Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 03/01/2024 10:18, JMB99 wrote:
>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline switchover:
>> Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send protest letters to
>> telecoms providers instead amid fears millions could be left in the dark
>> in the event of outages
>
> This is becoming almost as tedious as the new TV Licence threads that
> pop up every few weeks in the telly groups.
>

Customers outraged as domestic gas lights discontinued. Mrs Miggins (aged
92) was outraged. “How can I see at night during a power cut? At least
these gas supplies keep working”.

Am 03.01.2024 um 13:39:53 Uhr schrieb Scott:

> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>
> >Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
> >
> >> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
> >> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
> >> >
> >> >> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
> >> >> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
> >> >> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears
> >> >> millions could be left in the dark in the event of outages
> >> >
> >> >Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if
> >> >they don't provide the service anymore and the customers are
> >> >unwilling to switch to the replacement product?
> >> >
> >> >Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
> >>
> >> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
> >> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
> >> disproportionately affected (age being a protected
> >> characteristic).
> >
> >They are not excluded from the telephone service
>
> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.

Although that applies to all people, so it is not age discrimination.
If they need a more reliable service, they need to have an UPS at home
for their devices (DSL modem, local telephone exchange system, etc.).

Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> writes:

> On 03/01/2024 10:18, JMB99 wrote:
>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline switchover:
>> Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send protest letters to
>> telecoms providers instead amid fears millions could be left in the
>> dark in the event of outages
>
> Did pensioners arrive here from another planet and completely skip a
> life of things continuously changing over time?
>

If you have dementia then you arrive here from about 20 years ago with
no idea how to handle new things.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
> > On 03/01/2024 10:18, JMB99 wrote:
> >> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline switchover:
> >> Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send protest letters to
> >> telecoms providers instead amid fears millions could be left in the dark
> >> in the event of outages
> >
> > This is becoming almost as tedious as the new TV Licence threads that
> > pop up every few weeks in the telly groups.
> >
>
> Customers outraged as domestic gas lights discontinued. Mrs Miggins (aged
> 92) was outraged. “How can I see at night during a power cut? At least
> these gas supplies keep working”.

Theatres are obliged to have 2 independent lighting systems in the
auditorium and passageways, many of them simply kept the old gas
lighting alongside the new electric light.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 19:41:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:47:35 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:25:09 +0000, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 03/01/2024 13:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
>>>>>>>>>> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
>>>>>>>>>> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears millions
>>>>>>>>>> could be left in the dark in the event of outages
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if they
>>>>>>>>> don't provide the service anymore and the customers are unwilling to
>>>>>>>>> switch to the replacement product?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>>>>>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>>>>>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>>>>
>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>> https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf
>>>>>
>>>> (Quote)
>>>> 2.13 In December 2011, Ofcom published revised guidelines on how
>>>> providers supplying voice
>>>> services over Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) networks could meet the
>>>> requirements of the
>>>> General Conditions (the 2011 Guidance).5 The 2011 Guidance consisted
>>>> of three principles
>>>> which applied to both new-build and ?overlay? FTTP deployments:
>>>> 1. A battery back-up should always be provided to support publicly
>>>> available telephone
>>>> services (PATS) provided over FTTP.
>>>> 2. The minimum duration of the back-up facility should be 1 hour.
>>>> 3. Providers should take appropriate steps to ensure that the needs of
>>>> consumers
>>>> requiring additional protection, and who depend on 999/112 to a
>>>> greater extent than
>>>> the majority of the population, are addressed.
>>>>
>>>> What do you envisage to comply with para 3 then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Re para 3: get a bigger battery. Fall alarm systems are battery backed and
>>> therefore don?t run forever. You could devise a fall alarm that powered up
>>> the modem and ONT as needed.
>>>
>> Re para 3: responsibility lies with the provider.
>>
>
>Nope - take steps. That could simply mean telling the subscriber what they
>need to purchase.

'Appropriate steps to ensure that the needs [...] are addressed'. I
suppose the next stage is to find out whether the word 'addressed' has
been judicially interpreted. Does is mean 'resolved' or 'considered'?
The use of the word 'ensure' suggests a need for a positive outcome.

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 20:52:06 +0100, Marco Moock
<mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:

>Am 03.01.2024 um 13:39:53 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>
>> >Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
>> >> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
>> >> >> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
>> >> >> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears
>> >> >> millions could be left in the dark in the event of outages
>> >> >
>> >> >Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if
>> >> >they don't provide the service anymore and the customers are
>> >> >unwilling to switch to the replacement product?
>> >> >
>> >> >Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
>> >>
>> >> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>> >> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>> >> disproportionately affected (age being a protected
>> >> characteristic).
>> >
>> >They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>
>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>
>Although that applies to all people, so it is not age discrimination.
>If they need a more reliable service, they need to have an UPS at home
>for their devices (DSL modem, local telephone exchange system, etc.).

You don't think there is any evidence that as a group older - or
vulnerable - people are likely to be less conversant with technology
than younger people? The argument over closure of ticket offices at
railway stations tends to suggest they are.

On 03/01/2024 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> My elderly friends aunt always put things in the 13A sockets and left
> dead bulbs in the bayonets to 'stop electricity leaking out'.
> Many friends of my age group have simply stopped watching TV altogether,
> since they are old enough to know when they are being patronised and
> treated with utter contempt.

Yet they will rely on online news source!

>
> No one expects genuine unbiased news in the papers any more except
> people who read the Guardian.

They will be disappointed then if they rely on the Guardian.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 19:41:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:47:35 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:25:09 +0000, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/01/2024 13:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
>>>>>>>>>>> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
>>>>>>>>>>> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears millions
>>>>>>>>>>> could be left in the dark in the event of outages
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if they
>>>>>>>>>> don't provide the service anymore and the customers are unwilling to
>>>>>>>>>> switch to the replacement product?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>>>>>>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>>>>>>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>>> https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>> (Quote)
>>>>> 2.13 In December 2011, Ofcom published revised guidelines on how
>>>>> providers supplying voice
>>>>> services over Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) networks could meet the
>>>>> requirements of the
>>>>> General Conditions (the 2011 Guidance).5 The 2011 Guidance consisted
>>>>> of three principles
>>>>> which applied to both new-build and ?overlay? FTTP deployments:
>>>>> 1. A battery back-up should always be provided to support publicly
>>>>> available telephone
>>>>> services (PATS) provided over FTTP.
>>>>> 2. The minimum duration of the back-up facility should be 1 hour.
>>>>> 3. Providers should take appropriate steps to ensure that the needs of
>>>>> consumers
>>>>> requiring additional protection, and who depend on 999/112 to a
>>>>> greater extent than
>>>>> the majority of the population, are addressed.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you envisage to comply with para 3 then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Re para 3: get a bigger battery. Fall alarm systems are battery backed and
>>>> therefore don?t run forever. You could devise a fall alarm that powered up
>>>> the modem and ONT as needed.
>>>>
>>> Re para 3: responsibility lies with the provider.
>>>
>>
>> Nope - take steps. That could simply mean telling the subscriber what they
>> need to purchase.
>
> 'Appropriate steps to ensure that the needs [...] are addressed'. I
> suppose the next stage is to find out whether the word 'addressed' has
> been judicially interpreted. Does is mean 'resolved' or 'considered'?
> The use of the word 'ensure' suggests a need for a positive outcome.
>

Currently the telco has no need to provide a fall alarm system, or a big
button phone, or indeed any form of subscriber equipment. All that’s
changing here is the possible need for different equipment. Obviously
there’s a need for the telco to properly and clearly inform the subscriber,
or their representative, of what is now needed. This latter obligation has
been badly handled.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 06:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 19:41:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:47:35 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:25:09 +0000, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/01/2024 13:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
>>>>>>>>>>>> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
>>>>>>>>>>>> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears millions
>>>>>>>>>>>> could be left in the dark in the event of outages
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if they
>>>>>>>>>>> don't provide the service anymore and the customers are unwilling to
>>>>>>>>>>> switch to the replacement product?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>>>>>>>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>>>>>>>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>>>> https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Quote)
>>>>>> 2.13 In December 2011, Ofcom published revised guidelines on how
>>>>>> providers supplying voice
>>>>>> services over Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) networks could meet the
>>>>>> requirements of the
>>>>>> General Conditions (the 2011 Guidance).5 The 2011 Guidance consisted
>>>>>> of three principles
>>>>>> which applied to both new-build and ?overlay? FTTP deployments:
>>>>>> 1. A battery back-up should always be provided to support publicly
>>>>>> available telephone
>>>>>> services (PATS) provided over FTTP.
>>>>>> 2. The minimum duration of the back-up facility should be 1 hour.
>>>>>> 3. Providers should take appropriate steps to ensure that the needs of
>>>>>> consumers
>>>>>> requiring additional protection, and who depend on 999/112 to a
>>>>>> greater extent than
>>>>>> the majority of the population, are addressed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you envisage to comply with para 3 then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Re para 3: get a bigger battery. Fall alarm systems are battery backed and
>>>>> therefore don?t run forever. You could devise a fall alarm that powered up
>>>>> the modem and ONT as needed.
>>>>>
>>>> Re para 3: responsibility lies with the provider.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope - take steps. That could simply mean telling the subscriber what they
>>> need to purchase.
>>
>> 'Appropriate steps to ensure that the needs [...] are addressed'. I
>> suppose the next stage is to find out whether the word 'addressed' has
>> been judicially interpreted. Does is mean 'resolved' or 'considered'?
>> The use of the word 'ensure' suggests a need for a positive outcome.
>>
>Currently the telco has no need to provide a fall alarm system, or a big
>button phone, or indeed any form of subscriber equipment. All that’s
>changing here is the possible need for different equipment. Obviously
>there’s a need for the telco to properly and clearly inform the subscriber,
>or their representative, of what is now needed. This latter obligation has
>been badly handled.

Are you sure 'address' is limited to 'inform'? I think we could spend
a happy morning in court with linguistic experts debating this.

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 23:13:26 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 03/01/2024 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> My elderly friends aunt always put things in the 13A sockets and left
>> dead bulbs in the bayonets to 'stop electricity leaking out'.
>> Many friends of my age group have simply stopped watching TV altogether,
>> since they are old enough to know when they are being patronised and
>> treated with utter contempt.
>
>Yet they will rely on online news source!
>
Not when they know that 5G causes Covid :-)
>>
>> No one expects genuine unbiased news in the papers any more except
>> people who read the Guardian.
>
>They will be disappointed then if they rely on the Guardian.
>
How will they know to be disappointed :-)

Am 03.01.2024 um 22:24:50 Uhr schrieb Scott:

> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 20:52:06 +0100, Marco Moock
> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>
> >Am 03.01.2024 um 13:39:53 Uhr schrieb Scott:
> >
> >> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
> >> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
> >> >
> >> >> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
> >> >> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
> >> >> >> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
> >> >> >> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears
> >> >> >> millions could be left in the dark in the event of outages
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if
> >> >> >they don't provide the service anymore and the customers are
> >> >> >unwilling to switch to the replacement product?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
> >> >>
> >> >> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law
> >> >> say about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
> >> >> disproportionately affected (age being a protected
> >> >> characteristic).
> >> >
> >> >They are not excluded from the telephone service
> >>
> >> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
> >
> >Although that applies to all people, so it is not age discrimination.
> >If they need a more reliable service, they need to have an UPS at
> >home for their devices (DSL modem, local telephone exchange system,
> >etc.).
>
> You don't think there is any evidence that as a group older - or
> vulnerable - people are likely to be less conversant with technology
> than younger people?

I am aware of that, but what is against that if the carrier installs
all the stuff at home and people can simply continue using the phone
they used for the last decades?

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 10:18:49 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline switchover:
>Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send protest letters to
>telecoms providers instead amid fears millions could be left in the dark
>in the event of outages

Sounds like typical Mail shit-stirring.

On 03/01/2024 19:58, Richmond wrote:
> Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 03/01/2024 10:18, JMB99 wrote:
>>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline switchover:
>>> Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send protest letters to
>>> telecoms providers instead amid fears millions could be left in the
>>> dark in the event of outages
>>
>> Did pensioners arrive here from another planet and completely skip a
>> life of things continuously changing over time?
>>
>
> If you have dementia then you arrive here from about 20 years ago with
> no idea how to handle new things.

Oh, much worse than that.

The last thing my mother said to me was 'I have been walking in the
fields with my
mother'

That's 70 years lost.

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

On Wed, 03 Jan 2024 13:39:53 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock

>>>
>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>
>>They are not excluded from the telephone service
>
>They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>
That covers those with a wired phone. The majority have DECT, with no
tolerance for power cuts.

On Wed, 03 Jan 2024 14:44:18 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:32:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
><tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 03/01/2024 13:41, Scott wrote:
>>
>>> I heard of a dog going round the back of the TV set because he thought
>>> there was another dog inside.
>>The only time my cat took the slightest notice of it was a program
>>featuring small rodents in reeds. Water voles I think. He used to catch
>>those a lot
>
>Friend of mine said they could not allow the dog to watch any David
>Attenborough or other nature programme because if he saw a bear, he
>would have a massive dump there and then.

You've certainly won this thread!

On 03/01/2024 23:13, JMB99 wrote:
> On 03/01/2024 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> My elderly friends aunt always put things in the 13A sockets and left
>> dead bulbs in the bayonets to 'stop electricity leaking out'.
>> Many friends of my age group have simply stopped watching TV
>> altogether, since they are old enough to know when they are being
>> patronised and treated with utter contempt.
>
> Yet they will rely on online news source!
>
>
>>
>> No one expects genuine unbiased news in the papers any more except
>> people who read the Guardian.
>
> They will be disappointed then if they rely on the Guardian.
>
That was my point. I realise I phrased it rather ambiguously.

The point was that the only gullible people left are those that read the
Guardian, everybody else realises they are either reading straight down
political/commercial propaganda as dictated by the organs proprietors,
or staff, or sheer click bait comic-strip sensationalism, as dictated by
the organs advertisers.

Everyone else who actually gives a shit reads their news from a variety
of places to try and distil the highest common factor of fact from the
spin of propaganda.

But the more usual result is people simply give up on the mass media,
knowing that its completely owned and run by people who treat the
public as complete idiots.

--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Jan 2024 13:39:53 +0000, Scott
> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>>
>>> They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>
>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>>
> That covers those with a wired phone. The majority have DECT, with no
> tolerance for power cuts.
>

But telephone companies have never had responsibility to maintain service
for customers with DECT handsets. That has always rested with the customer.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 03/01/2024 16:17, Andy Burns wrote:
> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>
>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>
> poor according to who?
> poor on which network(s)?

"providers may wish to utilise information available on Ofcom’s mobile
checker".

In article <un5tst$3jqie$3@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Everyone else who actually gives a shit reads their news from a
> variety of places to try and distil the highest common factor of
> fact from the spin of propaganda.

Absolutely but for that to work you have to learn which news outlets
are often proved right and which turn out time and time again to be
pure propaganda.

> But the more usual result is people simply give up on the mass
> media, knowing that its completely owned and run by people who
> treat the public as complete idiots.

Indeed, I'm constantly surprised by the number of people who
unprovoked tell me that they've give up on the "news" its just agenda
and nonsense.

Bob.

On 04/01/2024 09:23, Ken wrote:
> Sounds like typical Mail shit-stirring.

Nothing wrong with a bit of shit-stirring but I suppose you write off
these campaigns as 'shit-stirring'?

Mercy airlift: A daring mission to transport 100 Vietnamese orphans to
safety as war ravaged the region, the Stephen Lawrence murder, and a PPE
shortage during the global Covid pandemic... the Mail campaigns that
changed the world

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9543629/The-Mail-campaigns-changed-world.html

On 04/01/2024 09:37, Tim+ wrote:
> But telephone companies have never had responsibility to maintain service
> for customers with DECT handsets. That has always rested with the customer.

There is still a socket that a standard wired phone can be plugged into.
I have a wall mounted phone near my master socket and can be quickly
plugged if needed.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 10:52:22 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 04/01/2024 09:23, Ken wrote:
>> Sounds like typical Mail shit-stirring.
>
>Nothing wrong with a bit of shit-stirring

On that happy note, the plumber has just arrived.

>but I suppose you write off
>these campaigns as 'shit-stirring'?
>
>Mercy airlift: A daring mission to transport 100 Vietnamese orphans to
>safety as war ravaged the region, the Stephen Lawrence murder, and a PPE
>shortage during the global Covid pandemic... the Mail campaigns that
>changed the world
>
>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9543629/The-Mail-campaigns-changed-world.html
>
>
>

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 06:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 19:41:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:47:35 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:25:09 +0000, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 03/01/2024 13:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
>>>>>>>>>>>>> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
>>>>>>>>>>>>> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears millions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be left in the dark in the event of outages
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if they
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't provide the service anymore and the customers are unwilling to
>>>>>>>>>>>> switch to the replacement product?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>>>>>>>>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>>>>>>>>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>>>>> https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Quote)
>>>>>>> 2.13 In December 2011, Ofcom published revised guidelines on how
>>>>>>> providers supplying voice
>>>>>>> services over Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) networks could meet the
>>>>>>> requirements of the
>>>>>>> General Conditions (the 2011 Guidance).5 The 2011 Guidance consisted
>>>>>>> of three principles
>>>>>>> which applied to both new-build and ?overlay? FTTP deployments:
>>>>>>> 1. A battery back-up should always be provided to support publicly
>>>>>>> available telephone
>>>>>>> services (PATS) provided over FTTP.
>>>>>>> 2. The minimum duration of the back-up facility should be 1 hour.
>>>>>>> 3. Providers should take appropriate steps to ensure that the needs of
>>>>>>> consumers
>>>>>>> requiring additional protection, and who depend on 999/112 to a
>>>>>>> greater extent than
>>>>>>> the majority of the population, are addressed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you envisage to comply with para 3 then?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re para 3: get a bigger battery. Fall alarm systems are battery backed and
>>>>>> therefore don?t run forever. You could devise a fall alarm that powered up
>>>>>> the modem and ONT as needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Re para 3: responsibility lies with the provider.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nope - take steps. That could simply mean telling the subscriber what they
>>>> need to purchase.
>>>
>>> 'Appropriate steps to ensure that the needs [...] are addressed'. I
>>> suppose the next stage is to find out whether the word 'addressed' has
>>> been judicially interpreted. Does is mean 'resolved' or 'considered'?
>>> The use of the word 'ensure' suggests a need for a positive outcome.
>>>
>> Currently the telco has no need to provide a fall alarm system, or a big
>> button phone, or indeed any form of subscriber equipment. All that’s
>> changing here is the possible need for different equipment. Obviously
>> there’s a need for the telco to properly and clearly inform the subscriber,
>> or their representative, of what is now needed. This latter obligation has
>> been badly handled.
>
> Are you sure 'address' is limited to 'inform'? I think we could spend
> a happy morning in court with linguistic experts debating this.
>

In reality OfCom is going to make some placatory sounding statements (I
think they already have) without actually forcing anything concrete. The
industry can’t afford to keep the copper network going for just emergency
use and I can’t see the general public willing to accept a mandatory
surcharge. Most people aren’t interested in copper for emergency use, and
once you lose the economies of scale the costs per line go up very rapidly.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 10:17:59 +0100, Marco Moock
<mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:

>Am 03.01.2024 um 22:24:50 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 20:52:06 +0100, Marco Moock
>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>
>> >Am 03.01.2024 um 13:39:53 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>> >> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
>> >> >> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
>> >> >> >> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
>> >> >> >> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears
>> >> >> >> millions could be left in the dark in the event of outages
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if
>> >> >> >they don't provide the service anymore and the customers are
>> >> >> >unwilling to switch to the replacement product?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law
>> >> >> say about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>> >> >> disproportionately affected (age being a protected
>> >> >> characteristic).
>> >> >
>> >> >They are not excluded from the telephone service
>> >>
>> >> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>> >
>> >Although that applies to all people, so it is not age discrimination.
>> >If they need a more reliable service, they need to have an UPS at
>> >home for their devices (DSL modem, local telephone exchange system,
>> >etc.).
>>
>> You don't think there is any evidence that as a group older - or
>> vulnerable - people are likely to be less conversant with technology
>> than younger people?
>
>I am aware of that, but what is against that if the carrier installs
>all the stuff at home and people can simply continue using the phone
>they used for the last decades?

I agree with you in general but there is the specific issue of the
backup time in the event of a power cut. If I were involved, I would
call a psychologist specialising in the ageing process to comment on
whether older or more vulnerable people are likely to be
disproportionately affected. This seemed to be an argument with the
ticket office closures, though I accept that ultimately the decision
was probably a political one.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 11:15:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 06:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 19:41:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:47:35 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:25:09 +0000, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 03/01/2024 13:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 12:23:19 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:41:14 +0100, Marco Moock
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.01.2024 um 10:18:49 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pensioners launch boycott of forced BT digital landline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switchover: Brits told DON'T cooperate with rollout and send
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protest letters to telecoms providers instead amid fears millions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be left in the dark in the event of outages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't the carriers simply cancel the old contracts with them if they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't provide the service anymore and the customers are unwilling to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch to the replacement product?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here in Germany it happened exactly that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>>>>>>>>>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>>>>>>>>>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Quote)
>>>>>>>> 2.13 In December 2011, Ofcom published revised guidelines on how
>>>>>>>> providers supplying voice
>>>>>>>> services over Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) networks could meet the
>>>>>>>> requirements of the
>>>>>>>> General Conditions (the 2011 Guidance).5 The 2011 Guidance consisted
>>>>>>>> of three principles
>>>>>>>> which applied to both new-build and ?overlay? FTTP deployments:
>>>>>>>> 1. A battery back-up should always be provided to support publicly
>>>>>>>> available telephone
>>>>>>>> services (PATS) provided over FTTP.
>>>>>>>> 2. The minimum duration of the back-up facility should be 1 hour.
>>>>>>>> 3. Providers should take appropriate steps to ensure that the needs of
>>>>>>>> consumers
>>>>>>>> requiring additional protection, and who depend on 999/112 to a
>>>>>>>> greater extent than
>>>>>>>> the majority of the population, are addressed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you envisage to comply with para 3 then?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Re para 3: get a bigger battery. Fall alarm systems are battery backed and
>>>>>>> therefore don?t run forever. You could devise a fall alarm that powered up
>>>>>>> the modem and ONT as needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re para 3: responsibility lies with the provider.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope - take steps. That could simply mean telling the subscriber what they
>>>>> need to purchase.
>>>>
>>>> 'Appropriate steps to ensure that the needs [...] are addressed'. I
>>>> suppose the next stage is to find out whether the word 'addressed' has
>>>> been judicially interpreted. Does is mean 'resolved' or 'considered'?
>>>> The use of the word 'ensure' suggests a need for a positive outcome.
>>>>
>>> Currently the telco has no need to provide a fall alarm system, or a big
>>> button phone, or indeed any form of subscriber equipment. All that?s
>>> changing here is the possible need for different equipment. Obviously
>>> there?s a need for the telco to properly and clearly inform the subscriber,
>>> or their representative, of what is now needed. This latter obligation has
>>> been badly handled.
>>
>> Are you sure 'address' is limited to 'inform'? I think we could spend
>> a happy morning in court with linguistic experts debating this.
>>
>In reality OfCom is going to make some placatory sounding statements (I
>think they already have) without actually forcing anything concrete. The
>industry can’t afford to keep the copper network going for just emergency
>use and I can’t see the general public willing to accept a mandatory
>surcharge. Most people aren’t interested in copper for emergency use, and
>once you lose the economies of scale the costs per line go up very rapidly.
>
I think that is the reality now but I was just thinking in a judicial
review there would be an argument to be had. Also, there is an
election coming up and which demographic is most likely to vote?