Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
analogue signals and thus copied.

What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
I am posting the very O/T request.
TIA

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 05/01/2024 10:54, Mike McMillan wrote:
> Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
> It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
> instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
> their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
> else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
> amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
> analogue signals and thus copied.
>
> What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
> ‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
> and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
> the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
> I am posting the very O/T request.
> TIA
>
>
I'm not sure whether I know more about this than you but in the spirit
of trying to look clever and important I can offer a few comments.

1. If the files are not copyable how do you plan to make the memory
sticks in the first place?

2. Does DRM (or an open source equivalent) have this capability?

3. It probably won't work these days but you could just tell people the
files are uncopyable. I know of an instance from the distant past when
people were less computer savvy where somebody refused to believe that a
protected file was readable even after being given a printout of it.

4. I assume that the intention is just to place the audio file(s) on a
stick and have them play as normal. Therefore encrypting them using the
memory stick's serial number and having an included player that will
decrypt[1] is not what you are looking for.

5. As with the previous option it is probably not appropriate to require
some kind of online access linked to an account/IP address/device serial
number to decrypt the file(s) or validate the stick's serial number at
each play.

6. You could put a serial number in each file with a big legal threat
about what will happen if duplicate (or unissued) copies are found. How
you would find them is another matter.

7. This item intentionally left blank.

8. You definitely know more than I do here but could you prevent
analogue copies by adding in some inaudible (or unnoticeable) signal
that would be picked up by recording equipment and degrade the copy?

I hope some of that has been of help. It is not my sphere of experience.

[1] I must try to remember that decrypt does not mean the same as exhume.

--
Ric

I love the suggestions from Joe! My suggestion - from a position of total, blissful ignorance - is to ditch the memory-stick idea and try streaming. That's based on my almost total inability to copy stuff from streams without indulging in an awful lot of faffing about. What's more, it will probably be cheaper than making and distributing physical material or even actually free. I would try Mixcloud as a starting point.

Nick
(jumping in from novabbs which might be a viable alternative for Googlerats when GG[1] stops serving mid-Feb)
[1]No that's not a plot prediction for Grey Gables

Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 10:54, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
>> It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
>> instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
>> their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
>> else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
>> amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
>> analogue signals and thus copied.
>>
>> What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
>> ‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
>> and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
>> the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
>> I am posting the very O/T request.
>> TIA
>>
>>
> I'm not sure whether I know more about this than you but in the spirit
> of trying to look clever and important I can offer a few comments.
>
> 1. If the files are not copyable how do you plan to make the memory
> sticks in the first place?

:-) The ‘flag’ would be added during the transfer of files to the USB
stick.
>
> 2. Does DRM (or an open source equivalent) have this capability?
As I understand it, lemon juice is stronger.
>
> 3. It probably won't work these days but you could just tell people the
> files are uncopyable. I know of an instance from the distant past when
> people were less computer savvy where somebody refused to believe that a
> protected file was readable even after being given a printout of it.
As you say, they are savvy now.
>
> 4. I assume that the intention is just to place the audio file(s) on a
> stick and have them play as normal. Therefore encrypting them using the
> memory stick's serial number and having an included player that will
> decrypt[1] is not what you are looking for.
That’s right, it is not.
>
> 5. As with the previous option it is probably not appropriate to require
> some kind of online access linked to an account/IP address/device serial
> number to decrypt the file(s) or validate the stick's serial number at
> each play.
Again, No.
>
> 6. You could put a serial number in each file with a big legal threat
> about what will happen if duplicate (or unissued) copies are found. How
> you would find them is another matter.
Ha-Ha-Ha, look out! Low flying pork!
>
> 7. This item intentionally left blank.
Not answered either.
>
> 8. You definitely know more than I do here but could you prevent
> analogue copies by adding in some inaudible (or unnoticeable) signal
> that would be picked up by recording equipment and degrade the copy?
They are digital on the stick.
>
> I hope some of that has been of help. It is not my sphere of experience.
Nor mine really - I have always trusted people too much.
>
> [1] I must try to remember that decrypt does not mean the same as exhume.
> ;-)))

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

nick <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> I love the suggestions from Joe! My suggestion - from a position of
> total, blissful ignorance - is to ditch the memory-stick idea and try
> streaming. That's based on my almost total inability to copy stuff from
> streams without indulging in an awful lot of faffing about. What's more,
> it will probably be cheaper than making and distributing physical
> material or even actually free. I would try Mixcloud as a starting point.
>
> Nick
> (jumping in from novabbs which might be a viable alternative for
> Googlerats when GG[1] stops serving mid-Feb)
> [1]No that's not a plot prediction for Grey Gables
>

The ‘customer’ (the NHS) does not want to stream them for their own
technical reason they have not disclosed.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 05/01/2024 10:54, Mike McMillan wrote:
> Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
> It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
> instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
> their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
> else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
> amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
> analogue signals and thus copied.
>
> What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
> ‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
> and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
> the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
> I am posting the very O/T request.
> TIA
>
>

I'm going to give this a shot, but be warned it will be in unix/linux
speak and a bit vague because it's a long time since I've been close to
such things.

I think the only way to prevent copying of the files is to prevent
anyone by the owner of the files from beiing able to read them. (unix
permissions r**------). BUt that defeats the object so you need a
program which runs as the user and internally changes its identity to
that of the file's owner possibly with su (substitute user) or chuser.
chroot might also have a part to play in isolating the process from the
rest of the filestore.

Probably not foolproof (what is?) and needs some refinement but I think
there's the germ of an idea there.

john

On 05/01/2024 16:25, Mike McMillan wrote:
> Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
>> On 05/01/2024 10:54, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>> Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
>>> It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
>>> instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
>>> their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
>>> else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
>>> amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
>>> analogue signals and thus copied.
>>>
>>> What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
>>> ‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
>>> and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
>>> the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
>>> I am posting the very O/T request.
>>> TIA
>>>
>>>
>> I'm not sure whether I know more about this than you but in the spirit
>> of trying to look clever and important I can offer a few comments.
>>
>> 1. If the files are not copyable how do you plan to make the memory
>> sticks in the first place?
>
> :-) The ‘flag’ would be added during the transfer of files to the USB
> stick.
>>
>> 2. Does DRM (or an open source equivalent) have this capability?
> As I understand it, lemon juice is stronger.
>>
>> 3. It probably won't work these days but you could just tell people the
>> files are uncopyable. I know of an instance from the distant past when
>> people were less computer savvy where somebody refused to believe that a
>> protected file was readable even after being given a printout of it.
> As you say, they are savvy now.
>>
>> 4. I assume that the intention is just to place the audio file(s) on a
>> stick and have them play as normal. Therefore encrypting them using the
>> memory stick's serial number and having an included player that will
>> decrypt[1] is not what you are looking for.
> That’s right, it is not.
>>
>> 5. As with the previous option it is probably not appropriate to require
>> some kind of online access linked to an account/IP address/device serial
>> number to decrypt the file(s) or validate the stick's serial number at
>> each play.
> Again, No.
>>
>> 6. You could put a serial number in each file with a big legal threat
>> about what will happen if duplicate (or unissued) copies are found. How
>> you would find them is another matter.
> Ha-Ha-Ha, look out! Low flying pork!
>>
>> 7. This item intentionally left blank.
> Not answered either.
>>
>> 8. You definitely know more than I do here but could you prevent
>> analogue copies by adding in some inaudible (or unnoticeable) signal
>> that would be picked up by recording equipment and degrade the copy?
> They are digital on the stick.

I was meaning "off air" recording.
>>
>> I hope some of that has been of help. It is not my sphere of experience.
> Nor mine really - I have always trusted people too much.
>>
>> [1] I must try to remember that decrypt does not mean the same as exhume.
>> ;-)))
>
>
Well, we are making progress. We've eliminated a few options. It sounds
rather like you want something like www.nexcopy.com/usb-copy-protection
but you will undoubtedly say it doesn't as that requires the stick to be
inserted into a Windows or Mac contraption which won't suit everybody.

--
Ric

John Ashby <johnashby20@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 10:54, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
>> It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
>> instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
>> their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
>> else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
>> amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
>> analogue signals and thus copied.
>>
>> What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
>> ‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
>> and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
>> the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
>> I am posting the very O/T request.
>> TIA
>>
>>
>
> I'm going to give this a shot, but be warned it will be in unix/linux
> speak and a bit vague because it's a long time since I've been close to
> such things.
>
> I think the only way to prevent copying of the files is to prevent
> anyone by the owner of the files from beiing able to read them. (unix
> permissions r**------). BUt that defeats the object so you need a
> program which runs as the user and internally changes its identity to
> that of the file's owner possibly with su (substitute user) or chuser.
> chroot might also have a part to play in isolating the process from the
> rest of the filestore.
>
> Probably not foolproof (what is?) and needs some refinement but I think
> there's the germ of an idea there.
>
> john
>

So you think such an idea might have ‘legs’?

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 16:25, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
>>> On 05/01/2024 10:54, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>>> Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
>>>> It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
>>>> instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
>>>> their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
>>>> else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
>>>> amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
>>>> analogue signals and thus copied.
>>>>
>>>> What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
>>>> ‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
>>>> and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
>>>> the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
>>>> I am posting the very O/T request.
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm not sure whether I know more about this than you but in the spirit
>>> of trying to look clever and important I can offer a few comments.
>>>
>>> 1. If the files are not copyable how do you plan to make the memory
>>> sticks in the first place?
>>
>> :-) The ‘flag’ would be added during the transfer of files to the USB
>> stick.
>>>
>>> 2. Does DRM (or an open source equivalent) have this capability?
>> As I understand it, lemon juice is stronger.
>>>
>>> 3. It probably won't work these days but you could just tell people the
>>> files are uncopyable. I know of an instance from the distant past when
>>> people were less computer savvy where somebody refused to believe that a
>>> protected file was readable even after being given a printout of it.
>> As you say, they are savvy now.
>>>
>>> 4. I assume that the intention is just to place the audio file(s) on a
>>> stick and have them play as normal. Therefore encrypting them using the
>>> memory stick's serial number and having an included player that will
>>> decrypt[1] is not what you are looking for.
>> That’s right, it is not.
>>>
>>> 5. As with the previous option it is probably not appropriate to require
>>> some kind of online access linked to an account/IP address/device serial
>>> number to decrypt the file(s) or validate the stick's serial number at
>>> each play.
>> Again, No.
>>>
>>> 6. You could put a serial number in each file with a big legal threat
>>> about what will happen if duplicate (or unissued) copies are found. How
>>> you would find them is another matter.
>> Ha-Ha-Ha, look out! Low flying pork!
>>>
>>> 7. This item intentionally left blank.
>> Not answered either.
>>>
>>> 8. You definitely know more than I do here but could you prevent
>>> analogue copies by adding in some inaudible (or unnoticeable) signal
>>> that would be picked up by recording equipment and degrade the copy?
>> They are digital on the stick.
>
> I was meaning "off air" recording.
>>>
>>> I hope some of that has been of help. It is not my sphere of experience.
>> Nor mine really - I have always trusted people too much.
>>>
>>> [1] I must try to remember that decrypt does not mean the same as exhume.
>>> ;-)))
>>
>>
> Well, we are making progress. We've eliminated a few options. It sounds
> rather like you want something like www.nexcopy.com/usb-copy-protection
> but you will undoubtedly say it doesn't as that requires the stick to be
> inserted into a Windows or Mac contraption which won't suit everybody.
>
>

Quite! I suspect that the users might be using any one of a number of the
myriad devices available these day -might be a form of tablet or phone -
laptop - who knows?

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 16:25, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
>>> On 05/01/2024 10:54, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>>> Somerat may know more about this sort of thing than I do, so here’s hoping:
>>>> It is desirable to hand out USB memory sticks containing audio files for
>>>> instruction so that the users can listen as many time as required during
>>>> their treatment but the files are not to be copyable. Now before anything
>>>> else is said, yes, I know there are people who regard such things as an
>>>> amusing challenge and also that any audio may be played and extracted as
>>>> analogue signals and thus copied.
>>>>
>>>> What I am looking for is some type of copy prohibit arrangement so that
>>>> ‘normal decent people’ are unable to copy the content of the USB stick
>>>> and/or hand it to others. I have a feeling that I will be on to a loser in
>>>> the idealistic request but just in case Anyrat does know of such a system,
>>>> I am posting the very O/T request.
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm not sure whether I know more about this than you but in the spirit
>>> of trying to look clever and important I can offer a few comments.
>>>
>>> 1. If the files are not copyable how do you plan to make the memory
>>> sticks in the first place?
>>
>> :-) The ‘flag’ would be added during the transfer of files to the USB
>> stick.
>>>
>>> 2. Does DRM (or an open source equivalent) have this capability?
>> As I understand it, lemon juice is stronger.
>>>
>>> 3. It probably won't work these days but you could just tell people the
>>> files are uncopyable. I know of an instance from the distant past when
>>> people were less computer savvy where somebody refused to believe that a
>>> protected file was readable even after being given a printout of it.
>> As you say, they are savvy now.
>>>
>>> 4. I assume that the intention is just to place the audio file(s) on a
>>> stick and have them play as normal. Therefore encrypting them using the
>>> memory stick's serial number and having an included player that will
>>> decrypt[1] is not what you are looking for.
>> That’s right, it is not.
>>>
>>> 5. As with the previous option it is probably not appropriate to require
>>> some kind of online access linked to an account/IP address/device serial
>>> number to decrypt the file(s) or validate the stick's serial number at
>>> each play.
>> Again, No.
>>>
>>> 6. You could put a serial number in each file with a big legal threat
>>> about what will happen if duplicate (or unissued) copies are found. How
>>> you would find them is another matter.
>> Ha-Ha-Ha, look out! Low flying pork!
>>>
>>> 7. This item intentionally left blank.
>> Not answered either.
>>>
>>> 8. You definitely know more than I do here but could you prevent
>>> analogue copies by adding in some inaudible (or unnoticeable) signal
>>> that would be picked up by recording equipment and degrade the copy?
>> They are digital on the stick.
>
> I was meaning "off air" recording.
>>>
>>> I hope some of that has been of help. It is not my sphere of experience.
>> Nor mine really - I have always trusted people too much.
>>>
>>> [1] I must try to remember that decrypt does not mean the same as exhume.
>>> ;-)))
>>
>>
> Well, we are making progress. We've eliminated a few options. It sounds
> rather like you want something like www.nexcopy.com/usb-copy-protection
> but you will undoubtedly say it doesn't as that requires the stick to be
> inserted into a Windows or Mac contraption which won't suit everybody.
>
>

I’m sorry to be rather unhelpful, secretive and vague but there is a need
to protect ‘client confidentiality’ so to speak.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 16:28:04 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
<toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:

>nick <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> I love the suggestions from Joe! My suggestion - from a position of
>> total, blissful ignorance - is to ditch the memory-stick idea and try
>> streaming. That's based on my almost total inability to copy stuff from
>> streams without indulging in an awful lot of faffing about. What's more,
>> it will probably be cheaper than making and distributing physical
>> material or even actually free. I would try Mixcloud as a starting point.
>>
>> Nick
>> (jumping in from novabbs which might be a viable alternative for
>> Googlerats when GG[1] stops serving mid-Feb)
>> [1]No that's not a plot prediction for Grey Gables
>>
>
>The ‘customer’ (the NHS) does not want to stream them for their own
>technical reason they have not disclosed.

The NHS?

Why didn't you tell us this before?

Okay Mike, this is what you do:

First you tell them your name isn't Michael, it's Michelle.
Then you say that you won't even look at the problem until they
deposit £29M into your Isle of Man bank account.
When you are sure that they've done that, just send them a bunch of
reject USB sticks.

Job's a good 'un.

Nick