On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>>> <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
>>>>>>>> talking
>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on one's
>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
>>>>
>>>> Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
>>>
>>> All understood.
>>>
>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
>>>>>>> drive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
>>>>>> if you cut the power.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
>>>>
>>>> No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
>>>
>>> Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
>>
>>
>>
>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>
> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)

I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of those is storing the apple.

Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org>
> wrote:
>
>> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>> <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
>>>>>>>>> talking
>>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on
>>>>>>>> one's
>>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
>>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
>>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
>>>>
>>>> All understood.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
>>>>>>>> drive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>
>> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
>> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
>
> I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of
> those is storing the apple.

We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
access stored program machines with attached background storage.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram

Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.

Memory is about storage.

On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
[....]
> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>
> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>
> Memory is about storage.

How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
Physics degree!

On 3/12/2023 7:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>
>> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
>> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
>
> I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard.  Only one of those is storing the apple.

Storage can be persistent or volatile.

Hard drive: persistent (I can still read a 20 year old hard drive)
Core memory: persistent
DRAM: volatile (upon power loss or loss of sync clock)
SRAM: volatile (upon power loss)
flash: persistent (ten years minimum, NOR or NAND)

The desktop mini sitting on a cart in a lab in university,
had core memory. You could load a program into core, and
on the spur of the moment, flip the power switch next to the
keyboard, yank the power cable out of the wall, and walk
the cart into a different lab room. Plug in. And your
program was still there, the cursor still pointing at
the line number you were editing. The students loved this!
There were never any fights over the machine. But there was
only one of those (an HP product).

This is persistent core memory, and it was sewn by hand, by some ladies.
Ladies with really good eyesight.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/KL_CoreMemory.jpg

There are enough wires through each core, to sustain "read" and "Write".
After a "write", the "read" operation can sense a 0 or 1 in there.
The timing is on the order of a microsecond or so. It's not a nanosecond device.

The reason we had to move away from that, is the ladies could not possibly
have sewn 64,000,000,000 * 8 to make my computer work :-) It was not
a scaleable technology.

A later technology, was magnetic bubble memory. While in many ways, it
involves magnets, it has wires, the domains are in a solid and move
around. Yet, they are still persistent when the power goes off. The
bubbles do not collapse. The advantage of this idea, is the ladies
don't have to sew every bubble. You get a higher ratio of "bubbles"
to "wiring".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_memory

With regard to the DRAM entry, when a computer "sleeps", the memory
chips have power, but the voltage is slightly reduced. The device
is given an instruction for "Self Refresh" and as long as the
chip has a clock signal, a counter inside the DRAM, keeps track
of the rows and columns it needs to visit and do "refresh cycles".
The charge would drain off the floating gate, if the device remained
completely passive (like an SRAM would be when sleeping), and the
charge on the gates is methodically refreshed. Perhaps the charge
is guaranteed to stay put for 64 microseconds or something. Whereas
if you stopped the recharging thing, "most" of the cells would retain
their contents for at least a second, or even longer. Refresh is
done faster, to "guarantee" the contents. When this is done
on your laptop, the DRAM remains warm and it is draining the
battery while this is going on. You can't "sleep" a laptop
forever, while it is "on battery". This is why, even in this state,
it's volatile, as the battery will eventually run out. And then
hibernation has to happen in a hurry (if you expect to keep the
RAM contents). Hibernation, records the RAM contents on the hard drive.

Paul

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 12:41:01 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 3/12/2023 7:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>>
>>> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
>>> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
>>
>> I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard.  Only one of those is storing the apple.
>
>Storage can be persistent or volatile.

By your definition, but not mine. As I said,to me, "storing" implies
permanence (or at least semi-permanence).

If I go to the bank and deposit $1 in my checking account, I wouldn't
call that storage. The dollar will likely be used to write a check
soon.

But if I go to the bank and put a document in my safe deposit box, I
*would* call that storage.

>Hard drive: persistent (I can still read a 20 year old hard drive)
>Core memory: persistent

Perhaps in some machines, but not all. It wasn't in the IBM 1401 I
programmed on years ago, and I assume the same was true of other
mainframes of that era.

>DRAM: volatile (upon power loss or loss of sync clock)
>SRAM: volatile (upon power loss)
>flash: persistent (ten years minimum, NOR or NAND)
>
>The desktop mini sitting on a cart in a lab in university,
>had core memory. You could load a program into core, and
>on the spur of the moment, flip the power switch next to the
>keyboard, yank the power cable out of the wall, and walk
>the cart into a different lab room. Plug in. And your
>program was still there, the cursor still pointing at
>the line number you were editing. The students loved this!
>There were never any fights over the machine. But there was
>only one of those (an HP product).
>
>This is persistent core memory, and it was sewn by hand, by some ladies.
>Ladies with really good eyesight.

Perhaps in some machines, but it was wired by machine in the 1401, and
I assume the same was true of other mainframes of that era..

>
>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/KL_CoreMemory.jpg
>
>There are enough wires through each core, to sustain "read" and "Write".
>After a "write", the "read" operation can sense a 0 or 1 in there.
>The timing is on the order of a microsecond or so. It's not a nanosecond device.
>
>The reason we had to move away from that, is the ladies could not possibly
>have sewn 64,000,000,000 * 8 to make my computer work :-) It was not
>a scaleable technology.

Right, but there are other reasons:

Today's RAM is much smaller. Core memory couldn't fit into today's
PCs.

Being smaller isn't just a matter of fitting in. Smaller also implies
being faster.

On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
> [....]
>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>
>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>
>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>
>> Memory is about storage.
>
> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
> Physics degree!

I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.

--
pothead
Tommy Chong For President 2024.
Crazy Joe Biden Is A Demented Imbecile.
Impeach Joe Biden 2022.

On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>> [....]
>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>
>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>
>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>
>>> Memory is about storage.
>>
>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>> Physics degree!
>
> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.

I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I
was learning about electronics!

Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?

I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
through the heart of the pilot.

Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!

Oops!

> They'd only just invented transistOrs when I was learning about
> electronics!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor

On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
>> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>> [....]
>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>
>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>
>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>
>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>
>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>>> Physics degree!
>>
>> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
>> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
>
> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I
> was learning about electronics!

Sort of similar here.

> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?

I have not.

> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
> through the heart of the pilot.
>
> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!

Yikes!

--
pothead
Tommy Chong For President 2024.
Crazy Joe Biden Is A Demented Imbecile.
Impeach Joe Biden 2022.

David Brooks submitted this idea :
> On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
>> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>> [....]
>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>
>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>
>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>
>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>
>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>>> Physics degree!
>>
>> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the
>> last class at that college
>> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
>
> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
> learning about electronics!
>
> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>
> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
> through the heart of the pilot.
>
> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!

This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
<tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:

>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>> learning about electronics!
>>
>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>
>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>
>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>
> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
someone wearing a bullet proof vest.

https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q

(I am, of course, kidding).

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On 14/03/2023 01:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
> David Brooks submitted this idea :
>> On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>>> [....]
>>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>>
>>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>>
>>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>>
>>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>>>> Physics degree!
>>>
>>> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in
>>> the last class at that college
>>> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
>>
>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when
>> I was learning about electronics!
>>
>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>
>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>
>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>
> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

Phenominal fire power!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/0/0a/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv.1080p.webm

After serious thinking David Brooks wrote :
> On 14/03/2023 01:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> David Brooks submitted this idea :
>>> On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>>>> [....]
>>>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>>>
>>>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>>>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>>>>> Physics degree!
>>>>
>>>> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the
>>>> last class at that college
>>>> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
>>>
>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I
>>> was learning about electronics!
>>>
>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>
>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>
>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>
>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>
> Phenominal fire power!
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/0/0a/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv.1080p.webm

I had heard that the firing rate was 996 rounds in around 13 seconds,
also that the tracking radar could track seven targets at once,
enabling it to shoot the initial target into pieces and then target the
pieces.

That's even more than Dustin and his Henry could muster. :)

On 14/03/2023 01:18, Snit wrote:
> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>> learning about electronics!
>>>
>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>
>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>
>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>
>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>
> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>
> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>
> (I am, of course, kidding).

Nice clip! My wife cringes whenever I've suggested that we should use
such weapons on the myriad of small rubber boats crossing the English
Channel!

On 14/03/2023 09:58, FromTheRafters wrote:
> After serious thinking David Brooks wrote :
>> On 14/03/2023 01:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> David Brooks submitted this idea :
>>>> On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>>>>> [....]
>>>>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>>>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>>>>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>>>>>> Physics degree!
>>>>>
>>>>> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was
>>>>> in the last class at that college
>>>>> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
>>>>
>>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters
>>>> when I was learning about electronics!
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>>
>>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>>
>>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>>
>>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>>
>> Phenomenal fire power!
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/0/0a/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv/CIWS_Test_USN.ogv.1080p.webm
>
> I had heard that the firing rate was 996 rounds in around 13 seconds,
> also that the tracking radar could track seven targets at once, enabling
> it to shoot the initial target into pieces and then target the pieces.

Truly amazing!

> That's even more than Dustin and his Henry could muster. :)

I had to laugh at the memory! :-D

On Mar 14, 2023 at 3:02:56 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<lDXPL.1421233$iS99.1070049@fx16.iad>:

> On 14/03/2023 01:18, Snit wrote:
>> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
>> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>>> learning about electronics!
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>>
>>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>>
>>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>>
>>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>>
>> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
>> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>>
>> (I am, of course, kidding).
>
> Nice clip! My wife cringes whenever I've suggested that we should use
> such weapons on the myriad of small rubber boats crossing the English
> Channel!

Gee, but why?

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:41:01 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 3/12/2023 7:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>>
>>> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
>>> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
>>
>> I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of those is storing the apple.
>
> Storage can be persistent or volatile.

The apple is not stored in my hand. The program is not stored in RAM, it is held, just like the apple.

Why do we always use apples?

> Hard drive: persistent (I can still read a 20 year old hard drive)
> Core memory: persistent
> DRAM: volatile (upon power loss or loss of sync clock)
> SRAM: volatile (upon power loss)
> flash: persistent (ten years minimum, NOR or NAND)
>
> The desktop mini sitting on a cart in a lab in university,
> had core memory. You could load a program into core, and
> on the spur of the moment, flip the power switch next to the
> keyboard, yank the power cable out of the wall, and walk
> the cart into a different lab room. Plug in. And your
> program was still there, the cursor still pointing at
> the line number you were editing. The students loved this!

Why don't they do that with modern machines?

> There were never any fights over the machine. But there was
> only one of those (an HP product).
>
> This is persistent core memory, and it was sewn by hand, by some ladies.
> Ladies with really good eyesight.
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/KL_CoreMemory.jpg

That looks like a more advanced version than the one we have to show kids at school. I think ours was 10 by 10.

> There are enough wires through each core, to sustain "read" and "Write".
> After a "write", the "read" operation can sense a 0 or 1 in there.
> The timing is on the order of a microsecond or so. It's not a nanosecond device.
>
> The reason we had to move away from that, is the ladies could not possibly
> have sewn 64,000,000,000 * 8 to make my computer work :-) It was not
> a scaleable technology.

Must be possible to print it.

> A later technology, was magnetic bubble memory. While in many ways, it
> involves magnets, it has wires, the domains are in a solid and move
> around. Yet, they are still persistent when the power goes off. The
> bubbles do not collapse. The advantage of this idea, is the ladies
> don't have to sew every bubble. You get a higher ratio of "bubbles"
> to "wiring".
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_memory
>
> With regard to the DRAM entry, when a computer "sleeps", the memory
> chips have power, but the voltage is slightly reduced. The device
> is given an instruction for "Self Refresh" and as long as the
> chip has a clock signal, a counter inside the DRAM, keeps track
> of the rows and columns it needs to visit and do "refresh cycles".
> The charge would drain off the floating gate, if the device remained
> completely passive (like an SRAM would be when sleeping), and the
> charge on the gates is methodically refreshed. Perhaps the charge
> is guaranteed to stay put for 64 microseconds or something. Whereas
> if you stopped the recharging thing, "most" of the cells would retain
> their contents for at least a second, or even longer. Refresh is
> done faster, to "guarantee" the contents. When this is done
> on your laptop, the DRAM remains warm and it is draining the
> battery while this is going on. You can't "sleep" a laptop
> forever, while it is "on battery". This is why, even in this state,
> it's volatile, as the battery will eventually run out. And then
> hibernation has to happen in a hurry (if you expect to keep the
> RAM contents). Hibernation, records the RAM contents on the hard drive.

And eats half the SSD space.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
> [....]
>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>
>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>
>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>
>> Memory is about storage.
>
> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!

No I didn't, that was Dundee.

> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
> Physics degree!

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 07:20:24 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 21:26:40 -0000, FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It happens that Ken Blake formulated :
>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:34:30 +0000, dgb <dgbisat@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26/02/2023 10:12, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> dgb formulated the question :
>>>>>>> On 26/02/2023 04:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 21:04:26 -0000, David Brooks
>>>>>>>> <DavidB@a.new.address> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 14/02/2023 20:10, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but I didn't even consider the destination since he was
>>>>>>>>>> talking
>>>>>>>>>> about the source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm fairly sure you once told me that if one can see an image on
>>>>>>>>> one's
>>>>>>>>> computer screen it will be 'engraved' on one's computer /somewhere./
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe that I used 'engraved' but I may have said that seeing a
>>>>>> photo on your screen means that you downloaded it. By download I don't
>>>>>> mean it has to land on the HD or in your 'downloads' directory. Your
>>>>>> browser possibly uses the disk for some temp files. Basically, I was
>>>>>> saying "If you see it on your computer, it is there already." If you
>>>>>> play a copyrighted video file, it is there, if you move it from there to
>>>>>> another directory, you might be liable for copyright infringement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Streaming 'downloads' a stream a chunk at a time so you may never
>>>>>> actually have the 'whole thing' at any time.
>>>>>
>>>>> All understood.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I always have imagined that that 'somewhere' would be on one's hard
>>>>>>>>> drive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your imagination is incorrect. It could be in RAM, which disappears
>>>>>>>> if you cut the power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Someone else claimed that! Thank you. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you just told us that you 'imagined' it going to the HD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I did say that! Someone else ('nospam'?) claimed that RAM was
>>>>> another place to store data in addition to one's hard drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> RAM is another place where data can be, but I wouldn't call that
>>>> "storing." To me, "storing" implies permanence.
>>>
>>> Even RAM is storage, just fast storage. It's okay that you have
>>> different meanings for words though, I can cope. :)
>>
>> I can put an apple in my hand, or I can put it in the cupboard. Only one of
>> those is storing the apple.
>
> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
> access stored program machines with attached background storage.

We're talking about the meaning of a word in the English language.

> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>
> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>
> Memory is about storage.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 23:27:23 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 13/03/2023 21:10, pothead wrote:
>> On 2023-03-13, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>>> [....]
>>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>>
>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>>
>>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>>
>>>> Memory is about storage.
>>>
>>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>>> I know this because it's where my own late son, Nick, studied for HIS
>>> Physics degree!
>>
>> I minored in physics and majored in electrical engineering. I was in the last class at that college
>> to be taught vacuum tubes, or valves as the Brits call them.
>
> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I
> was learning about electronics!
>
> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>
> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
> through the heart of the pilot.

That sounds fun!

> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!

Eh? I assume it's the side he's on which matters.

I prefer er, it's how it's pronounced.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 23:33:05 -0000, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> Oops!
>
>> They'd only just invented transistOrs when I was learning about
>> electronics!
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>> learning about electronics!
>>>
>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>
>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>
>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>
>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>
> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>
> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>
> (I am, of course, kidding).

That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.

On Mar 19, 2023 at 3:09:41 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
<op.112qifp4mvhs6z@ryzen.home>:

> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
>> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>>> learning about electronics!
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>>
>>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>>
>>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>>
>>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>>
>> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
>> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>>
>> (I am, of course, kidding).
>
> That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.

It did.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On 19/03/2023 22:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:01:45 -0000, David Brooks
> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On 13/03/2023 07:20, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> Commander Kinsey expressed precisely :
>> [....]
>>> We're not talking about apples, we're talking about data in random
>>> access stored program machines with attached background storage.
>>>
>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-birth-of-ram
>>>
>>> Notice the use of 'store' or 'storage' while discussing RAM.
>>>
>>> Memory is about storage.
>>
>> How strange that you chose an item from the very University where the
>> Commander studied for his own degree in Physics!
>
> No I didn't, that was Dundee.
[....]

My apologies. Dundee is good for cakes, I know.
I had no idea that there was a University there.

Some great photos to explore, here:-

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dundee/@56.462018,-2.970721,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM1BC5xhhmUfh8CO0x9bcdyBJDvhwYRA0d5xmMc%3Dw203-h253-k-no!7i1080!8i1349!4m6!3m5!1s0x48864144ab639cd3:0x94e43b1e384be52a!8m2!3d56.462018!4d-2.970721!16zL20vMDJmdnY

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:16:40 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 19, 2023 at 3:09:41 PM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.112qifp4mvhs6z@ryzen.home>:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:18:00 -0000, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 13, 2023 at 6:13:18 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
>>> <tuohnh$l1k$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>
>>>>> I cut my teeth on 'valves'. They'd only just invented transisters when I was
>>>>> learning about electronics!
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever encountered an MRS3 Fire Control Computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> I was told that the objective was to have a shell explode in the
>>>>> viscinity of a high-speed target and deposit a 1 inch cube of steel
>>>>> through the heart of the pilot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither the colour nor creed of the pilot was ever a consideration!
>>>>
>>>> This was my favorite 'bad ass' machine.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
>>>
>>> Big expensive machine that misses more than it hits, and can be defeated by
>>> someone wearing a bullet proof vest.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/Zsf38NYzo5Q
>>>
>>> (I am, of course, kidding).
>>
>> That took a lot of bullets to not get that boat.
>
> It did.

A rather embarrassing fail. If I was the navy purchasing officer, I'd have laughed and refused to buy it.