I paid the ridiculous £460 [1] for the return ferry fares for the Island
yesterday, so thoughts go to where we should view the practice week and
races on the Saturday and Sunday?
We arrive on Monday 27th, mid afternoon, go home on Sunday 2nd in the
evening.
A pal has recommended Cronk-y-voddy for the full on top speed
experience, any other places we should go to?
I always wanted to go to Ballaugh Bridge to see the flying bikes, would
that be very busy?
Thanks
Alan.

[ The 'turn up on the day' fares for the Eurotunnel look reasonable
compared to the Steam Packet in TT weeks.]

On 01/02/2024 11:01, Alan Lee wrote:
> I paid the ridiculous £460 [1] for the return ferry fares for the Island
> yesterday, so thoughts go to where we should view the practice week and
> races on the Saturday and Sunday?
> We arrive on Monday 27th, mid afternoon, go home on Sunday 2nd in the
> evening.
> A pal has recommended Cronk-y-voddy for the full on top speed
> experience, any other places we should go to?
> I always wanted to go to Ballaugh Bridge to see the flying bikes, would
> that be very busy?

Busy yes at Ballaugh - but good to watch.

Other places I have had good viewing were on my first visit in 2005 from
the campsite at Glenlough. It was seeing bikes coming over the brow of
the hill and then gone in a fraction of a second were what sold the TT
to me.

Other 'off the beaten track' places where things aren't quite so busy
were the path a little up Snaefell from the Bungalow (binoculars
recommended! - especially good for the sidecar races) and anywhere
around Sulby or Ginger Hall.

Then there is the pub garden at Union Mills...

But anywhere is good!

HTH

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 11:01:18 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:

<links fingers, stretches arms palms out>

>I paid the ridiculous £460 [1] for the return ferry fares for the Island
>yesterday,
See the bottom of this post for my response to this!

>so thoughts go to where we should view the practice week and
>races on the Saturday and Sunday?
Where will you be staying? It's only a small island, but this can
make a difference

>We arrive on Monday 27th, mid afternoon, go home on Sunday 2nd in the
>evening.
Practice on Monday 27th is afternoon, so you'll struggle to catch much
of that session, fresh off the boat with the roads closed. You'll
only see two race days (Sat and Sun), and for the Sunday you'll need
to be somewhere you can get to the sea terminal for you ferry home
(unless it's a very late sailing). Spend practice week checking
places out, and use the knowledge to plan your race day viewing.c

>A pal has recommended Cronk-y-voddy for the full on top speed
>experience, any other places we should go to?
This is a very good recommendation. I don't know where the
'restricted areas' are nowadays, but park in the Ballabrooie Road
(Cronk-y-voddy crossroads) and walk in the field to the kink at the
end of the straight. I last watched there in the mid-80s, and it
still makes me shiver!

>I always wanted to go to Ballaugh Bridge to see the flying bikes, would
>that be very busy?
It'll be moderately busy, cos there's a pub there. For me, it's not
that exiting, being so slow (in TT terms), and once I've seen a
handful of bikes pop off a jump at 30~40 mph, I've seen enough. But
you might love it.

OK, here's a long but (obviously) non-exhaustive list. For me the TT
is all about the speed, so my favourite spots are always the fast
places. You don't so much see the bikes as feel them...

FACILITIES: If the weather is questionable and/or you want a
pub/food/drink/loos:

- The Railway, Union Mills: decent pub, usually has food on, excellent
raised viewing beer garden, so you look down on the riders as they
come in to the Union Mills complex

(I wouldn't bother with The Crosby or the Hawthorn, as they're just on
straights)

- Glen Helen: the pub is long gone, but there's a decent snack place
with suprisingly good food. You can hear the bikes come howling up
the valley, then watch them brake for the tight uphill left hander and
then accelerate up the hill to Sarah's Cottage

- The Black Dub: don't know anything about the facilities here, as
it's a "pop-up pub". Great place to watch, tho - medium fast through
the tight and twistiy Glen Helen section

- Ginger Hall: popular spot, but lots of room with a good pub. Watch
the bikes accelrate hard out of Sulby Bridge and then just roll off
and throw it in to the left hander, shoulder (almost) against the
railings

- Parliament Square: busy, but loads of facilities (everything Ramsey
can offer!). Very slow, but the way some of the riders (I'm looking
at you, M Dunlop) have the bike sideways on the brakes is worth
seeing. Also, yours truly will be running the marshaling position
there.

- Creg Ny Baa: cliched to hell, but there's a reason for that - just
one of the most iconic TT views. Gets very busy, but room to walk up
the hillside, and a good pub, with viewing spots (for an extra fee, I
believe). Handy for Douglas. (you can use the back road to get
to/from even when roads are closed)

- Grandstand: you have to pay for tickets, and it's not that exiting,
but maybe worth it to see the pit stops and pre-race activity. For
races, get there early to watch the bikes get pushed up onto the
Glencrutchery Road, and form up in starting order, and then get the
tap on the shoulder as each starts

SELF-SUFFICIENT: if you're self-supporitng for food/drink/loos:

- Bottom of Bray Hill. Will be very busy, but there really is nothing
else like this on eartch. Bikes doing 170+mph down a suburban street
and then through the kink at the bottom

- Braddan Bridge: The church sets up benches in its grounds (and
probably ask for a few quid). Fairly slow, but you'll get a good view

- Top of Barragarrow: just breathtaking. Unbelievably spectacular

- Bottom of Barragarrow: see Top of Barragarrow

-Rhencullen: will get busy, and nowadays you probably have to pay
something for a viewing spot. But almost certainly worth it

Alpine: Park in the Orrisdale Road, and find a spot in the hedge.
Mind-blowingly fast.

MOUNTAIN: If the weather forecast is for sunshine, decent temeratures
and not too windy (hey, it was like this for the whole TT last year),
then have at least one day on the mountain, if you can. But be well
organised - most spots, you're stuck there for the day, up high, out
in the weather...

- Bungalow which does have facilities at the cafe. Also, you can use
the Tholt-y-Will road to get down to Ginger Hall, so you can escape if
you want (tho you'll still be stuck on the inside of the circuit until
roads open). From the Bungalow you can walk over the footbridge and
up the hill a bit, or walk round to Bungalow Bridge.

- the Gooseneck, which is accessible via the Hibernia back road, so
you're not stuck there, either. Get's busy, but is a classic viewing
spot

- Mountain Box: watch the riders come up the Mountain Mile, absolutely
pinned, and try not to roll-off through the ever tightening RH kinks,
before braking and dropping a couple of gears for the sequence of 4
left-handers itself (miss the 1st apex, hit the 2nd one, miss the
3rd, hit the 4th, is the way to do it)

- Black Hut: watch them come through Casey's as fast as they dare
(it's *really* fast, but not quite flat), and then down one (I'd
guess) and peel into the left before the 4 right-handers of the
Verandah

- Brandywell: the highest point of the course, and quite a difficult
and scary corner (always scared me, anyway). There's a back road from
here which can take you down to the top of Barragarrow, and even to
Braddan Bridge or St Ninians, if you want. You'll always be on the
inside of the circuit, tho, so stuck until roads open

- Sarahs Cottage/Keppelgate: Watch the bikes all the way from Duke's
(the 32nd) and Windy, disappear out of sight and then burst into view
again through the 33rd, before braking hard for the right/left at
Keppelgate, and then heading down to the Creg

>[1] The 'turn up on the day' fares for the Eurotunnel look reasonable
>compared to the Steam Packet in TT weeks.]
<straight bat>
Why do you think this is 'ridiculous'? How much do you think it
should be?
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

Alan Lee wrote:

> I paid the ridiculous £460 [1] for the return ferry fares for the
> Island yesterday

You should try going to the Pile of Shite in the summer - can be north
of £200 for a 25 mile return as opposed to 90 miles round trip to the
IoM.

On 01/02/2024 12:01 pm, Alan Lee wrote:
>I paid the ridiculous £460 [1] for the return ferry fares for the Island
>yesterday, so thoughts go to where we should view the practice week and
>races on the Saturday and Sunday?
>We arrive on Monday 27th, mid afternoon, go home on Sunday 2nd in the
>evening.
>A pal has recommended Cronk-y-voddy for the full on top speed
>experience, any other places we should go to?
>I always wanted to go to Ballaugh Bridge to see the flying bikes, would
>that be very busy?
>Thanks
>Alan.
>
>
>[ The 'turn up on the day' fares for the Eurotunnel look reasonable
>compared to the Steam Packet in TT weeks.]

One to add to Champ's excellent list.

Gorse Lea. You can get to and from it when the roads are closed via a tiny
lane off the road from Ballacraine back towards Foxdale. Tea and cakes and
a loo.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/vZteBgERYUyDqBm57
--
Huh

Pete Fisher <degrees72@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/02/2024 12:01 pm, Alan Lee wrote:
>>I paid the ridiculous £460 [1] for the return ferry fares for the Island
>>yesterday, so thoughts go to where we should view the practice week and
>>races on the Saturday and Sunday?

Slight topic shift (still about the TT):

https://www.autosport.com/roadracing/news/embargo-1230-uk-isle-of-man-tt-organisers-introduce-important-competitor-safety-initiative/10571284/

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 11:01:21 AM UTC, Alan Lee wrote:
> A pal has recommended Cronk-y-voddy for the full on top speed
> experience, any other places we should go to?

I liked Signposts for the "eeeeeeeeEEEEEEOOOOOWWWWW-Skreeeeeeeeee-clunk-clunk-clunk"
followed by furious back-paddling and attempts to bump start by those who missed
the braking point.

But that's probably just me.

--
WUN

On 1 Feb 2024 17:48:27 GMT, Pete Fisher <degrees72@gmail.com> wrote:

>One to add to Champ's excellent list.
Thanks

>Gorse Lea. You can get to and from it when the roads are closed via a tiny
> lane off the road from Ballacraine back towards Foxdale. Tea and cakes and
> a loo.
>
>https://maps.app.goo.gl/vZteBgERYUyDqBm57

Ooh yes, Gorse Lea is on of those corners that separates the TT
winners from the midfielders. It's incredibly fast...but not quite
flat out.

As I say in my tour bus commentary - the likes of me might go through
there at 140...but Michael Dunlop could be doing 160 or more, and he
keeps that extra 20mph all the way down the next straight.

I didn't actually know about the access via the back lkane - many
thanks!
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 01/02/2024 14:42, Champ wrote:
> - Sarahs Cottage/Keppelgate: Watch the bikes all the way from Duke's
> (the 32nd) and Windy, disappear out of sight and then burst into view
> again through the 33rd, before braking hard for the right/left at
> Keppelgate, and then heading down to the Creg
>
>> [1] The 'turn up on the day' fares for the Eurotunnel look reasonable
>> compared to the Steam Packet in TT weeks.]
> <straight bat>
> Why do you think this is 'ridiculous'? How much do you think it
> should be?

Thanks very much for all of those pointers, if it all goes well, we'll
get a really good introduction to the TT, we intend to travel around to
a different spot every day, so this list (and what others have posted)
will help choose spots.
We're staying at an apartment on North Shore in Douglas, so close enough
for the 20:45 ferry on the Sunday evening.

As for the ferry, I would have thought £100-150 each way would be
sufficient, we generally pay £80 rtn,or less, for the Channel, Mull was
£35 return last year (ok, only 45 mins), even Cairnryan to Belfast was
only £175 return. £460 is too much, it's an indulgence for us, we just
can't afford to pay that price often, I know its a brilliant experience,
but there is a point when you can think I can have 3 nights in France ,
incl. ferries, for the cost of the ferry to the IOM.

Thanks all.
Alan.

Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote in
news:upijuk$2j3q4$1@dont-email.me:

> On 01/02/2024 14:42, Champ wrote:
>> - Sarahs Cottage/Keppelgate: Watch the bikes all the way from Duke's
>> (the 32nd) and Windy, disappear out of sight and then burst into view
>> again through the 33rd, before braking hard for the right/left at
>> Keppelgate, and then heading down to the Creg
>>
>>> [1] The 'turn up on the day' fares for the Eurotunnel look
>>> reasonable compared to the Steam Packet in TT weeks.]
>> <straight bat>
>> Why do you think this is 'ridiculous'? How much do you think it
>> should be?
>
>
> Thanks very much for all of those pointers, if it all goes well, we'll
> get a really good introduction to the TT, we intend to travel around
> to a different spot every day, so this list (and what others have
> posted) will help choose spots.
> We're staying at an apartment on North Shore in Douglas, so close
> enough for the 20:45 ferry on the Sunday evening.
>
> As for the ferry, I would have thought £100-150 each way would be
> sufficient, we generally pay £80 rtn,or less, for the Channel, Mull
> was £35 return last year (ok, only 45 mins), even Cairnryan to
> Belfast was only £175 return. £460 is too much, it's an indulgence
> for us, we just can't afford to pay that price often, I know its a
> brilliant experience, but there is a point when you can think I can
> have 3 nights in France , incl. ferries, for the cost of the ferry to
> the IOM.
>

SP have a very short season to cover their overheads for a very small
fleet.

Ferries to Scottish Islands are heavily subsidised like buses.

Dover has several ferry operators as they have economy of scale and the
opportunity to fill spare space on car decks with "non-urgent"
containers on a bogey. Newhaven is a freight line that takes passenger
vehicles as a perk. Same with ferries to Belfast, primarily freight all
year with tourist traffic a bonus. NI population nearly 2 million which
drives a lot of freight, compared to IOM population of 85,000. Plus a
lot of traffic through Belfast will go from Scotland into Ireland and
maybe other EU countries due to expansion of ferry services from Dublin
& Rosslare[1]

I don't think your comparisons are valid due to the unique situation of
IoM.

[1] have you explored using Ireland as a land bridge to NW France or
Spain from Scotland?. I have heard it can be cheaper than travelling
down through England.

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 12:47:35 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>I don't think your comparisons are valid due to the unique situation of
>IoM.

*ding*
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 11:33:37 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:

>On 01/02/2024 14:42, Champ wrote:

>>> [1] The 'turn up on the day' fares for the Eurotunnel look reasonable
>>> compared to the Steam Packet in TT weeks.]
>> <straight bat>

>> Why do you think this is 'ridiculous'? How much do you think it
>> should be?

>As for the ferry, I would have thought £100-150 each way would be
>sufficient,
It's barely that cheap in the winter!

>we generally pay £80 rtn,or less, for the Channel
Yeah, everyone bangs on about the channel crossing. Which is only ~20
miles, compared to ~65, and serves *millions* of passengers each year,
and so has massive economies of scale in comparison

>Mull was £35 return last year (ok, only 45 mins),
Are you fucking kidding me? A tiny hop across a sea loch? And, as
Wessie says, subsidised by the Scottish government

>even Cairnryan to Belfast was only £175 return.
Look at a map, and look how short that crossing is, too. And, again,
serving many, many more people

>£460 is too much, it's an indulgence for us, we just
>can't afford to pay that price often, I know its a brilliant experience,
>but there is a point when you can think I can have 3 nights in France ,
>incl. ferries, for the cost of the ferry to the IOM.
Clearly only you can decide what it's worth you spending your money
on, and what represents value to you. But you should realise that
every ferry ticket to the TT could be sold 2 or 3 times over, so they
could probably charge twice as much, and still the boats would be
full. That is the essence of capitalism - you charge what the market
will bear. The ferry service is a lifeline to the island, and has
to run all year round. So I'm not apologising for it making money
when it can.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 02/02/2024 12:47, wessie wrote:
> Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote in
> news:upijuk$2j3q4$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 01/02/2024 14:42, Champ wrote:
<snip>
>
> [1] have you explored using Ireland as a land bridge to NW France or
> Spain from Scotland?. I have heard it can be cheaper than travelling
> down through England.

Only reasonable pre-season.
While we were on our little cycle ride last year, at one point we
thought about carrying on to Santander or Bilbao and getting the Ferry
to Ireland.

Before June 19th, price seemed reasonable.

But to do that we would have had to up our pace somewhat more than we
felt enjoyable.

From June 19th it became 699 euros. One way. And this was with push bikes!

>
>
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 02/02/2024 11:33, Alan Lee wrote:
>
>Thanks very much for all of those pointers, if it all goes well, we'll
>get a really good introduction to the TT, we intend to travel around to
>a different spot every day, so this list (and what others have posted)
>will help choose spots.
>We're staying at an apartment on North Shore in Douglas, so close enough
>for the 20:45 ferry on the Sunday evening.
>
>As for the ferry, I would have thought £100-150 each way would be
>sufficient, we generally pay £80 rtn,or less, for the Channel, Mull was
>£35 return last year (ok, only 45 mins), even Cairnryan to Belfast was
>only £175 return. £460 is too much, it's an indulgence for us, we just
>can't afford to pay that price often, I know its a brilliant experience,
>but there is a point when you can think I can have 3 nights in France ,
>incl. ferries, for the cost of the ferry to the IOM.

Agreed it makes no sense - neither does the fact that a longer stay costs
more on the ferry. Does the island get further away sometimes?
WTAF?

Chris
--
XV750SE & GS550T

YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:upisl0$2kh3g$1@dont-email.me:

> On 02/02/2024 12:47, wessie wrote:
>> Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote in
>> news:upijuk$2j3q4$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 01/02/2024 14:42, Champ wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> [1] have you explored using Ireland as a land bridge to NW France or
>> Spain from Scotland?. I have heard it can be cheaper than travelling
>> down through England.
>
> Only reasonable pre-season.
> While we were on our little cycle ride last year, at one point we
> thought about carrying on to Santander or Bilbao and getting the Ferry
> to Ireland.
>
> Before June 19th, price seemed reasonable.
>
> But to do that we would have had to up our pace somewhat more than we
> felt enjoyable.
>
> From June 19th it became 699 euros. One way. And this was with push
> bikes!
>

much the same with any crossing over Biscay - price rockets from mid June
to mid Sept. Go last week of September and it is cheaper and usually ideal
riding weather in mid 20s C into mid October.

On 02/02/2024 12:59, Champ wrote:
>> £460 is too much, it's an indulgence for us, we just
>> can't afford to pay that price often, I know its a brilliant experience,
>> but there is a point when you can think I can have 3 nights in France ,
>> incl. ferries, for the cost of the ferry to the IOM.
> Clearly only you can decide what it's worth you spending your money
> on, and what represents value to you. But you should realise that
> every ferry ticket to the TT could be sold 2 or 3 times over, so they
> could probably charge twice as much, and still the boats would be
> full. That is the essence of capitalism - you charge what the market
> will bear. The ferry service is a lifeline to the island, and has
> to run all year round. So I'm not apologising for it making money
> when it can.

Despite my other comment about length of stay affecting price, I really
do understand your point here and agree the validity of it.
I also see that adding another '2 or 3 ferries' probably isn't an easy
option - but that would be advantageous all round if it were feasible.

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 02/02/2024 17:25, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
> On 02/02/2024 12:59, Champ wrote:
>>> £460 is too much, it's an indulgence for us, we just
>>> can't afford to pay that price often, I know its a brilliant experience,
>>> but there is a point when you can think I can have 3 nights in France ,
>>> incl. ferries, for the cost of the ferry to the IOM.
>> Clearly only you can decide what it's worth you spending your money
>> on, and what represents value to you.  But you should realise that
>> every ferry ticket to the TT could be sold 2 or 3 times over, so they
>> could probably charge twice as much, and still the boats would be
>> full.  That is the essence of capitalism - you charge what the market
>> will bear.    The ferry service is a lifeline to the island, and has
>> to run all year round.  So I'm not apologising for it making money
>> when it can.
>
> Despite my other comment about length of stay affecting price, I really
> do understand your point here and agree the validity of it.
> I also see that adding another '2 or 3 ferries' probably isn't an easy
> option - but that would be advantageous all round if it were feasible.

I seem to recall a Scottish chap trying out a low-cost jet-ski option a
couple of years back.

Ah, yes here it is.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-55310647>

The downsides are, presumably, getting rather wet and the risk of being
sent to Rwanda at the end of the return trip.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 2/2/2024 3:33 AM, Alan Lee wrote:
>
> As for the ferry, I would have thought £100-150 each way would be
> sufficient, ... £460 is too much, it's an indulgence for us, we just
> can't afford to pay that price often, I know its a brilliant experience,
> but ...

You never know what that experience can be. It can really surprise you:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 02/02/2024 14:26, wessie wrote:
> YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:upisl0$2kh3g$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 02/02/2024 12:47, wessie wrote:
>>> Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote in
>>> news:upijuk$2j3q4$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 01/02/2024 14:42, Champ wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> [1] have you explored using Ireland as a land bridge to NW France or
>>> Spain from Scotland?. I have heard it can be cheaper than travelling
>>> down through England.
>>
>> Only reasonable pre-season.
>> While we were on our little cycle ride last year, at one point we
>> thought about carrying on to Santander or Bilbao and getting the Ferry
>> to Ireland.
>>
>> Before June 19th, price seemed reasonable.
>>
>> But to do that we would have had to up our pace somewhat more than we
>> felt enjoyable.
>>
>> From June 19th it became 699 euros. One way. And this was with push
>> bikes!
>>
>
> much the same with any crossing over Biscay - price rockets from mid June
> to mid Sept. Go last week of September and it is cheaper and usually ideal
> riding weather in mid 20s C into mid October.
>

Yeahm when I did my jaunt to Alicante in 2021 the price of the ferry
back from Santander on Oct 10th was a bargain.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/02/2024 14:42, Champ wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2024 11:01:18 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> [1] The 'turn up on the day' fares for the Eurotunnel look reasonable
>> compared to the Steam Packet in TT weeks.]
> <straight bat>
> Why do you think this is 'ridiculous'? How much do you think it
> should be?

If one were to confuse a Holyhead-Dublin ferry into sailing north
instead of west, the fare would be around £120 each way.