When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?

On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
wrote:

>When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?

IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)

Nick

Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> writes:

> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>
> IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
> colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
> to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
> above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)

SPOILER

->>

->>

->>

->>

->>

According to Wikipedia she played the quintessentially-English Clarissa
Dalloway in a stage dramatisation the not-quite eponymous novel. But I don't
recall the cries of outrage from Middle England.

Rosie

On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>
>IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>
>Nick

Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
white.

On 07-Mar-24 10:25, Vicky wrote:
> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
> did we? Did someone mention colour?

There episodes where the couple visited Ambridge, and not a single
person in Ambridge ever mentioned the subject.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:25:58 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>>did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>>husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>>husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>>white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>>
>>IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>>colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>>to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>>above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>>
>>Nick
>
>
>Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
>white.

I meant both names sound white.

On 07/03/2024 19:27, Vicky wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:25:58 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>>> did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>>> husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>>> husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>>> white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>>>
>>> IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>>> colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>>> to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>>> above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>>>
>>> Nick
>>
>>
>> Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
>> white.
>
> I meant both names sound white.

A dangerous assumption, particularly when dealing with the West Indies
(St Lucia, I believe) where many surnames will be derived from slave owners.

As to your original questions, Vicky, my view is that it doesn't matter
any which way.

john

Vicky wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:25:58 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>>On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>>>did we?

I think it might have been mentioned in a conversation about Kate's
pregnancy between the then Prince Charles and the then Duchess of
Cambridge - oh: wait a moment...

>>>>Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>>>husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>>>husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>>>white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>>>
>>>IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>>>colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>>>to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>>>above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>>>
>>>Nick
>>
>>
>>Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
>>white.

> I meant both names sound white.

To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
about her appearance before.

Nick

On 07-Mar-24 20:45, nick wrote:
> Vicky wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:25:58 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>>>> did we?
>
> I think it might have been mentioned in a conversation about Kate's
> pregnancy between the then Prince Charles and the then Duchess of
> Cambridge - oh: wait a moment...
>
>
>>>>> Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>>>> husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>>>> husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>>>> white Bajan?  Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>>>>
>>>> IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>>>> colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>>>> to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>>>> above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
>>> white.
>
>> I meant both names sound white.
>
> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
> about her appearance before.

That's the strange thing about radio.
I never have much of an opinion about what face goes with the voices I
hear yet when I see a photograph, my reaction often is "They look
nothing like that!"

--
Sam Plusnet

In message <lPtGN.355039$yEgf.1269@fx09.iad> at Fri, 8 Mar 2024
01:26:42, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
[]
>That's the strange thing about radio.
>I never have much of an opinion about what face goes with the voices I
>hear yet when I see a photograph, my reaction often is "They look
>nothing like that!"
>
That's exactly it!

With the slight exception that one or two, where their best friends have
been photographed enough that a slight effect _has_ seeped into my
consciousness. (And the one I've actually met. Who was _very_ nice.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the
law." - Winston Churchill.

On 07/03/2024 20:45, nick wrote:
>
> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
> about her appearance before.
>
<LW>

Now I know though, I can hear a very faint Caribbean lilt. Not that it
matters one whit.

BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/03/2024 20:45, nick wrote:
>>
>> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
>> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
>> about her appearance before.
>>
> <LW>
>
> Now I know though, I can hear a very faint Caribbean lilt. Not that it
> matters one whit.
>
>
>

I propose a scale based on the Whit. There can also be the decades
including the MegaWhit, KilloWhit, MilliWhit and MicroWhit.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 08/03/2024 09:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
> BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 07/03/2024 20:45, nick wrote:
>>>
>>> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
>>> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
>>> about her appearance before.
>>>
>> <LW>
>>
>> Now I know though, I can hear a very faint Caribbean lilt.

So not /totally/ tropical?

>> Not that it
>> matters one whit.
>>
>
> I propose a scale based on the Whit. There can also be the decades
> including the MegaWhit, KilloWhit, MilliWhit and MicroWhit.

Surely 500 milliwhits should have a special name?

--
Cheers
Clive

On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 20:24:08 +0000, john ashby <johnashby20@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 07/03/2024 19:27, Vicky wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:25:58 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>>>> did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>>>> husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>>>> husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>>>> white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>>>>
>>>> IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>>>> colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>>>> to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>>>> above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
>>> white.
>>
>> I meant both names sound white.
>
>A dangerous assumption, particularly when dealing with the West Indies
>(St Lucia, I believe) where many surnames will be derived from slave owners.
>
>As to your original questions, Vicky, my view is that it doesn't matter
>any which way.
>
>john

I think, having seen some articles today on the subject, what I was
doing unconciously was racialization, the process through which
social meaning is assigned to individuals or groups based on shared
characteristics such as phenotype, culture, language, nationality,
religion, and class.

I didn't think of all that or the term, since I'd not heard of it, but
thinking of them as black Bajan made me assume some differences in
family background and habits and culture. Would mothers be a stronger
family role than fathers? Is education and career an important route
for children? Now I think of people from Barbados I think of the
Windrush families. Invited over to do various jobs and fill them when
we needed them.

They'd maybe have different family structures?

On 08/03/2024 10:37, Clive Arthur wrote:
> On 08/03/2024 09:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2024 20:45, nick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
>>>> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
>>>> about her appearance before.
>>>>
>>> <LW>
>>>
>>> Now I know though, I can hear a very faint Caribbean lilt.
>
> So not /totally/ tropical?

LOL

Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/03/2024 09:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2024 20:45, nick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
>>>> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
>>>> about her appearance before.
>>>>
>>> <LW>
>>>
>>> Now I know though, I can hear a very faint Caribbean lilt.
>
> So not /totally/ tropical?
>
>>> Not that it
>>> matters one whit.
>>>
>>
>> I propose a scale based on the Whit. There can also be the decades
>> including the MegaWhit, KilloWhit, MilliWhit and MicroWhit.
>
> Surely 500 milliwhits should have a special name?
>

I’m too much of a halfwit to work that one out!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes:

> BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 07/03/2024 20:45, nick wrote:
>>>
>>> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
>>> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
>>> about her appearance before.
>>>
>> <LW>
>>
>> Now I know though, I can hear a very faint Caribbean lilt. Not that it
>> matters one whit.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I propose a scale based on the Whit. There can also be the decades
> including the MegaWhit, KilloWhit, MilliWhit and MicroWhit.

Although I like Denise's friend's slighty husky tones I don't care a
quectowhit for the tint of her epidermis and won't let it detain me for
more than a microfortnight.

Rosie

In message <87v85wu65y.fsf@milou> at Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:52:57, Rosie
Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> writes
>Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes:
[]
>> I propose a scale based on the Whit. There can also be the decades
>> including the MegaWhit, KilloWhit, MilliWhit and MicroWhit.
>
>Although I like Denise's friend's slighty husky tones I don't care a
>quectowhit for the tint of her epidermis and won't let it detain me for
>more than a microfortnight.
>
>Rosie
>
>
You remind me of a uni friend who liked the picoparsec! (I think it was
about a mile; I CBA to check now.) A Microfortnight is about a second!
(1.2096 seconds to be precise.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The average age of a single mum in this country is 37
- Jane Rackham, RT 2016/5/28-6/3

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes:

> In message <87v85wu65y.fsf@milou> at Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:52:57, Rosie
> Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> writes
>>Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes:
> []
>>> I propose a scale based on the Whit. There can also be the decades
>>> including the MegaWhit, KilloWhit, MilliWhit and MicroWhit.
>>
>>Although I like Denise's friend's slighty husky tones I don't care a
>>quectowhit for the tint of her epidermis and won't let it detain me for
>>more than a microfortnight.
>>
>>Rosie
>>
>>
> You remind me of a uni friend who liked the picoparsec! (I think it
> was about a mile; I CBA to check now.) A Microfortnight is about a
> second! (1.2096 seconds to be precise.)

An attoparsec is about 1.2 inches and picos is 10⁶ attos to a picoparsec
would be more like 32 miles.

Naturally there are conversion apps for various units including the
attoparsecs to metres one at

https://www.convertunits.com/from/attoparsec/to/meter

Rosie

On 07/03/2024 10:25, Vicky wrote:
> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
> did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
> husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
> husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
> white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?

IIRC, there was some mention of Paul's colour, not that long after he
came to work in Ambridge. It was made clear, at the time, that Denise
was also a woman of colour but I don't think anything was said at that
stage, about whether John was white, or about his origins. As Denise
and Paul had different surnames, it wasn't even clear whether John was
Paul's dad, or step-dad.

--
Best wishes, Serena
Never say "OOPS!" always say "Ah, Interesting!"

On 08/03/2024 10:37, Clive Arthur wrote:
> On 08/03/2024 09:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2024 20:45, nick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
>>>> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
>>>> about her appearance before.
>>>>
>>> <LW>
>>>
>>> Now I know though, I can hear a very faint Caribbean lilt.
>
> So not /totally/ tropical?
>
>>> Not that it
>>> matters one whit.
>>>
>>
>> I propose a scale based on the Whit. There can also be the decades
>> including the MegaWhit, KilloWhit, MilliWhit and MicroWhit.
>
> Surely 500 milliwhits should have a special name?
>

<snort!>

--
Best wishes, Serena
Smile, breathe and go slowly (Thich Nhat Hanh)

In message <87msr8u0uc.fsf@milou> at Fri, 8 Mar 2024 16:47:55, Rosie
Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> writes
[]
>An attoparsec is about 1.2 inches and picos is 100 >would be more like 32 miles.
>
>Naturally there are conversion apps for various units including the
>attoparsecs to metres one at
>
>https://www.convertunits.com/from/attoparsec/to/meter
>
>Rosie
>
Then there is:

# 10^-12 boos = 1 picoboo # 2*10^3 mockingbirds = 2 kilo mockingbird
# 10^21 piccolos = 1 gigolo # 10^12 microphones = 1 megaphone
# 10**9 questions = 1 gigawhat
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you are afraid of being lonely, don't try to be right. - Jules Renard,
writer (1864-1910)

On 07/03/2024 11:53, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>> did we? Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>> husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>> husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>> white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>
> IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
> colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
> to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
> above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>
> Nick

In last week's RT (2nd-8th March), "Ambridge Diary" included a picture
of Denise.

--
CaroleT

nick <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Vicky wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:25:58 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>>>> did we?
>
> I think it might have been mentioned in a conversation about Kate's
> pregnancy between the then Prince Charles and the then Duchess of
> Cambridge - oh: wait a moment...
>
>
>>>>> Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>>>> husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>>>> husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>>>> white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>>>>
>>>> IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>>>> colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>>>> to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>>>> above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
>>> white.
>
>> I meant both names sound white.
>
> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
> about her appearance before.
>
> Nick
>

Common 1950s/60s name. I grew up with at least two of my own age at
boarding school.

Mrs McT

Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> nick <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> Vicky wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:25:58 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 11:53:42 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 10:25:46 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When Kate got married in SA we found out her husband was black. How
>>>>>> did we?
>>
>> I think it might have been mentioned in a conversation about Kate's
>> pregnancy between the then Prince Charles and the then Duchess of
>> Cambridge - oh: wait a moment...
>>
>>
>>>>>> Did someone mention colour? I'm now wondering about Denise and
>>>>>> husband and son. Her mother-in-law lives in ..Barbados was it? Her
>>>>>> husband comes from there. Are they a mixed race couple or is he a
>>>>>> white Bajan? Or are both black and we didn't notice, or care?
>>>>>
>>>>> IMO whilst The Archers might do blind casting, it doesn't do
>>>>> colour-blind casting so a Google image search on Clare Perkins ought
>>>>> to tell you all you want to know. (I did just that before writing the
>>>>> above but didn't want this to be a spoiler.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, thanks. The name or neither name, chracter and actor, sound
>>>> white.
>>
>>> I meant both names sound white.
>>
>> To be honest, to me Denise just sounds.. well.. nice. I like
>> the way her personality is portrayed. I hadn't thought at all
>> about her appearance before.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>
> Common 1950s/60s name. I grew up with at least two of my own age at
> boarding school.
>
> Mrs McT
>
>

I would have joined in their games but …. Da knees wouldn’t let me!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan