for its
> many 'not-Spots' for mobile reception.

So if an elderly couple lose power during the night and wife wakes to
find her husband is unconscious or dead then she cannot summon help
until someone visits here?

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 10:42, Davey wrote:
>> I think we can conclude that the backup system is not yet fully
>> satisfactorily thought through. The official Guidance suggests a UPS
>> of one hour's duration for emergency calling service. As mentioned
>> elsewhere, during Storm Babet, we had a power outage in North West
>> Suffolk, of more than an hour, and mobile 'phone service was also
>> dead. Even when there is no power problem, Norfolk is notorious for its
>> many 'not-Spots' for mobile reception.
>
>
> So if an elderly couple lose power during the night and wife wakes to
> find her husband is unconscious or dead then she cannot summon help
> until someone visits here?
>

Mobile phone? Knock on neighbour’s door?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 17 Dec 2023 11:47:39 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 10:42, Davey wrote:
>>> I think we can conclude that the backup system is not yet fully
>>> satisfactorily thought through. The official Guidance suggests a UPS
>>> of one hour's duration for emergency calling service. As mentioned
>>> elsewhere, during Storm Babet, we had a power outage in North West
>>> Suffolk, of more than an hour, and mobile 'phone service was also
>>> dead. Even when there is no power problem, Norfolk is notorious for its
>>> many 'not-Spots' for mobile reception.
>>
>> So if an elderly couple lose power during the night and wife wakes to
>> find her husband is unconscious or dead then she cannot summon help
>> until someone visits here?
>
>Mobile phone? Knock on neighbour’s door?

(Quote) 'we had a power outage in North West Suffolk, of more than an
hour, and mobile 'phone service was also dead'

Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 10:42, Davey wrote:
>>> I think we can conclude that the backup system is not yet fully
>>> satisfactorily thought through. The official Guidance suggests a UPS
>>> of one hour's duration for emergency calling service. As mentioned
>>> elsewhere, during Storm Babet, we had a power outage in North West
>>> Suffolk, of more than an hour, and mobile 'phone service was also
>>> dead. Even when there is no power problem, Norfolk is notorious for its
>>> many 'not-Spots' for mobile reception.
>>
>>
>> So if an elderly couple lose power during the night and wife wakes to
>> find her husband is unconscious or dead then she cannot summon help
>> until someone visits here?
>>
>
> Mobile phone? Knock on neighbour’s door?
>
> Tim
>

Perhaps satcoms might be the answer in a few years. Already a new model
iPhone can send an emergency text message. It’s not impossible to design a
domestic fixed system with a small roof antenna to do similar. We’ve been
doing it with TV aerials for decades.

Tweed wrote:

> Tim+ wrote:
>
>> JMB99 wrote:
>>
>>> So if an elderly couple lose power during the night and wife wakes to
>>> find her husband is unconscious or dead then she cannot summon help
>>> until someone visits here?
>>
>> Mobile phone? Knock on neighbour’s door?
>
> Perhaps satcoms might be the answer in a few years. Already a new model
> iPhone can send an emergency text message. I

Unlikely to solve the power issue ...

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Tweed wrote:
>
>> Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> JMB99 wrote:
>>>
>>>> So if an elderly couple lose power during the night and wife wakes to
>>>> find her husband is unconscious or dead then she cannot summon help
>>>> until someone visits here?
>>>
>>> Mobile phone? Knock on neighbour’s door?
>>
>> Perhaps satcoms might be the answer in a few years. Already a new model
>> iPhone can send an emergency text message. I
>
> Unlikely to solve the power issue ...
>
>

Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon

On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon

Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
supposed solutions out of their savings.

Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?

On 17/12/2023 13:35, JMB99 wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>
>
>
> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay?  They are supposed
> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>
> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>
>
>
>
The converse is happening. The government is funding the deployment of
fibre networks. The real answer to resilience is to have full fibre and
backup power to the router and network terminator. The fibre network
itself is resilient to power cuts, well assuming the backup power
solutions is retained in the remaining exchanges...

Dave

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>
>
>
> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>
> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>
Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
by the end user.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Tweed wrote:
>
> > Tim+ wrote:
> >
> >> JMB99 wrote:
> >>
> >>> So if an elderly couple lose power during the night and wife wakes to
> >>> find her husband is unconscious or dead then she cannot summon help
> >>> until someone visits here?
> >>
> >> Mobile phone? Knock on neighbour’s door?
> >
> > Perhaps satcoms might be the answer in a few years. Already a new model
> > iPhone can send an emergency text message. I
>
> Unlikely to solve the power issue ...

I wonder when it'll become sensible for everyone vulnerable to have a solar
panel and a small battery. Size it so that even in the depths of winter it
would provide enough power to keep critical comms going, and maybe mount the
panel vertically (south/east/west facing) so it doesn't collect snow.

Then use emergency satcom so no reliance on local infrastructure.

Theo

Theo wrote:

> I wonder when it'll become sensible for everyone vulnerable to have a solar
> panel and a small battery. Size it so that even in the depths of winter it
> would provide enough power to keep critical comms going

LiFePO₄ are bad at charging in winter, so you're probably back to
lead-acid and replace every 3-4 years ...

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 15:21:38 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>>
>> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
>> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
>> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>>
>> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>>
>Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
>by the end user.

When natural gas was introduced, the supplier met the cost of
conversion.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 15:21:38 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>>>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>>>
>>> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
>>> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
>>> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>>>
>> Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
>> by the end user.
>
> When natural gas was introduced, the supplier met the cost of
> conversion.
>

Because they wanted to carry on supplying you with gas. Telephone companies
don’t exist as social services. We have Social Services for that.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
>> I wonder when it'll become sensible for everyone vulnerable to have a solar
>> panel and a small battery. Size it so that even in the depths of winter it
>> would provide enough power to keep critical comms going
>
> LiFePO₄ are bad at charging in winter, so you're probably back to
> lead-acid and replace every 3-4 years ...
>

Less good for sure but if they’re in the house temperature drop will take a
while in the event of a power cut.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
> > I wonder when it'll become sensible for everyone vulnerable to have a solar
> > panel and a small battery. Size it so that even in the depths of winter it
> > would provide enough power to keep critical comms going
>
> LiFePO₄ are bad at charging in winter, so you're probably back to
> lead-acid and replace every 3-4 years ...

You'd keep the battery inside, so if it gets so cold as not to charge then
you have other problems. You might get down to freezing inside during a
week's power cut, but even then you'll get some degree of power during
daylight hours.

Theo

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 16:46:32 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 15:21:38 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>>>>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>>>>
>>>> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
>>>> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
>>>> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>>>>
>>> Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
>>> by the end user.
>>
>> When natural gas was introduced, the supplier met the cost of
>> conversion.
>>
>Because they wanted to carry on supplying you with gas. Telephone companies
>don’t exist as social services. We have Social Services for that.

They were nationalised at the time so profitability was not a big
issue. They did it because the government of the day told them to as
part of their public service obligation.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 16:46:32 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 15:21:38 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>>>>>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>>>>>
>>>>> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
>>>>> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
>>>>> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>>>>>
>>>> Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
>>>> by the end user.
>>>
>>> When natural gas was introduced, the supplier met the cost of
>>> conversion.
>>>
>> Because they wanted to carry on supplying you with gas. Telephone companies
>> don’t exist as social services. We have Social Services for that.
>
> They were nationalised at the time so profitability was not a big
> issue. They did it because the government of the day told them to as
> part of their public service obligation.
>

No. They did it because they wanted to move to a far cheaper (and safer and
cleaner to produce) source of gas. They couldn’t do it without converting
their customers. The customers paid for it through their bills.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> > On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
> >> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
> >> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
> >
> >
> >
> > Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
> > removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
> > supposed solutions out of their savings.
> >
> > Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
> >
> Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
> by the end user.

Because they are under contract to supply a service and they won't be
able to supply it when it is most needed.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>>>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
>>> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
>>> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>>>
>> Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
>> by the end user.
>
> Because they are under contract to supply a service and they won't be
> able to supply it when it is most needed.
>

I think you will find the contract is very carefully worded in their
favour.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes:

> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up,
>>> sends message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>>
>>
>>
>> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are
>> supposed removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these
>> expensive supposed solutions out of their savings.
>>
>> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>>
> Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually
> paid for by the end user.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/consumer-issues/changes-to-landline-telephones/

"The aim of Ofcom (the communications regulator) is to make sure
customers don't face unnecessary disruption or harm because of the
changes. "

I don't think Ofcom is doing this.

It's a strange idea, 'unnecessary harm'. Why is a system unmaintainable
which has been maintained for so long? It's just about maximising
profits and tracking whose calling who the same way they track
everything else.

On 17/12/2023 16:43, Scott wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 15:21:38 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 17/12/2023 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Why not? Battery in device. Press big red button, device powers up, sends
>>>> message. Basically a variant on an EPIRB.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon
>>>
>>> Are the telecom companies (not just BT) going to pay? They are supposed
>>> removing the PSTN to save money so they can fund all these expensive
>>> supposed solutions out of their savings.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Chancellor can bring in a windfall tax to fund these?
>>>
>> Why should the phone companies pay? Fall alarm systems are usually paid for
>> by the end user.
>
> When natural gas was introduced, the supplier met the cost of
> conversion.

Looks like OFCOM has acted:-

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/12/major-uk-home-phone-providers-commit-to-protect-vulnerable-users.html

https://tinyurl.com/2yrj348j <short verion>

but of course that relies on identifying, and many don't want to be
"labelled" vunerable....

Dave

On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 08:56:00 +0000
David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

> Looks like OFCOM has acted:-
>
> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/12/major-uk-home-phone-providers-commit-to-protect-vulnerable-users.html
>
> https://tinyurl.com/2yrj348j <short verion>

Ofcom must have read my OP !!!!!!

--
Davey.

Davey wrote:

> David Wade wrote:
>
>> Looks like OFCOM has acted:-
>> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/12/major-uk-home-phone-providers-commit-to-protect-vulnerable-users.html

Why *on* *earth* is ispreview mentioning flywheel UPS for home use?!

Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 08:56:00 +0000
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Looks like OFCOM has acted:-
>>
>> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/12/major-uk-home-phone-providers-commit-to-protect-vulnerable-users.html
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/2yrj348j <short verion>
>
> Ofcom must have read my OP !!!!!!
>

If you read the charter carefully there’s lots of get outs. Better than
nothing though. Fall alarm base stations themselves are battery backed, but
that probably won’t last more than a day (my mother’s was returned after
her death, so I can’t easily check)