I just thought to have a quick check in the group here, and see what's
been going on since I stopped riding too many years ago.

Blimey, it was 18 years ago now, since my first wife passed away, and I
was left to bring up 11 year old daughter.

Firstly, can people please stop doing the 'down' thing, it looks more
the the UKRM obituary column at the moment, I was adaned to see the
Steve Hamer thread there so recently, and of course have seen some of
the others over the last few years.

If I recall correctly, the first one was Windy, I still have, in my
Music library, the songs of hers that were shared at the time.

I still have the urge to ride of course, it never left me, but as
mentioned in the Steve Hamer thread, the collection of health issues,
amongst other things, is mounting, and making riding again less and less
likely [1].

Personally, I have collected up brittle bones (no idea why, even the
docs are puzzled there), Atrial Fibrilation (bought on by Covid two
years ago, from which I'm also still suffering other long term effects),
and gout, all of which is controlled with an ever growing list of
medications.

I also hit the big 60 this year, I originally joined here at just over
the age of 30. Where did that go?

On a positive note, we celebrate our 10th anniversary with the new wife
this year. My daughter is now 30, and expecting second sprog soon.

Between us we have two grand kids, and three more arriving this summer,
so we have plenty to look forward to (albeit a fucking expensive Christmas!)

At least I'm still managing full time work - at a large well known chip
factory in Scarborough.

Anyway, please stay away from the undertakers out there. Best regards.

[1] never say never though, if I get the chance... :-).

--
Andy H

Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote in
news:v08llf$1mtbl$1@dont-email.me:

> I just thought to have a quick check in the group here, and see what's
> been going on since I stopped riding too many years ago.
>

who the fuck are you exactly?

> Blimey, it was 18 years ago now, since my first wife passed away, and
> I was left to bring up 11 year old daughter.
>
> Firstly, can people please stop doing the 'down' thing, it looks more
> the the UKRM obituary column at the moment, I was adaned to see the
> Steve Hamer thread there so recently, and of course have seen some of
> the others over the last few years.
>
> If I recall correctly, the first one was Windy, I still have, in my
> Music library, the songs of hers that were shared at the time.
>

Mat Tab wasn't it?

> I still have the urge to ride of course, it never left me, but as
> mentioned in the Steve Hamer thread, the collection of health issues,
> amongst other things, is mounting, and making riding again less and
> less likely [1].
>
> Personally, I have collected up brittle bones (no idea why, even the
> docs are puzzled there), Atrial Fibrilation (bought on by Covid two
> years ago, from which I'm also still suffering other long term
> effects), and gout, all of which is controlled with an ever growing
> list of medications.
>

welcome to the Mong Club as Hog[1] would say

I started another prescribed med this week. 7 now.

> I also hit the big 60 this year, I originally joined here at just over
> the age of 30. Where did that go?
>

I took early retirement last year, at 60.5. Thought about getting a part
time job but CBA.

> On a positive note, we celebrate our 10th anniversary with the new
> wife this year. My daughter is now 30, and expecting second sprog
> soon.
>
> Between us we have two grand kids, and three more arriving this
> summer, so we have plenty to look forward to (albeit a fucking
> expensive Christmas!)

my son is 33 and has shown no signs of breeding even though he has been
in a relationship for over a decade. His other half is very sensible.

>
> At least I'm still managing full time work - at a large well known
> chip factory in Scarborough.
>

spuds, not silicon I assume

> Anyway, please stay away from the undertakers out there. Best regards.
>
>
> [1] never say never though, if I get the chance... :-).
>

[1] current Uber Mong

On 23/04/2024 17:17, wessie wrote:
> Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote in
> news:v08llf$1mtbl$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> I just thought to have a quick check in the group here, and see what's
>> been going on since I stopped riding too many years ago.
>>
>
> who the fuck are you exactly?

Excellent, I'm in the right place ;-)

>> Blimey, it was 18 years ago now, since my first wife passed away, and
>> I was left to bring up 11 year old daughter.
>>
>> Firstly, can people please stop doing the 'down' thing, it looks more
>> the the UKRM obituary column at the moment, I was adaned to see the
>> Steve Hamer thread there so recently, and of course have seen some of
>> the others over the last few years.
>>
>> If I recall correctly, the first one was Windy, I still have, in my
>> Music library, the songs of hers that were shared at the time.
>>
>
> Mat Tab wasn't it?

Oh, I can't remember that much!

>> I still have the urge to ride of course, it never left me, but as
>> mentioned in the Steve Hamer thread, the collection of health issues,
>> amongst other things, is mounting, and making riding again less and
>> less likely [1].
>>
>> Personally, I have collected up brittle bones (no idea why, even the
>> docs are puzzled there), Atrial Fibrilation (bought on by Covid two
>> years ago, from which I'm also still suffering other long term
>> effects), and gout, all of which is controlled with an ever growing
>> list of medications.
>>
>
> welcome to the Mong Club as Hog[1] would say

Wonderful, I wanted to belong to a new club

> I started another prescribed med this week. 7 now.

I'm on 8 (three are for the A/Fib)

It was 9, but I have been allowed to cease one of my brittle bone meds
after 7 years.

>> I also hit the big 60 this year, I originally joined here at just over
>> the age of 30. Where did that go?
>>
>
> I took early retirement last year, at 60.5. Thought about getting a part
> time job but CBA.

I wish, I'm stuck with it until 67, and probably have to still work
then, even with three private pensions (not enough to retire early at
least).

>> On a positive note, we celebrate our 10th anniversary with the new
>> wife this year. My daughter is now 30, and expecting second sprog
>> soon.
>>
>> Between us we have two grand kids, and three more arriving this
>> summer, so we have plenty to look forward to (albeit a fucking
>> expensive Christmas!)
>
> my son is 33 and has shown no signs of breeding even though he has been
> in a relationship for over a decade. His other half is very sensible.

My daughter married after six months together, and had first one after
two years.

>> At least I'm still managing full time work - at a large well known
>> chip factory in Scarborough.
>
> spuds, not silicon I assume

Yup.

--
Andy H

On 23 Apr 2024 at 16:55:27 BST, "Andy H" <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

> Between us we have two grand kids, and three more arriving this summer,
> so we have plenty to look forward to (albeit a fucking expensive Christmas!)

LOL
--
jeremy

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:55:27 +0100, Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com>
wrote:

>I just thought to have a quick check in the group here, and see what's
>been going on since I stopped riding too many years ago.

Welcome back!

<big snip of not so positive stuff>

>I also hit the big 60 this year
>At least I'm still managing full time work

I know "count your blessings" is a terribe cliche, but your post has
really made me do that. I'm 62 later this year, effectively retired
(ok, I drive buses for money occassionally, but only when I want to),
and my health is good. Sorry it's at your expense, but you've
reminded me of how fucking lucky I am.

Keep on keeping on, fellah

--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 23/04/2024 18:29, Champ wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:55:27 +0100, Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I just thought to have a quick check in the group here, and see what's
>> been going on since I stopped riding too many years ago.
>
> Welcome back!
>
> <big snip of not so positive stuff>
>
>> I also hit the big 60 this year
>> At least I'm still managing full time work
>
> I know "count your blessings" is a terribe cliche, but your post has
> really made me do that. I'm 62 later this year, effectively retired
> (ok, I drive buses for money occassionally, but only when I want to),
> and my health is good. Sorry it's at your expense, but you've
> reminded me of how fucking lucky I am.

Well, I saw the post about Steve, and thought the same thing I guess -
it could always be worse ;-)

> Keep on keeping on, fellah

And you, cheers.

--
Andy H

Andy H wrote:

> On 23/04/2024 18:29, Champ wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:55:27 +0100, Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I just thought to have a quick check in the group here, and see what's
>>> been going on since I stopped riding too many years ago.
>>
>> Welcome back!
>>
>> <big snip of not so positive stuff>
>>
>>> I also hit the big 60 this year
>>> At least I'm still managing full time work
>>
>> I know "count your blessings" is a terribe cliche, but your post has
>> really made me do that. I'm 62 later this year, effectively retired
>> (ok, I drive buses for money occassionally, but only when I want to),
>> and my health is good. Sorry it's at your expense, but you've
>> reminded me of how fucking lucky I am.

> Well, I saw the post about Steve, and thought the same thing I guess -
> it could always be worse ;-)

>> Keep on keeping on, fellah

> And you, cheers.

It's not how long you live but how you've lived that matters.
Dropping suddenly while getting on with it, a smile on my face, I would ask for no more.

My memory has been much rattled recently, but did you live in Thame (or Aylesbury)

On 23/04/2024 20:53, Hog wrote:
> Andy H wrote:
>
>> On 23/04/2024 18:29, Champ wrote:
>>> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:55:27 +0100, Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just thought to have a quick check in the group here, and see what's
>>>> been going on since I stopped riding too many years ago.
>>>
>>> Welcome back!
>>>
>>> <big snip of not so positive stuff>
>>>
>>>> I also hit the big 60 this year
>>>> At least I'm still managing full time work
>>>
>>> I know "count your blessings" is a terribe cliche, but your post has
>>> really made me do that.  I'm 62 later this year, effectively retired
>>> (ok, I drive buses for money occassionally, but only when I want to),
>>> and my health is good.  Sorry it's at your expense, but you've
>>> reminded me of how fucking lucky I am.
>
>> Well, I saw the post about Steve, and thought the same thing I guess -
>> it could always be worse ;-)
>
>>> Keep on keeping on, fellah
>
>> And you, cheers.
>
> It's not how long you live but how you've lived that matters.
> Dropping suddenly while getting on with it, a smile on my face, I would
> ask for no more.

Absolutely.

> My memory has been much rattled recently, but did you live in Thame (or
> Aylesbury)

No, Luton, then Durham, then Scarborough, and now Driffield.

Now that's a strange thing, I can't remember the name of the guy over
Aylesbury way, but he might be the one I bought panniers off for the K100.

--
Andy H

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 20:21:42 +0100, Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com>
wrote:

>> I know "count your blessings" is a terribe cliche, but your post has
>> really made me do that. I'm 62 later this year, effectively retired
>> (ok, I drive buses for money occassionally, but only when I want to),
>> and my health is good. Sorry it's at your expense, but you've
>> reminded me of how fucking lucky I am.

>Well, I saw the post about Steve, and thought the same thing I guess -
>it could always be worse ;-)

Getting old is shit - but it beats the alternative!
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

[…]

> Personally, I have collected up brittle bones (no idea why, even the docs
> are puzzled there), Atrial Fibrilation (bought on by Covid two years ago,
> from which I'm also still suffering other long term effects), and gout,
> all of which is controlled with an ever growing list of medications.

[…]

Check your blood phosphorus levels, as high levels can leach calcium from
your bones. Unfortunately, these can deposit calcium in the heart (bad),
arteries (bad), and eyes (bad), among others (none good).

Check your EGFR level (requires a blood test) to determine your kidney
function (as failing kidneys can cause high blood phosphorus levels).

Read this:

<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632319/>

QUOTE The risk of AF [Atrial Fibrillation] was increased in association
with greater serum phosphorus in those with an estimated glomerular
filtration rate [EGFR] of ≥90 ml/min/1.72 m2 but not among those with an
estimated glomerular filtration rate of <90 ml/min/1.72 m2 UNQUOTE

Check your Patient Information Leaflets for all your meds, looking for any
that cause brittle bones or high blood phosphorus levels as a side effect.

For the relief of gout, eat lots of cherries.

You can book online an EGFR/creatinine blood test via your favourite local
private hospital, cost about £60, get the result in a couple of days.

HTH

--
Spike

Andy H wrote:

> On 23/04/2024 20:53, Hog wrote:

>> My memory has been much rattled recently, but did you live in Thame (or
>> Aylesbury)

> No, Luton, then Durham, then Scarborough, and now Driffield.

> Now that's a strange thing, I can't remember the name of the guy over
> Aylesbury way, but he might be the one I bought panniers off for the K100.

Oh dear, being confused, I have confused you with AndrewR.
Possibly the first UKRM'er I did meet (at his gaff)

On 24/04/2024 16:02, Hog wrote:
> Andy H wrote:
>
>> On 23/04/2024 20:53, Hog wrote:
>
>>> My memory has been much rattled recently, but did you live in Thame
>>> (or Aylesbury)
>
>> No, Luton, then Durham, then Scarborough, and now Driffield.
>
>> Now that's a strange thing, I can't remember the name of the guy over
>> Aylesbury way, but he might be the one I bought panniers off for the
>> K100.
>
>
> Oh dear, being confused, I have confused you with AndrewR. Possibly the
> first UKRM'er I did meet (at his gaff)

It wasn't him, but it was 20+ years ago.

--
Andy H

On 24/04/2024 11:45, Spike wrote:
> Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
>
> […]
>
>> Personally, I have collected up brittle bones (no idea why, even the docs
>> are puzzled there), Atrial Fibrilation (bought on by Covid two years ago,
>> from which I'm also still suffering other long term effects), and gout,
>> all of which is controlled with an ever growing list of medications.
>
> […]
>
> Check your blood phosphorus levels, as high levels can leach calcium from
> your bones. Unfortunately, these can deposit calcium in the heart (bad),
> arteries (bad), and eyes (bad), among others (none good).
>
> Check your EGFR level (requires a blood test) to determine your kidney
> function (as failing kidneys can cause high blood phosphorus levels).
>
> Read this:
>
> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632319/>
>
> QUOTE The risk of AF [Atrial Fibrillation] was increased in association
> with greater serum phosphorus in those with an estimated glomerular
> filtration rate [EGFR] of ≥90 ml/min/1.72 m2 but not among those with an
> estimated glomerular filtration rate of <90 ml/min/1.72 m2 UNQUOTE
>
> Check your Patient Information Leaflets for all your meds, looking for any
> that cause brittle bones or high blood phosphorus levels as a side effect.
>
> For the relief of gout, eat lots of cherries.
>
> You can book online an EGFR/creatinine blood test via your favourite local
> private hospital, cost about £60, get the result in a couple of days.
>
> HTH

I'm aware that bloods are OK, they do a full test every six months now
to check kidney and liver function.

The AF was trigged by Covid, and all the tests cleared my of any other
defects, no other heart disease or blockages.

I have been on Lansoprazole for a few years (I have a Hiatus Hernia), so
know about that being bad for bones, but they always seem to comment on
those, and take account with my other meds, I stopped taking Alendronic
Acid this years, and on Calcium tabs forever.

I'm seeing a very good cardio guy here. I'm using my company paid AXA
healthcare for that (it a weird policy, so not all things are covered).
AF is his speciality, and happy with the management of it using the meds
so far (there's a much longer story to all that, but that's where we're
at now).

So, yeah, all things are OK at the moment, and everything is doing what
it needs too.

I tried cherries, and cherry juice, for the gout, but didn't seem to
make any difference. I'm on Allopurinol for that, and it's kept that at
bay quite well (yeah, Ive read so much about dietary changes and what now).

Of course, all my ailments have conflicting interests, so I just stick
to a varied diet, with nothing in excess. If I try to go too detailed,
I'd end up with a glass of water :-/.

Cheers.

--
Andy H

On 24/04/2024 10:11, Champ wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 20:21:42 +0100, Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> I know "count your blessings" is a terribe cliche, but your post has
>>> really made me do that. I'm 62 later this year, effectively retired
>>> (ok, I drive buses for money occassionally, but only when I want to),
>>> and my health is good. Sorry it's at your expense, but you've
>>> reminded me of how fucking lucky I am.
>
>> Well, I saw the post about Steve, and thought the same thing I guess -
>> it could always be worse ;-)
>
> Getting old is shit - but it beats the alternative!

Getting younger?

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
> On 24/04/2024 11:45, Spike wrote:
>> Andy H <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>> […]
>>
>>> Personally, I have collected up brittle bones (no idea why, even the docs
>>> are puzzled there), Atrial Fibrilation (bought on by Covid two years ago,
>>> from which I'm also still suffering other long term effects), and gout,
>>> all of which is controlled with an ever growing list of medications.
>>
>> […]
>>
>> Check your blood phosphorus levels, as high levels can leach calcium from
>> your bones. Unfortunately, these can deposit calcium in the heart (bad),
>> arteries (bad), and eyes (bad), among others (none good).
>>
>> Check your EGFR level (requires a blood test) to determine your kidney
>> function (as failing kidneys can cause high blood phosphorus levels).
>>
>> Read this:
>>
>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632319/>
>>
>> QUOTE The risk of AF [Atrial Fibrillation] was increased in association
>> with greater serum phosphorus in those with an estimated glomerular
>> filtration rate [EGFR] of ≥90 ml/min/1.72 m2 but not among those with an
>> estimated glomerular filtration rate of <90 ml/min/1.72 m2 UNQUOTE
>>
>> Check your Patient Information Leaflets for all your meds, looking for any
>> that cause brittle bones or high blood phosphorus levels as a side effect.
>>
>> For the relief of gout, eat lots of cherries.
>>
>> You can book online an EGFR/creatinine blood test via your favourite local
>> private hospital, cost about £60, get the result in a couple of days.
>>
>> HTH
>
> I'm aware that bloods are OK, they do a full test every six months now
> to check kidney and liver function.
>
> The AF was trigged by Covid, and all the tests cleared my of any other
> defects, no other heart disease or blockages.
>
> I have been on Lansoprazole for a few years (I have a Hiatus Hernia), so
> know about that being bad for bones, but they always seem to comment on
> those, and take account with my other meds, I stopped taking Alendronic
> Acid this years, and on Calcium tabs forever.
>
> I'm seeing a very good cardio guy here. I'm using my company paid AXA
> healthcare for that (it a weird policy, so not all things are covered).
> AF is his speciality, and happy with the management of it using the meds
> so far (there's a much longer story to all that, but that's where we're
> at now).
>
> So, yeah, all things are OK at the moment, and everything is doing what
> it needs too.
>
> I tried cherries, and cherry juice, for the gout, but didn't seem to
> make any difference. I'm on Allopurinol for that, and it's kept that at
> bay quite well (yeah, Ive read so much about dietary changes and what now).
>
> Of course, all my ailments have conflicting interests, so I just stick
> to a varied diet, with nothing in excess. If I try to go too detailed,
> I'd end up with a glass of water :-/.
>
> Cheers.

Ah, thanks for the comprehensive reply! Your medical team seems to have
everything in hand, apart from the mysterious loss of bone density.

The paper I linked to does make the point that AF is more likely in people
with normally-functioning kidneys:

QUOTE The risk of AF was increased in association with greater serum
phosphorus in those with an estimated glomerular filtration rate of ≥90
ml/min/1.72 m2 but not among those with an estimated glomerular filtration
rate of <90 ml/min/1.72 m2. The total corrected calcium levels were not
related to AF risk; however, greater levels of the calcium-phosphorus
product were associated with greater AF risk UNQUOTE

They mention the ‘calcium-phosphorus product’ as increasing the risk of AF,
and it’s also worth noting that the intake of dietary phosphorus in the
Western diet is quite high, possibly 2 to 3 times the recommended
800mg/day, and the kidneys struggle to get rid of it.

In the fullness of time it might be interesting to work out your daily
phosphorus intake, although this can be a hard slog as packaging doesn’t
have to contain this information.

Unfortunately phosphorus additives are prevalent in processed foods, as
preservatives or flavour enhancers or raising agents or to make things
creamy. Dairy products are high phosphorus, as are cola drinks, beers can
be so, but it’s not easy to find these things out. Phosphorus from food
additives is almost completely absorbed by the body, whereas that from
plant sources might be only 50% absorbed.

I’m labouring the phosphorus because of the paper linking it to AF,
although they don’t mention a mechanism, combined with the high dietary
intake of the mineral.

As a start, go to myfooddata.com, click on Tools, then click on Nutrition
Facts Search, and have a play. The processed foods mentioned are American
brands, which might give a pointer to UK equivalents, but generic foods
(e.g. hard boiled eggs) will be a useful source of data.

It’s been my experience over four decades that doctors don’t know much
about diet. I dieted myself out of an ultimately fatal condition when my
doctor, when specifically asked, said I had no need to do so. Despite
informing the surgery of this success, there’s no mention of it in my
records.

Sorry to hear the cherries didn’t work, but it was worth the try.

--
Spike

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:30:51 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:

>On 24/04/2024 10:11, Champ wrote:

>> Getting old is shit - but it beats the alternative!

>Getting younger?

That option only appears to be available to Benjamin Button
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 25/04/2024 12:52, Champ wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:30:51 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 24/04/2024 10:11, Champ wrote:
>
>>> Getting old is shit - but it beats the alternative!
>
>> Getting younger?
>
> That option only appears to be available to Benjamin Button

And Dorian Grey perhaps!

--
Andy H

Andy H wrote:

> On 25/04/2024 12:52, Champ wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:30:51 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/04/2024 10:11, Champ wrote:
>>
>>>> Getting old is shit - but it beats the alternative!
>>
>>> Getting younger?
>>
>> That option only appears to be available to Benjamin Button

> And Dorian Grey perhaps!

Not really, he didn't get younger. He just didn't age.

On 25/04/2024 18:06, Andy H wrote:
> On 25/04/2024 12:52, Champ wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:30:51 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/04/2024 10:11, Champ wrote:
>>
>>>> Getting old is shit - but it beats the alternative!
>>
>>> Getting younger?
>>
>> That option only appears to be available to Benjamin Button
>
> And Dorian Grey perhaps!
>

Rupert Murdoch's wives?

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

furmity <no@email.com> wrote:
> Andy H wrote:
>
>> On 25/04/2024 12:52, Champ wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:30:51 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/04/2024 10:11, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Getting old is shit - but it beats the alternative!
>>>
>>>> Getting younger?
>>>
>>> That option only appears to be available to Benjamin Button
>
>> And Dorian Grey perhaps!
>
> Not really, he didn't get younger. He just didn't age.
>

Indeed, but I’ll take that too ;-).

--
Andy H

On 23/04/2024 23:55 Andy H penned these words:

> Blimey, it was 18 years ago now, since my first wife passed away, and I
> was left to bring up 11 year old daughter.

I do recall that, tough gig.

SNIP Medical problems

I've been lucky so far and apart from self-inflicted am reasonably healthy, had
to give in and accept BP tabs a couple of years ago. Madam not so much, what can
go wrong does in her case.

> My daughter is now 30, and expecting second sprog soon.

I have on at 39, one at 36. L's lad was 40 last year.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

Andy H wrote:

> Now that's a strange thing, I can't remember the name of the guy over
> Aylesbury way, but he might be the one I bought panniers off for the
> K100.

Could have been me - I flogged some years back