Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> That's the sort of information I am looking for - a machine that can be
> upgraded to a browser that at least works most of the time on 'ordinary'
> websites.

I'd look through the supported machines for OCLP as a guide to what can run
modern(ish) OSes. It's likely that modern browsers won't run on OSes that
are too old, so using OCLP to run a modern OS is a better plan.

As a general rule, the larger the difference between the date of the machine
and the date of the OS OCLP is trying to run on it, the more bumpy the
process gets. I did get Ventura running on a 2011 Mini but a number of
things didn't work; I reinstalled Monterey which was much better.

So I'd aim for something as new as possible within your budget.
What kind of budget were you thinking of?

> Another possibility is to buy a replacement power supply for the Mac
> Pro, they are being sold for around £40. The problem with that is the
> near-certainty that it will be blown again unless I can find and remove
> the fault that blew the other two.

What model of Mac Pro is it?

Some of the 2008-2012 Pros are quite respectable in modern terms, especially
if you fit a Metal compatible GPU and maybe a USB card. The 2013 Pro is
also good, but not very upgradeable.

The older ones can't run OCLP so are stuck on Apple's last OS, which must be
very outdated now.

(if you have a 2008-10 Mac Pro you might also be able to rob Jaimie's Xserve
for bits :-)

Theo

On 2024-04-12 5:39:14 pm +0000, Liz Tuddenham said:

> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> You reminded me that I have an old iMac, running OS 10.4.11 which was
>>> bought for one specific audio job and then mothballed as all-but-useless
>>> for anything else. I have resurrected it and found that it is
>>> impossible to update either of the browsers (Firefox 3.6.28 & Safari
>>> 3.9.4) because neither of them can contact their update sites. I tried
>>> Firefox with an "http" site and it worked if I typed in the URL by
>>> hand, but linking to the site through Google doesn't work because Google
>>> insists on appending an incorrect 's',.
>>
>> If that's a PowerPC iMac then you're stuck with TenFourFox, which is now
>> abandoned:
>> https://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/
>>
>> (maybe its links will also work with http?)
>>
>> If it's an aluminium 2007 Intel iMac (shipped with 10.4) then OCLP might be
>> able to take it up to Ventura if you upgrade the CPU:
>>
>> https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.html
>>
>> Before you spend money on it I'd check pricing of more recent used machines
>> - eg for £50 on ebay you can get a ~2011-13.
>
> That's the sort of information I am looking for - a machine that can be
> upgraded to a browser that at least works most of the time on 'ordinary'
> websites.
>
> Another possibility is to buy a replacement power supply for the Mac
> Pro, they are being sold for around £40. The problem with that is the
> near-certainty that it will be blown again unless I can find and remove
> the fault that blew the other two.

<https://classic.waterfox.net> or <https://www.palemoon.org>?
--
Cheers ... Mark

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > Alternatively I could buy something secondhand. What is currently the
> > cheapest Mac kit that will run a reliable Web browser, play DVDs and
> > connect to a Cinema Display? [The sum total of my requirements -
> > although the ability to do Zoom calls might be helpful.] Ethernet
> > connection is essential and a USB port or two would be handy for the
> > keyboard and mouse.
>
> No idea as to 'cheapest', but 2011-2012 Mac Minis were going for cheap when
> I looked recently. Maybe 2014s as well (but no upgradeable RAM on those).
> The 2012 or later have USB 3 which is handy for peripherals.

I've given it careful consideration and bought a late-2012 Mac Mini

> No DVD slot, but you can have a USB DVD drive.

They seem cheap enough, so I'll add one once the machine arrives and I
am happy with it.

> If the Cinema Display has DVI, so you can have an HDMI to DVI adapter.

I've ordered one which also has a VGA port, as I may want to drive a
projector or a much older spare display from it.

>... If you need a higher resolution...

Unlikely.

I had to use a friend's tablet to place the order on eBay because their
login procedure now freezes my MacBook.

I'll keep you updated.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > > Alternatively I could buy something secondhand. What is currently the
> > > cheapest Mac kit that will run a reliable Web browser, play DVDs and
> > > connect to a Cinema Display? [The sum total of my requirements -
> > > although the ability to do Zoom calls might be helpful.] Ethernet
> > > connection is essential and a USB port or two would be handy for the
> > > keyboard and mouse.
> >
> > No idea as to 'cheapest', but 2011-2012 Mac Minis were going for cheap when
> > I looked recently. Maybe 2014s as well (but no upgradeable RAM on those).
> > The 2012 or later have USB 3 which is handy for peripherals.
>
> I've given it careful consideration and bought a late-2012 Mac Mini

That sounds a reasonable choice.

I'd suggest:

- upgrading it to the latest MacOS that Apple have for it (System
Preferences->Software update). This means you're on the latest version of
the firmware, which will affect you even if you then:

- install Ventura or Monterey via OCLP:
https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/

I suggest starting with Ventura and seeing how it goes, if you have too many
problems then try installing Monterey instead. You can also use the latest
Sonoma, but Sonoma support in OCLP is still early and it seems there are
some graphics problems.

> > If the Cinema Display has DVI, so you can have an HDMI to DVI adapter.
>
> I've ordered one which also has a VGA port, as I may want to drive a
> projector or a much older spare display from it.

OK. Note that you probably can't do more than 1920x1080 because it'll only
be single link DVI.

> I had to use a friend's tablet to place the order on eBay because their
> login procedure now freezes my MacBook.

If you're not going to use OCLP, the latest official OS is Catalina. I've
been finding the older Safari won't work on various websites due to its age,
so I'd recommend installing an alternative browser (I suggest Firefox, but
many others are still updated).

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

[...]
> I'd suggest:
>
> - upgrading it to the latest MacOS that Apple have for it (System
> Preferences->Software update). This means you're on the latest version of
> the firmware, which will affect you even if you then:
>
> - install Ventura or Monterey via OCLP:
> https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
>
> I suggest starting with Ventura and seeing how it goes, if you have too many
> problems then try installing Monterey instead.

It is currently running Catalina. I'll leave it alone for a while until
I am confident with it, then try upgrading it

>You can also use the latest
> Sonoma, but Sonoma support in OCLP is still early and it seems there are
> some graphics problems.

If there's no urgent need for it yet, I'll wait until they develop a
stable version.

> > > If the Cinema Display has DVI, so you can have an HDMI to DVI adapter.
> >
> > I've ordered one which also has a VGA port, as I may want to drive a
> > projector or a much older spare display from it.
>
> OK. Note that you probably can't do more than 1920x1080 because it'll only
> be single link DVI.

I'm not expecting any stuunning graphics, the projector is very basic
and low-definition. The adaptors seem fairly cheap, so I suppose I
could always upgrade later if I find there is a problem.

> > I had to use a friend's tablet to place the order on eBay because their
> > login procedure now freezes my MacBook.
>
> If you're not going to use OCLP, the latest official OS is Catalina. I've
> been finding the older Safari won't work on various websites due to its age,
> so I'd recommend installing an alternative browser (I suggest Firefox, but
> many others are still updated).

I've always got on well with Firefox so it would be my browser of choice
- as long as there are good ad-blockers available.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 06/05/2024 19:53, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>
> I've always got on well with Firefox so it would be my browser of choice
> - as long as there are good ad-blockers available.
>
AdBlockPlus?

Seems to work well for me

On 06.05.24 20:53, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> I've always got on well with Firefox so it would be my browser of choice
> - as long as there are good ad-blockers available.

addons://detail/uBlock0@raymondhill.net
https://addons.mozilla.org/de/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/?utm_source=addons.mozilla.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=search

Noncommercial and unbiased.

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

David Kennedy <davidkennedygm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/05/2024 19:53, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> >
> > I've always got on well with Firefox so it would be my browser of choice
> > - as long as there are good ad-blockers available.
> >
> AdBlockPlus?
>
> Seems to work well for me

uBlock Origin works well for me.

On the video adapter, with HDMI to single link DVI you'll only get 1920x1080
on the Cinema Display. There seem to be plenty of 'HDMI to dual link DVI'
adapters for peanuts on ebay but if you dig into the small print they only
go to 1080p - I think by 'dual link DVI' they have a DVI connector with the
extra pins but they don't actually connect them anywhere, so they're really
single-link. It needs an active adapter, of which there were few about:
https://superuser.com/questions/332099/does-a-hdmi-to-dvi-dual-link-adapter-exist-i-dont-care-about-the-price

If you want to drive the panel at native resolution you'll need one of those
fancy dual-link DVI adapters (about £50 for the offical Apple
mini-Displayport one on ebay). Back in the day there were some third party
alternatives - it's possible you might pick one of those up for less. (I
think they were a bit less reliable than the Apple one, but we were using
them with erratic Samsung 30" 2560x1600 LCDs so no experience with the
Cinema Display)

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> David Kennedy <davidkennedygm@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 06/05/2024 19:53, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always got on well with Firefox so it would be my browser of choice
> > > - as long as there are good ad-blockers available.
> > >
> > AdBlockPlus?
> >
> > Seems to work well for me
>
> uBlock Origin works well for me.
>
> On the video adapter, with HDMI to single link DVI you'll only get 1920x1080
> on the Cinema Display. There seem to be plenty of 'HDMI to dual link DVI'
> adapters for peanuts on ebay but if you dig into the small print they only
> go to 1080p - I think by 'dual link DVI' they have a DVI connector with the
> extra pins but they don't actually connect them anywhere, so they're really
> single-link. It needs an active adapter, of which there were few about:
> https://superuser.com/questions/332099/does-a-hdmi-to-dvi-dual-link-adapte
> r-exist-i-dont-care-about-the-price
>
> If you want to drive the panel at native resolution you'll need one of those
> fancy dual-link DVI adapters (about £50 for the offical Apple
> mini-Displayport one on ebay). Back in the day there were some third party
> alternatives - it's possible you might pick one of those up for less. (I
> think they were a bit less reliable than the Apple one, but we were using
> them with erratic Samsung 30" 2560x1600 LCDs so no experience with the
> Cinema Display)

Thanks, when it arrives I'll get a better idea of whether I find the low
resolution tolerable. The screen is 17.5" wide, so 1920 pixels across
that width is equivalent to 109 DPI.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 5. May 2024 at 19:10:09 CEST, "Liz Tuddenham" <Liz Tuddenham> wrote:

> I've ordered one which also has a VGA port, as I may want to drive a
> projector or a much older spare display from it.

If you (or anybody else here) can use those:

<https://bremac.de/Adapter1.jpg>
<https://bremac.de/Adapter2.jpg>

Just shout.
They´re only gathering dust over here and I thought about throwing them out
anyway. (Not all of them are original Apple)

I´m happy to send them over if you cover the shipping cost (from Germany).

Bernd Froehlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:

> On 5. May 2024 at 19:10:09 CEST, "Liz Tuddenham" <Liz Tuddenham> wrote:
>
> > I've ordered one which also has a VGA port, as I may want to drive a
> > projector or a much older spare display from it.
>
> If you (or anybody else here) can use those:
>
> <https://bremac.de/Adapter1.jpg>
> <https://bremac.de/Adapter2.jpg>
>
> Just shout.
> They´re only gathering dust over here and I thought about throwing them out
> anyway. (Not all of them are original Apple)
>
> I´m happy to send them over if you cover the shipping cost (from Germany).

They are just the sort of thing I am looking for -- and a separate
small one for each purpose would be more convenient than the big
universal one I have already ordered. If I took you up on your offer,
have you any idea how much the postage would be?

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 7. May 2024 at 10:10:39 CEST, "Liz Tuddenham" <Liz Tuddenham> wrote:

> They are just the sort of thing I am looking for -- and a separate
> small one for each purpose would be more convenient than the big
> universal one I have already ordered. If I took you up on your offer,
> have you any idea how much the postage would be?

That would be around 10€
And I would have to fill in a form for toll...
Send me a mail with your address and I can send it off and we hope I fill
that form right :-)

Bernd Froehlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:
> On 5. May 2024 at 19:10:09 CEST, "Liz Tuddenham" <Liz Tuddenham> wrote:
>
> > I've ordered one which also has a VGA port, as I may want to drive a
> > projector or a much older spare display from it.
>
> If you (or anybody else here) can use those:
>
> <https://bremac.de/Adapter1.jpg>
> <https://bremac.de/Adapter2.jpg>
>
> Just shout.
> They´re only gathering dust over here and I thought about throwing them out
> anyway. (Not all of them are original Apple)
>
> I´m happy to send them over if you cover the shipping cost (from Germany).

I'm in no way begrudging your generous offer :-) but just to point out that
these aren't the dual-link DVI adapter, they're only single link. You can
see the differences here:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111808

But if 1920x1200 is enough (my mistake, I thought 1080p was the max - seems
it can just about squeeze 1200 lines if your monitor supports that
resolution) then I'd 100% prefer an Apple one over a third party adapter.
Plus with a handful you can play lucky dip :-)

The Mini has two Thunderbolt 2 / miniDisplayport connectors on the back, so
you can use them to drive two displays.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Bernd Froehlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:
> > On 5. May 2024 at 19:10:09 CEST, "Liz Tuddenham" <Liz Tuddenham> wrote:
> >
> > > I've ordered one which also has a VGA port, as I may want to drive a
> > > projector or a much older spare display from it.
> >
> > If you (or anybody else here) can use those:
> >
> > <https://bremac.de/Adapter1.jpg>
> > <https://bremac.de/Adapter2.jpg>
> >
> > Just shout.
> > They´re only gathering dust over here and I thought about throwing them out
> > anyway. (Not all of them are original Apple)
> >
> > I´m happy to send them over if you cover the shipping cost (from Germany).
>
> I'm in no way begrudging your generous offer :-) but just to point out that
> these aren't the dual-link DVI adapter, they're only single link. You can
> see the differences here:
>
> https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111808

I did realise that but the convenience of having separate adaptors for
the projector and the 'emergency' spare display would be worth the
postage to me. I can optimise the Cinema display interface later, once
I get it going and get access to eBay and PayPal, so I can buy the
appropriate bits.

> But if 1920x1200 is enough (my mistake, I thought 1080p was the max - seems
> it can just about squeeze 1200 lines if your monitor supports that
> resolution) then I'd 100% prefer an Apple one over a third party adapter.
> Plus with a handful you can play lucky dip :-)
>
> The Mini has two Thunderbolt 2 / miniDisplayport connectors on the back, so
> you can use them to drive two displays.

I suppose one display and a projector might come in handy some time, but
if I had two cinema displays in the house there would be no room left
for me.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Bernd Froehlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:

> On 7. May 2024 at 10:10:39 CEST, "Liz Tuddenham" <Liz Tuddenham> wrote:
>
> > They are just the sort of thing I am looking for -- and a separate
> > small one for each purpose would be more convenient than the big
> > universal one I have already ordered. If I took you up on your offer,
> > have you any idea how much the postage would be?
>
> That would be around 10€
> And I would have to fill in a form for toll...
> Send me a mail with your address and I can send it off and we hope I fill
> that form right :-)

E-mail sent. Many Thanks.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk