Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).

What can one use to prove one's identity?

Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).

Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements, etc.,
and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
statement but it takes too long.

I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could bite
my cheek and spit in their face.

[0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other was
born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can buy
anyone's certificate from the Registry.

--
fluffycat

fluffycat <fluffycat@musatelier.eu> wrote in news:l5qtnoFl24jU1@mid.individual.net:

> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>
> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>
> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>
> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements, etc.,
> and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
> statement but it takes too long.
>
> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could bite
> my cheek and spit in their face.
>
> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other was
> born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can buy
> anyone's certificate from the Registry.
>

I was a signatory for DBS checks for foster carers before retiring.

Official details are here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dbs-identity-checking-guidelines/id-checking-guidelines-for-standardenhanced-dbs-check-applications-from-1-july-2021

I used to be pragmatic, especially for renewals where I had known
people at the same address since the last one 3 year previously.

For newbies being assessed I would have to be more strict.

I have also been through this myself recently as selling and
buying a house means proving you are a real person eligible to
transact. There is no logic to it. A 3 month old bit of paper
only shows you had the funds 3 months ago whereas a phone app
shows the balance today.

The basic requirement is one photo ID so passport check then 2
others inc at least 1 address verification

Birth certificate check (has to be issued no later than 1 year
after birth so your concern is not applicable)

Driving licence can be used for photo ID or address, not both but
no good here

Any document with current address from:

a financial entity
e.g. bank, building soc, pension statement, mortgage, credit card,
student loan

Utility bill, gas electric, landline, water

Council tax bill

Gun licence

NHS letter

Any letter from a government department e.g. national insurance
number, pension, universal credit, job centre, P45, P60, tax code

fluffycat <fluffycat@musatelier.eu> wrote:
> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>
> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>
> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>
> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements, etc.,
> and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
> statement but it takes too long.

There are no rules, every organisation makes them up independently.

Most places have a 'list A, list B' system where you have to show at least
one from each list - A is for proof of ID, B is for proof of address, and
you can't use the same document for both A and B.

Asking $officialdom for their list of approved ID is the only way.

When you have the list, don't be afraid to go back to them and say 'I don't
have any of those'. Tis a route of much pain and suffering, but the only
way they'll learn.

On 22/03/2024 10:52, Theo wrote:
> fluffycat <fluffycat@musatelier.eu> wrote:
>> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>>
>> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>>
>> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
>> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
>> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>>
>> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements, etc.,
>> and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
>> statement but it takes too long.
>
> There are no rules, every organisation makes them up independently.
>
> Most places have a 'list A, list B' system where you have to show at least
> one from each list - A is for proof of ID, B is for proof of address, and
> you can't use the same document for both A and B.
>
> Asking $officialdom for their list of approved ID is the only way.
>
> When you have the list, don't be afraid to go back to them and say 'I don't
> have any of those'. Tis a route of much pain and suffering, but the only
> way they'll learn.

Yes indeed.

In a similar vein, in the distant past I have had trouble getting an
early mobile phone 'authorised' - because my credit rating was on the
floor. Why? because I had never borrowed, never done hire-purchase,
never had a mortgage, never rented a property etc etc The whole idea of
having spent half one's adult life 'within one's means' was a foreign
country to them.

I can't actually remember how I got round that? I think showing a
record of employment was involved? It really shouldn't be that way!

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550T
https://www.Deuchars.org.uk

fluffycat wrote:

> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>
> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>
> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>
> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
> etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
> statement but it takes too long.
>
> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could
> bite my cheek and spit in their face.
>
> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other
> was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can
> buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.

Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
everything a whole lot simpler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

--

Geoff
NTV650

"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:utmi0r$3kpuq$1@dont-email.me:

> fluffycat wrote:
>
>> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>>
>> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>>
>> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
>> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
>> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>>
>> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
>> etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
>> statement but it takes too long.
>>
>> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could
>> bite my cheek and spit in their face.
>>
>> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other
>> was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can
>> buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.
>
> Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
> everything a whole lot simpler.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
>
>

that would only meet one criterion from Group A required by a bank,
conveyancer, DBS check etc.

You would still need two proofs of address from Group B if using the
most common route taken to verify ID. These are often the more difficult
ones for people to provide, especially if young, as most younger people
have gone paperless for statements and tend to live with parents or in
shared accommodation where the landlord pays the utility bills.

Although, a mandatory ID card would then allow a driving licence to be
used as a Group B document, assuming the ID card and driving licence are
not combined.

On 23/03/2024 12:30, GeoffC wrote:
> fluffycat wrote:
>
>> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>>
>> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>>
>> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
>> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
>> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>>
>> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
>> etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
>> statement but it takes too long.
>>
>> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could
>> bite my cheek and spit in their face.
>>
>> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other
>> was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can
>> buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.
>
> Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
> everything a whole lot simpler.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
>
>

That led to https://www.no2id.net/

I'm sure that if the Gov had tried to introduce it in a more stepped
way, then it may have made it.

We accept passports and driving licences[1], but I think "mission creep"
helped kill it as more and more "entitlements" were added.

[1] Well, ok, I know 1 person who still refuses to get a photo driving
licence.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 3/22/2024 8:20 AM, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
> On 22/03/2024 10:52, Theo wrote:
>> fluffycat <fluffycat@musatelier.eu> wrote:
>>> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>>>
>>> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>>>
>>> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
>>> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
>>> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>>>
>>> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements, etc.,
>>> and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
>>> statement but it takes too long.
>>
>> There are no rules, every organisation makes them up independently.
>>
>> Most places have a 'list A, list B' system where you have to show at
>> least
>> one from each list - A is for proof of ID, B is for proof of address, and
>> you can't use the same document for both A and B.
>>
>> Asking $officialdom for their list of approved ID is the only way.
>>
>> When you have the list, don't be afraid to go back to them and say 'I
>> don't
>> have any of those'.  Tis a route of much pain and suffering, but the only
>> way they'll learn.
>
> Yes indeed.
>
> In a similar vein, in the distant past I have had trouble getting an
> early mobile phone 'authorised' - because my credit rating was on the
> floor.  Why?  because I had never borrowed, never done hire-purchase,
> never had a mortgage, never rented a property etc etc  The whole idea of
> having spent half one's adult life 'within one's means' was a foreign
> country to them.
>
> I can't actually remember how I got round that?  I think showing a
> record of employment was involved?  It really shouldn't be that way!
>
> Chris

You deserve a government medal for that. That you could use as ID.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

YTC#1 wrote:

> On 23/03/2024 12:30, GeoffC wrote:
> > fluffycat wrote:
> >
> > > Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any
> > > more).
> > >
> > > What can one use to prove one's identity?
> > >
> > > Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has
> > > two which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He
> > > doesn't have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
> > >
> > > Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
> > > etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a
> > > paper statement but it takes too long.
> > >
> > > I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I
> > > could bite my cheek and spit in their face.
> > >
> > > [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or
> > > other was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name.
> > > You can buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.
> >
> > Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
> > everything a whole lot simpler.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
> >
> >
>
> That led to https://www.no2id.net/
>
> I'm sure that if the Gov had tried to introduce it in a more stepped
> way, then it may have made it.
>
> We accept passports and driving licences[1], but I think "mission
> creep" helped kill it as more and more "entitlements" were added.
>
> [1] Well, ok, I know 1 person who still refuses to get a photo
> driving licence.

Out of curiosity, were you for or against the 2006 proposals?
I remember at the time it being depicted by opponents as Big Brother
etc.

--

Geoff
NTV650

wessie wrote:

> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:utmi0r$3kpuq$1@dont-email.me:
>
> > fluffycat wrote:
> >
> >> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any
> more). >>
> >> What can one use to prove one's identity?
> >>
> >> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
> >> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He
> doesn't >> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
> >>
> >> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
> >> etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a
> paper >> statement but it takes too long.
> >>
> >> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could
> >> bite my cheek and spit in their face.
> >>
> >> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other
> >> was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can
> >> buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.
> >
> > Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
> > everything a whole lot simpler.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
> >
> >
>
> that would only meet one criterion from Group A required by a bank,
> conveyancer, DBS check etc.
>
> You would still need two proofs of address from Group B if using the
> most common route taken to verify ID. These are often the more
> difficult ones for people to provide, especially if young, as most
> younger people have gone paperless for statements and tend to live
> with parents or in shared accommodation where the landlord pays the
> utility bills.
>
> Although, a mandatory ID card would then allow a driving licence to
> be used as a Group B document, assuming the ID card and driving
> licence are not combined.

I suppose an ID card on its own is not all that useful, it needs to be
linked to a reliable database of names and addresses (and more
recently, biometrics) to be effective.
Here in NL it certainly is.
At the behest of Napoleon, Dutch local authorities have been required
to maintain a "Hatch, Match and Despatch" register of all citizens
since about 1811. Every inhabitant is required to register at the local
town hall and if you move then your identity gets sent on to the new
authority. Everybody is issued with a number at birth which gets used
for everything, pensions, welfare, tax, health, traffic fines etc. They
stop just short of tattooing a bar code on your forehead at birth.
ID is obligatory and the card has a chip with biometrics etc. Passport
has one page which is thick plastic and is just a larger copy of and ID
card.
Now for the useful bit. DigiD.

https://www.digid.nl/en

You apply and then receive a code by post. After that it's all via the
App.
We bought a motorhome a few weeks ago (was starting to feel left out
around here) the whole process took about 15min over a cup of coffee.
Payment via internet banking and then transfer of ownership and
insurance using DigiD. I was on the dole last year, did everything
online for the first 6mths before I had to show my face at the dole
office.
Only a few instances are allowed to make a copy of your ID, employers,
banks, notaries and strangely, casinos.
I think DigiD works in other EU countries too, never tried it mind.
I sometimes wonder if an efficient EU wide ID system could be one
reason why illegal immigrants are keen to leave the EU and access the
anonymous UK economy?

--

Geoff
NTV650

YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/03/2024 12:30, GeoffC wrote:
>> fluffycat wrote:
>>
>>> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any more).
>>>
>>> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>>>
>>> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
>>> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He doesn't
>>> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>>>
>>> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
>>> etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a paper
>>> statement but it takes too long.
>>>
>>> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could
>>> bite my cheek and spit in their face.
>>>
>>> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other
>>> was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can
>>> buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.
>>
>> Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
>> everything a whole lot simpler.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

> That led to https://www.no2id.net/
>
> I'm sure that if the Gov had tried to introduce it in a more stepped
> way, then it may have made it.

Mission creep is what killed off the WWII Identity Card and Register.
Originally brought in for four reasons, by circa 1950 that had ballooned to
~39, and people were fed up with it. This included police constables
demanding to see random people’s ID card, long after the war was over, in
true “Papieren, bitte” fashion.

Finally, one constable stopped a driver, who stoutly resisted showing his
ID, saying “I am an individual man!” (he meant a ‘free man’). The courts
backed him and that was the end of that.

> We accept passports and driving licences[1], but I think "mission creep"
> helped kill it as more and more "entitlements" were added.
>
> [1] Well, ok, I know 1 person who still refuses to get a photo driving
> licence.

--
Spike

"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:utp29m$af8d$1@dont-email.me:

> I think DigiD works in other EU countries too, never tried it mind.
> I sometimes wonder if an efficient EU wide ID system could be one
> reason why illegal immigrants are keen to leave the EU and access the
> anonymous UK economy?
>

You could have a point. It is very easy for people to get work in the black
economy here. Only occasionally we have a report of a fast food outlet, car
wash, agricultural gangmaster or sweatshop getting busted. I beleive it is
also quite common for an individual to register with all of the delivery
brands and then sublet the account to a third party who may not have proper
credentials to work.

I find it ironic that the people who moan about illegal economic migrants
are often the same people that object to mandatory ID cards, when the
latter should be one element to manage the former.

Of course, we might have more success limiting illegal immigration if only
we dedicated more resources to busting businesses using illegal workers and
closing gig economy loopholes rather than ineffective vanity projects that
breach human rights by sending people to Rwanda.

On 24/03/2024 11:20, GeoffC wrote:
> wessie wrote:
>
>> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:utmi0r$3kpuq$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> fluffycat wrote:
>>>
>>>> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any
>> more). >>
>>>> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>>>>
>>>> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has two
>>>> which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He
>> doesn't >> have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>>>>
>>>> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
>>>> etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a
>> paper >> statement but it takes too long.
>>>>
>>>> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I could
>>>> bite my cheek and spit in their face.
>>>>
>>>> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or other
>>>> was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name. You can
>>>> buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.
>>>
>>> Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
>>> everything a whole lot simpler.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
>>>
>>>
>>
>> that would only meet one criterion from Group A required by a bank,
>> conveyancer, DBS check etc.
>>
>> You would still need two proofs of address from Group B if using the
>> most common route taken to verify ID. These are often the more
>> difficult ones for people to provide, especially if young, as most
>> younger people have gone paperless for statements and tend to live
>> with parents or in shared accommodation where the landlord pays the
>> utility bills.
>>
>> Although, a mandatory ID card would then allow a driving licence to
>> be used as a Group B document, assuming the ID card and driving
>> licence are not combined.
>
> I suppose an ID card on its own is not all that useful, it needs to be
> linked to a reliable database of names and addresses (and more
> recently, biometrics) to be effective.
> Here in NL it certainly is.
> At the behest of Napoleon, Dutch local authorities have been required
> to maintain a "Hatch, Match and Despatch" register of all citizens

Well, I suppose we have that as well.

> since about 1811. Every inhabitant is required to register at the local
> town hall and if you move then your identity gets sent on to the new
> authority. Everybody is issued with a number at birth which gets used

And this, there is a number attached to the birth cert, then we have our
NI number (which I know by heart), that we receive at 16 (IIRC, it was a
long time ago). The NI number gets used for lots of stuff (Security
Clearance, NHS and Driving Licence are 3 that spring to mind).

> for everything, pensions, welfare, tax, health, traffic fines etc. They
> stop just short of tattooing a bar code on your forehead at birth.
> ID is obligatory and the card has a chip with biometrics etc. Passport

And this is where we differ.

>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 24/03/2024 10:19, GeoffC wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> On 23/03/2024 12:30, GeoffC wrote:
>>> fluffycat wrote:
>>>
>>>> Asking for a friend (no, really - I don't live in England any
>>>> more).
>>>>
>>>> What can one use to prove one's identity?
>>>>
>>>> Three "proofs" of ID required for some officialdom. $Friend has
>>>> two which are acceptable (passport and birth certificate[0]). He
>>>> doesn't have a driving licence (sorry to upset you).
>>>>
>>>> Officiousdom rejects printouts of utility bills, bank statements,
>>>> etc., and of course he does everything online. Bank will send a
>>>> paper statement but it takes too long.
>>>>
>>>> I used to dream of proof using DNA, so when asked for my ID I
>>>> could bite my cheek and spit in their face.
>>>>
>>>> [0] Birth certificate, ha! Proof of nothing except someone or
>>>> other was born then, there, to named parent(s), and given a name.
>>>> You can buy anyone's certificate from the Registry.
>>>
>>> Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
>>> everything a whole lot simpler.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That led to https://www.no2id.net/
>>
>> I'm sure that if the Gov had tried to introduce it in a more stepped
>> way, then it may have made it.
>>
>> We accept passports and driving licences[1], but I think "mission
>> creep" helped kill it as more and more "entitlements" were added.
>>
>> [1] Well, ok, I know 1 person who still refuses to get a photo
>> driving licence.
>
> Out of curiosity, were you for or against the 2006 proposals?
> I remember at the time it being depicted by opponents as Big Brother
> etc.
>
>

I was against, I felt it went to far.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

YTC#1 wrote:

> On 24/03/2024 11:20, GeoffC wrote:

<SNIP>

> > I suppose an ID card on its own is not all that useful, it needs to
> > be linked to a reliable database of names and addresses (and more
> > recently, biometrics) to be effective.
> > Here in NL it certainly is.
> > At the behest of Napoleon, Dutch local authorities have been
> > required to maintain a "Hatch, Match and Despatch" register of all
> > citizens
>
> Well, I suppose we have that as well.
>
> > since about 1811. Every inhabitant is required to register at the
> > local town hall and if you move then your identity gets sent on to
> > the new authority. Everybody is issued with a number at birth which
> > gets used
>
> And this, there is a number attached to the birth cert, then we have
> our NI number (which I know by heart), that we receive at 16 (IIRC,
> it was a long time ago). The NI number gets used for lots of stuff
> (Security Clearance, NHS and Driving Licence are 3 that spring to
> mind).

Couldn't find that on the copy of my last (1979) UK licence. Not on the
new ones either. Whilst Googling I did come across plenty of websites
offering licences for sale though which would suggest that they are not
much use as ID.
It's all very well having lots of different databases but there is not
much point if they are not linked. A unique personal number, name, date
and place of birth, current address and nationality would be a minimum
IWHT. Then you have one single reliable proof of identity.

>
> > for everything, pensions, welfare, tax, health, traffic fines etc.
> > They stop just short of tattooing a bar code on your forehead at
> > birth. ID is obligatory and the card has a chip with biometrics
> > etc. Passport
>
> And this is where we differ.

Hence the palaver to try and prove your identity.
I have a single card with which I can prove my identity throughout the
EU. Probably not foolproof but not far off, in fact with biometrics
included it's difficult to see how my ID could be duplicated
..

--

Geoff
NTV650

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 11:20:22 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote:

> I suppose an ID card on its own is not all that useful, it needs to
> be linked to a reliable database of names and addresses (and more
> recently, biometrics) to be effective.

W.C. says: There's limited space on the front (and back) of an
identity card, but it's enough.

Hooking up a unique ID on the card to a database in the cloud is just
a question of how much information you have to make available, not the
sensitivity of it.

Folks are worried that this puts TOO MUCH INFORMATION in the hands of
police and other agencies of Big Government, Big Business, and Big
Crime who can afford access. It could be worse.

How about the chilling effect of having your ID card read out in
public? I'm not picturing a roomful of terrorists with notepads. I'm
picturing a school-board meeting where everyone is entitled to speak,
but the open-meeting rules allow a proctor to stand between the
taxpayer and the microphone.

The proctor's job is to announce aloud (for the record) the speaker's
name, address, phone number, political affiliation, religious
affiliation, ethnicity, race, language proficiencies, place of
business, and *alma mater* along with highest diploma granted. He
gets this public information out of the national database from swiping
the speaker's ID into a card-reader on his cellphone, and it goes
directly into the minutes of the meeting. Then the speaker can say
whatever he wants.

Announcing speaker's background info would help the members of the
board to put his comments in context, wouldn't it? And I'm thinking
this would cut down a lot on the spew of unconsidered, unconstructive
comments from members of the public you see on the evening news.

I'm sure it would be a good thing. The public-comment portion of such
meetings would be over and done with very quickly because few with
balanced opinions would out themselves and their families in front of
a camera. Instead the mic would be dominated by lunatics with agendas
and nothing much to lose, so ... not much change from the *status quo
ante* if you see what I mean, and the board could blithely ignore the
public input. There wouldn't be so many people in the way trying to
shout the loonies down.

But you're having difficulty with the concept that all uses of public
information are to the public benefit. Here's yet another case in
point:

"On an empty stretch of the Karakoram Highway (KKH), Kohistan, (an
area with a high Sunni population), 10 to 12 gunmen in military
uniform flagged the bus for stopping. After the bus halted, gunmen
boarded and asked for the passengers' identity cards. After checking
them, the gunmen dragged a group of Shia men including three children
off the bus. They were made to stand in a line by the roadside. Their
hands were tied to their back, and then [they were] shot."

+ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Kohistan_Shia_massacre

But you do see the advantages of a national ID card listing religious
affiliation, don't you? If this is to be the wave of the future,
let's make the most of it.

--
Moreover I am convinced that Reddit will have to be destroyed.

Worst Case

On 23/03/2024 20:55 wessie penned these words:
> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:utmi0r$3kpuq$1@dont-email.me:
>
[ID]
>> Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
>> everything a whole lot simpler.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
>>
>>
>
> that would only meet one criterion from Group A required by a bank,
> conveyancer, DBS check etc.

Having been living somewhere all the locals have to have an ID car, that is all
that is required. Shoved into appropriate machine with a thumb print. I suppose
to can say two matches, since it is fizog and thumb.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 24/03/2024 19:27, GeoffC wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/2024 11:20, GeoffC wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>> I suppose an ID card on its own is not all that useful, it needs to
>>> be linked to a reliable database of names and addresses (and more
>>> recently, biometrics) to be effective.
>>> Here in NL it certainly is.
>>> At the behest of Napoleon, Dutch local authorities have been
>>> required to maintain a "Hatch, Match and Despatch" register of all
>>> citizens
>>
>> Well, I suppose we have that as well.
>>
>>> since about 1811. Every inhabitant is required to register at the
>>> local town hall and if you move then your identity gets sent on to
>>> the new authority. Everybody is issued with a number at birth which
>>> gets used
>>
>> And this, there is a number attached to the birth cert, then we have
>> our NI number (which I know by heart), that we receive at 16 (IIRC,
>> it was a long time ago). The NI number gets used for lots of stuff
>> (Security Clearance, NHS and Driving Licence are 3 that spring to
>> mind).
>
> Couldn't find that on the copy of my last (1979) UK licence. Not on the
> new ones either. Whilst Googling I did come across plenty of websites
It's not on the licence, but when you apply for a PDF doc for car hire
(IIRC) it is one of the things they ask for (but I may have got that
confused)

> offering licences for sale though which would suggest that they are not
> much use as ID.
> It's all very well having lots of different databases but there is not
> much point if they are not linked. A unique personal number, name, date

Ah, linking databases.
NHS Spine. A good idea, fucked up by regionalising the system and having
different companies run those regions.

> and place of birth, current address and nationality would be a minimum
> IWHT. Then you have one single reliable proof of identity.
>
>
>>
>>> for everything, pensions, welfare, tax, health, traffic fines etc.
>>> They stop just short of tattooing a bar code on your forehead at
>>> birth. ID is obligatory and the card has a chip with biometrics
>>> etc. Passport
>>
>> And this is where we differ.
>
> Hence the palaver to try and prove your identity.
> I have a single card with which I can prove my identity throughout the
> EU. Probably not foolproof but not far off, in fact with biometrics
> included it's difficult to see how my ID could be duplicated

I am sure there will be a way :-)
> .
>
>
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 25/03/2024 08:25, Boots wrote:
> On 23/03/2024 20:55 wessie penned these words:
>> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:utmi0r$3kpuq$1@dont-email.me:
>>
> [ID]
>>> Can't help thinking that introducing ID cards would have made
>>> everything a whole lot simpler.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
>>>
>>>
>>
>> that would only meet one criterion from Group A required by a bank,
>> conveyancer, DBS check etc.
>
> Having been living somewhere all the locals have to have an ID car, that is all

Is that like an Uber?
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 24/03/2024 19:27, GeoffC wrote:
> Hence the palaver to try and prove your identity. I have a single card
> with which I can prove my identity throughout the EU. Probably not
> foolproof but not far off, in fact with biometrics included it's
> difficult to see how my ID could be duplicated

The Israeli government had no problem forging British biometric
passports so they could be used by Mossad agents back in 2010.

<https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/23/israel-mossad-agent-expelled-passport>

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 24/03/2024 21:37, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>
> + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Kohistan_Shia_massacre
>
> But you do see the advantages of a national ID card listing religious
> affiliation, don't you? If this is to be the wave of the future,
> let's make the most of it.

...and is why I never answer questions about ethnicity, religion etc etc
on even 'apparently innocent' official documentation and choose the
'prefer not to say' box to tick.

It is one of the central principles of GDPR that information should only
be collected which is needed and for specified purposes. This is good.
However, another principle is that it must be discarded when no longer
required - that is rather more difficult to determine. Or trust.

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550T
https://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 15:07:02 +0000, "chrisnd @ukrm"
<chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 24/03/2024 21:37, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>>
>> + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Kohistan_Shia_massacre
>>
>> But you do see the advantages of a national ID card listing religious
>> affiliation, don't you? If this is to be the wave of the future,
>> let's make the most of it.
>
>..and is why I never answer questions about ethnicity, religion etc etc
>on even 'apparently innocent' official documentation and choose the
>'prefer not to say' box to tick.

I usually give my ethnicity and age as they are important variables in
a number of areas, such as health. And I always give my religion -
atheist!

--
Colin Irvine
R1250RS

On 27/03/2024 15:22, Colin Irvine wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 15:07:02 +0000, "chrisnd @ukrm"
> <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/2024 21:37, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>>>
>>> + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Kohistan_Shia_massacre
>>>
>>> But you do see the advantages of a national ID card listing religious
>>> affiliation, don't you? If this is to be the wave of the future,
>>> let's make the most of it.
>>
>> ..and is why I never answer questions about ethnicity, religion etc etc
>> on even 'apparently innocent' official documentation and choose the
>> 'prefer not to say' box to tick.
>
> I usually give my ethnicity and age as they are important variables in
> a number of areas, such as health. And I always give my religion -
> atheist!

The reason for not giving away anything I don't have to is not merely
paranoia. I really can fully see the logic in benign authorities
seeking the other information.

What concerns me is that a benign authority may not always be so. Or,
more likely, said benign authority may be hacked (or have its data
carelessly shared/left on a USB stick on a bus etc) by those who are
less benign and may use the collected information for commercial
purposes, burglary or go on a 'mad axeman', religious/political
extremist, or similar, rampage.

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550T
https://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 27/03/2024 15:07, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
> On 24/03/2024 21:37, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>>
>> + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Kohistan_Shia_massacre
>>
>> But you do see the advantages of a national ID card listing religious
>> affiliation, don't you?  If this is to be the wave of the future,
>> let's make the most of it.
>
> ..and is why I never answer questions about ethnicity, religion etc etc
> on even 'apparently innocent' official documentation and choose the
> 'prefer not to say' box to tick.
>

As a rule I answer those, as long as I think it is relevant.

> It is one of the central principles of GDPR that information should only
> be collected which is needed and for specified purposes.  This is good.

Hence I only answer if relevant :-)

> However, another principle is that it must be discarded when no longer
> required - that is rather more difficult to determine. Or trust.
>
Oh, that reminds me, I need to hassle Nationwide over how they erase
biometric data when no longer required.

> Chris
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 3/27/2024 8:56 AM, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>
>
> What concerns me is that a benign authority may not always be so.  Or,
> more likely, said benign authority may be hacked (or have its data
> carelessly shared/left on a USB stick on a bus etc) by those who are
> less benign and may use the collected information for commercial
> purposes, burglary or go on a 'mad axeman', religious/political
> extremist, or similar, rampage.
>

Looking at this world today, and seeing how unpredictable it was so few
years ago, justifies much more caution and security. A president who
justifies revolution, AI that can replicate reality, the popularity of
flat-earthers, the list goes on...

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)