A friend of mine has a lovely garden (potentially), which backs on to a
field - a large pasture for horses.

It used to be 90% lawn and a few shrubs, but about 3 years ago they
decided they'd like a floral view from their living room window, so
engaged a gardener to design and install some borders - the largest of
which (about 2m by 50m) backs on to the field.

Fast forward: they are not themselves "gardeners" as such [they have
found!]. They have done almost nothing with their borders, which are now
terribly overgrown, with some plants having asserted themselves over the
smaller ones, and it's basically all gone wild.

And it is all shot-through with couch grass. Today my wife and went
along to try and help them out: I had not appreciated the dominance of
the couch grass until I forked into the soil and found that - basically
- it's a solid, interwoven mat, a few inches down beneath the surface.

Our friends have been dismayed by it all (right at the start, they found
that they'd have to find time to work on it ... and they couldn't).

I'm stuck for what to recommend, short of digging it all out, resowing
with lawn seed. and just mowing it in the future (thus automatically
controlling the couch grass).

Another strategy might be ...

1. Dig out all the plants that they want to keep (and tease the couch
grass from their roots).

2. Spray the entire border with a good weedkiller.

3. Install "weedproof" mat over the soil thus treated. (I hate this
stuff myself, but it might make the couch grass think twice).

4. Unload 2-3 tons of wood chippings on to the mat.

5. Re-plant the plants they want to keep in large pots, and stand them
on the wood chippings.

6. Keep on top of it all in future!

Footnote: the soil is beautiful, fine, and sandy, the property being
situated in an ancient river valley.

Any alternative suggestions, please?

Best wishes all

John

On 15/08/2023 17:14, Another John wrote:
> A friend of mine has a lovely garden (potentially), which backs on to a
> field - a large pasture for horses.
>
> It used to be 90% lawn and a few shrubs, but about 3 years ago they
> decided they'd like a floral view from their living room window, so
> engaged a gardener to design and install some borders - the largest of
> which (about 2m by 50m) backs on to the field.
>
> Fast forward: they are not themselves "gardeners" as such [they have
> found!]. They have done almost nothing with their borders, which are now
> terribly overgrown, with some plants having asserted themselves over the
> smaller ones, and it's basically all gone wild.
>
> And it is all shot-through with couch grass. Today my wife and went
> along to try and help them out: I had not appreciated the dominance of
> the couch grass until I forked into the soil and found that - basically
> - it's a solid, interwoven mat, a few inches down beneath the surface.
>
> Our friends have been dismayed by it all (right at the start, they found
> that they'd have to find time to work on it ... and they couldn't).
>
> I'm stuck for what to recommend, short of digging it all out, resowing
> with lawn seed. and just mowing it in the future (thus automatically
> controlling the couch grass).
>
>
> Another strategy might be ...
>
> 1. Dig out all the plants that they want to keep (and tease the couch
> grass from their roots).
>
> 2. Spray the entire border with a good weedkiller.
>
> 3. Install "weedproof" mat over the soil thus treated. (I hate this
> stuff myself, but it might make the couch grass think twice).
>
> 4. Unload 2-3 tons of wood chippings on to the mat.
>
> 5. Re-plant the plants they want to keep in large pots, and stand them
> on the wood chippings.
>
> 6. Keep on top of it all in future!
>
> Footnote: the soil is beautiful, fine, and sandy, the property being
> situated in an ancient river valley.
>
>
> Any alternative suggestions, please?

Unfortunately, although there used to be selective weedkillers which
killed grass only, they don't seem to be available now, even to
professionals. Glyphosate is an effective weedkiller which will kill
couch, but it will also kill just about anything else with green leaves.
If they're willing to take the risk, I'd suggest this:

When the weather cools down In mid autumn, dig up what shrubs they can,
particularly the evergreen ones, and put in pots. Before it gets too
cold, mow the whole plot as low as possible. Wait a week for the couch
to start growing, cover any obvious perennials with a piece of polythene
sheet, and spray the whole plot with glyphosate. Hopefully, this will
act on the grass, and very few of the herbaceous perennials which were
not covered. If the weather stays mild, repeat the spraying in a couple
of weeks.

In spring, check for any of the herbaceous perennials showing. If there
are any, again cover them with a piece of polythene sheet. Spray again
with glyphosate, avoiding the polythene as much as possible.

It's a lot of work, but /hopefully/ most of the perennials will survive.
By the way, in my experience you'd be very unlucky to kill bulbs this way.

--

Jeff

On 15/08/2023 17:14, Another John wrote:
> Any alternative suggestions, please?

I'm turning part of my garden over to a wildflower meadow. It's getting
going - we've had lovely displays of some plants earlier in the year,
though it's now at the point where I need to cut it all down, and not so
pretty.

But the reason I mention this is that every author says that the
critical ingredient to get this going is yellow rattle

<https://www.wildlifetrusts.org/wildlife-explorer/wildflowers/yellow-rattle>

"Yellow-rattle is an annual that thrives in grasslands, living a
semi-parasitic life by feeding off the nutrients in the roots of nearby
grasses."

And indeed the grass where it's got well established is not looking at
all healthy.

I wonder if it would help you?

Andy

On 15/08/2023 17:14, Another John wrote:
> A friend of mine has a lovely garden (potentially), which backs on to a
> field - a large pasture for horses.
>
> It used to be 90% lawn and a few shrubs, but about 3 years ago they
> decided they'd like a floral view from their living room window, so
> engaged a gardener to design and install some borders - the largest of
> which (about 2m by 50m) backs on to the field.
>
> Fast forward: they are not themselves "gardeners" as such [they have
> found!]. They have done almost nothing with their borders, which are now
> terribly overgrown, with some plants having asserted themselves over the
> smaller ones, and it's basically all gone wild.
>
> And it is all shot-through with couch grass. Today my wife and went
> along to try and help them out: I had not appreciated the dominance of
> the couch grass until I forked into the soil and found that - basically
> - it's a solid, interwoven mat, a few inches down beneath the surface.
>
> Our friends have been dismayed by it all (right at the start, they found
> that they'd have to find time to work on it ... and they couldn't).
>
> I'm stuck for what to recommend, short of digging it all out, resowing
> with lawn seed. and just mowing it in the future (thus automatically
> controlling the couch grass).
>
>
> Another strategy might be ...
>
> 1. Dig out all the plants that they want to keep (and tease the couch
> grass from their roots).
>
> 2. Spray the entire border with a good weedkiller.
>
> 3. Install "weedproof" mat over the soil thus treated. (I hate this
> stuff myself, but it might make the couch grass think twice).
>
> 4. Unload 2-3 tons of wood chippings on to the mat.
>
> 5. Re-plant the plants they want to keep in large pots, and stand them
> on the wood chippings.
>
> 6. Keep on top of it all in future!
>
> Footnote: the soil is beautiful, fine, and sandy, the property being
> situated in an ancient river valley.
>
>
> Any alternative suggestions, please?
>
> Best wishes all
>
> John

I had that here. Unless the soil is really dense clay, what works is
simply to settle down and spend the time weeding and pruning it. On a
really wild bed, I work on the basis of one square metre per hour.
Then you need to revisit it every 2 months or so in the summer and
autumn. By which time you can speed up to around 2-3 sq m per hr.

There really are no short cuts. Spraying it back with glyphosate is as
likely to kill all the plants in there, and you might as well strinm it
and mow it flat if thats what you want.

The real decision is whether or not they are prepared to spend (or pay
someone else to spend) a few hours a week to keep it all in check. If
not plant shrubs and ground cover plants or mow it flat.

Couch has roots, yes, but keep on digging them up and in the end it
doesn't have any!

Or use the glyphosate soaked 'glove of death' to kill it and THEN dig it up

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

On 16/08/2023 09:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 15/08/2023 17:14, Another John wrote:
>> A friend of mine has a lovely garden (potentially), which backs on to a
>> field - a large pasture for horses.
>>
>> It used to be 90% lawn and a few shrubs, but about 3 years ago they
>> decided they'd like a floral view from their living room window, so
>> engaged a gardener to design and install some borders - the largest of
>> which (about 2m by 50m) backs on to the field.
>>
>> Fast forward: they are not themselves "gardeners" as such [they have
>> found!]. They have done almost nothing with their borders, which are now
>> terribly overgrown, with some plants having asserted themselves over the
>> smaller ones, and it's basically all gone wild.
>>
>> And it is all shot-through with couch grass.  Today my wife and went
>> along to try and help them out:  I had not appreciated the dominance of
>> the couch grass until I forked into the soil and found that - basically
>> - it's a solid, interwoven mat, a few inches down beneath the surface.
>>
>> Our friends have been dismayed by it all (right at the start, they found
>> that they'd have to find time to work on it ... and they couldn't).
>>
>> I'm stuck for what to recommend, short of digging it all out, resowing
>> with lawn seed. and just mowing it in the future (thus automatically
>> controlling the couch grass).
>>
>>
>> Another strategy might be ...
>>
>> 1. Dig out all the plants that they want to keep (and tease the couch
>> grass from their roots).
>>
>> 2. Spray the entire border with a good weedkiller.
>>
>> 3. Install "weedproof" mat over the soil thus treated.  (I hate this
>> stuff myself, but it might make the couch grass think twice).
>>
>> 4. Unload 2-3 tons of wood chippings on to the mat.
>>
>> 5. Re-plant the plants they want to keep in large pots, and stand them
>> on the wood chippings.
>>
>> 6. Keep on top of it all in future!
>>
>> Footnote: the soil is beautiful, fine, and sandy, the property being
>> situated in an ancient river valley.
>>
>>
>> Any alternative suggestions, please?
>>
>> Best wishes all
>>
>> John
>
> I had that here.  Unless the soil is really dense clay, what works is
> simply to settle down and spend the time weeding and pruning it. On a
> really wild bed, I work on the basis of one square metre per hour.
> Then you need to revisit it every 2 months or so in the summer and
> autumn.  By which time you can speed up to around 2-3 sq m per hr.
>
> There really are no short cuts. Spraying it back with glyphosate is as
> likely to kill all the plants in there, and you might as well strinm it
> and mow it flat if thats what you want.
>
> The real decision is whether or not they are prepared to spend (or pay
> someone else to spend) a few hours a week to keep it all in check. If
> not plant shrubs and ground cover plants or mow it flat.
>
> Couch has roots, yes, but keep on digging them up and in the end it
> doesn't have any!
>
> Or use the glyphosate soaked 'glove of death' to kill it and THEN dig it up

From your original description it seems to me that nothing is going to
work unless you make a couch-proof barrier between the bed and its
surrounding soil. The barrier should not be waterproof, though, and
should extend all the way under it.

Ideally, the soil in the bed should be sifted to find any remaining
small pieces of couch rhizome/runner and the bed replanted with fresh
uncouchy plants.

The bed will be invaded by new rhizomes/runners unless a raised surround
is put in place: the obvious remedy would seem to be a raised bed.

It's a lot of work and IMO it may be too much. The couch will have come
in from the field, and both sides of the bed will be contaminated, maybe
as well as soil well beyond, so couch could invade from all directions.

One might wish to eradicate the grass from the national flora, but it
has its uses: its long stringy roots used to be sold in bundles in some
French markets as, I think, animal feed, so French farmers (WOCAB) *do*
hve their uses..

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 17/08/2023 05:31, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 16/08/2023 09:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 15/08/2023 17:14, Another John wrote:
>>> A friend of mine has a lovely garden (potentially), which backs on to a
>>> field - a large pasture for horses.
>>>
>>> It used to be 90% lawn and a few shrubs, but about 3 years ago they
>>> decided they'd like a floral view from their living room window, so
>>> engaged a gardener to design and install some borders - the largest of
>>> which (about 2m by 50m) backs on to the field.
>>>
>>> Fast forward: they are not themselves "gardeners" as such [they have
>>> found!]. They have done almost nothing with their borders, which are now
>>> terribly overgrown, with some plants having asserted themselves over the
>>> smaller ones, and it's basically all gone wild.
>>>
>>> And it is all shot-through with couch grass.  Today my wife and went
>>> along to try and help them out:  I had not appreciated the dominance of
>>> the couch grass until I forked into the soil and found that - basically
>>> - it's a solid, interwoven mat, a few inches down beneath the surface.
>>>
>>> Our friends have been dismayed by it all (right at the start, they found
>>> that they'd have to find time to work on it ... and they couldn't).
>>>
>>> I'm stuck for what to recommend, short of digging it all out, resowing
>>> with lawn seed. and just mowing it in the future (thus automatically
>>> controlling the couch grass).
>>>
>>>
>>> Another strategy might be ...
>>>
>>> 1. Dig out all the plants that they want to keep (and tease the couch
>>> grass from their roots).
>>>
>>> 2. Spray the entire border with a good weedkiller.
>>>
>>> 3. Install "weedproof" mat over the soil thus treated.  (I hate this
>>> stuff myself, but it might make the couch grass think twice).
>>>
>>> 4. Unload 2-3 tons of wood chippings on to the mat.
>>>
>>> 5. Re-plant the plants they want to keep in large pots, and stand them
>>> on the wood chippings.
>>>
>>> 6. Keep on top of it all in future!
>>>
>>> Footnote: the soil is beautiful, fine, and sandy, the property being
>>> situated in an ancient river valley.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any alternative suggestions, please?
>>>
>>> Best wishes all
>>>
>>> John
>>
>> I had that here.  Unless the soil is really dense clay, what works is
>> simply to settle down and spend the time weeding and pruning it. On a
>> really wild bed, I work on the basis of one square metre per hour.
>> Then you need to revisit it every 2 months or so in the summer and
>> autumn.  By which time you can speed up to around 2-3 sq m per hr.
>>
>> There really are no short cuts. Spraying it back with glyphosate is as
>> likely to kill all the plants in there, and you might as well strinm
>> it and mow it flat if thats what you want.
>>
>> The real decision is whether or not they are prepared to spend (or pay
>> someone else to spend) a few hours a week to keep it all in check. If
>> not plant shrubs and ground cover plants or mow it flat.
>>
>> Couch has roots, yes, but keep on digging them up and in the end it
>> doesn't have any!
>>
>> Or use the glyphosate soaked 'glove of death' to kill it and THEN dig
>> it up
>
> From your original description it seems to me that nothing is going to
> work unless you make a couch-proof barrier between the bed and its
> surrounding soil. The barrier should not be waterproof, though, and
> should extend all the way under it.
>
> Ideally, the soil in the bed should be sifted to find any remaining
> small pieces of couch rhizome/runner and the bed replanted with fresh
> uncouchy plants.
>
> The bed will be invaded by new rhizomes/runners unless a raised surround
> is put in place: the obvious remedy would seem to be a raised bed.
>
> It's a lot of work and IMO it may be too much. The couch will have come
> in from the field, and both sides of the bed will be contaminated, maybe
> as well as soil well beyond, so couch could invade from all directions.
>
> One might wish to eradicate the grass from the national flora, but it
> has its uses: its long stringy roots used to be sold in bundles in some
> French markets as, I think, animal feed, so French farmers (WOCAB) *do*
> hve their uses..
>
If the amount of rime that has been spent trying to eradicate couch
grass by some complex method has been spent instead on ones knees with a
fork, removing it, there would be no couch grass left.

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On 17/08/2023 05:31, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 16/08/2023 09:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 15/08/2023 17:14, Another John wrote:
>>> A friend of mine has a lovely garden (potentially), which backs on to a
>>> field - a large pasture for horses.
>>>
>>> It used to be 90% lawn and a few shrubs, but about 3 years ago they
>>> decided they'd like a floral view from their living room window, so
>>> engaged a gardener to design and install some borders - the largest of
>>> which (about 2m by 50m) backs on to the field.
>>>
>>> Fast forward: they are not themselves "gardeners" as such [they have
>>> found!]. They have done almost nothing with their borders, which are now
>>> terribly overgrown, with some plants having asserted themselves over the
>>> smaller ones, and it's basically all gone wild.
>>>
>>> And it is all shot-through with couch grass.  Today my wife and went
>>> along to try and help them out:  I had not appreciated the dominance of
>>> the couch grass until I forked into the soil and found that - basically
>>> - it's a solid, interwoven mat, a few inches down beneath the surface.
>>>
>>> Our friends have been dismayed by it all (right at the start, they found
>>> that they'd have to find time to work on it ... and they couldn't).
>>>
>>> I'm stuck for what to recommend, short of digging it all out, resowing
>>> with lawn seed. and just mowing it in the future (thus automatically
>>> controlling the couch grass).
>>>
>>>
>>> Another strategy might be ...
>>>
>>> 1. Dig out all the plants that they want to keep (and tease the couch
>>> grass from their roots).
>>>
>>> 2. Spray the entire border with a good weedkiller.
>>>
>>> 3. Install "weedproof" mat over the soil thus treated.  (I hate this
>>> stuff myself, but it might make the couch grass think twice).
>>>
>>> 4. Unload 2-3 tons of wood chippings on to the mat.
>>>
>>> 5. Re-plant the plants they want to keep in large pots, and stand them
>>> on the wood chippings.
>>>
>>> 6. Keep on top of it all in future!
>>>
>>> Footnote: the soil is beautiful, fine, and sandy, the property being
>>> situated in an ancient river valley.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any alternative suggestions, please?
>>>
>>> Best wishes all
>>>
>>> John
>>
>> I had that here.  Unless the soil is really dense clay, what works is
>> simply to settle down and spend the time weeding and pruning it. On a
>> really wild bed, I work on the basis of one square metre per hour.
>> Then you need to revisit it every 2 months or so in the summer and
>> autumn.  By which time you can speed up to around 2-3 sq m per hr.
>>
>> There really are no short cuts. Spraying it back with glyphosate is as
>> likely to kill all the plants in there, and you might as well strinm it
>> and mow it flat if thats what you want.
>>
>> The real decision is whether or not they are prepared to spend (or pay
>> someone else to spend) a few hours a week to keep it all in check. If
>> not plant shrubs and ground cover plants or mow it flat.
>>
>> Couch has roots, yes, but keep on digging them up and in the end it
>> doesn't have any!
>>
>> Or use the glyphosate soaked 'glove of death' to kill it and THEN dig it up
>
> From your original description it seems to me that nothing is going to
> work unless you make a couch-proof barrier between the bed and its
> surrounding soil. The barrier should not be waterproof, though, and
> should extend all the way under it.

Hmm - I think we've all forgotten that it spreads by seed as well as its
roots, and there's a field full of it next door!

--

Jeff

On 17/08/2023 08:57, Jeff Layman wrote:

> Hmm - I think we've all forgotten that it spreads by seed as well as its
> roots, and there's a field full of it next door!
>

I hadn't, but there's only a certain amount of discouragement abody can
take.

Assuming the field *is* being grazed, the seed stalks will be the first
to be devoured.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 17/08/2023 08:57, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 17/08/2023 05:31, RustyHinge wrote:
>> On 16/08/2023 09:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 15/08/2023 17:14, Another John wrote:
>>>> A friend of mine has a lovely garden (potentially), which backs on to a
>>>> field - a large pasture for horses.
>>>>
>>>> It used to be 90% lawn and a few shrubs, but about 3 years ago they
>>>> decided they'd like a floral view from their living room window, so
>>>> engaged a gardener to design and install some borders - the largest of
>>>> which (about 2m by 50m) backs on to the field.
>>>>
>>>> Fast forward: they are not themselves "gardeners" as such [they have
>>>> found!]. They have done almost nothing with their borders, which are
>>>> now
>>>> terribly overgrown, with some plants having asserted themselves over
>>>> the
>>>> smaller ones, and it's basically all gone wild.
>>>>
>>>> And it is all shot-through with couch grass.  Today my wife and went
>>>> along to try and help them out:  I had not appreciated the dominance of
>>>> the couch grass until I forked into the soil and found that - basically
>>>> - it's a solid, interwoven mat, a few inches down beneath the surface.
>>>>
>>>> Our friends have been dismayed by it all (right at the start, they
>>>> found
>>>> that they'd have to find time to work on it ... and they couldn't).
>>>>
>>>> I'm stuck for what to recommend, short of digging it all out, resowing
>>>> with lawn seed. and just mowing it in the future (thus automatically
>>>> controlling the couch grass).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Another strategy might be ...
>>>>
>>>> 1. Dig out all the plants that they want to keep (and tease the couch
>>>> grass from their roots).
>>>>
>>>> 2. Spray the entire border with a good weedkiller.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Install "weedproof" mat over the soil thus treated.  (I hate this
>>>> stuff myself, but it might make the couch grass think twice).
>>>>
>>>> 4. Unload 2-3 tons of wood chippings on to the mat.
>>>>
>>>> 5. Re-plant the plants they want to keep in large pots, and stand them
>>>> on the wood chippings.
>>>>
>>>> 6. Keep on top of it all in future!
>>>>
>>>> Footnote: the soil is beautiful, fine, and sandy, the property being
>>>> situated in an ancient river valley.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any alternative suggestions, please?
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes all
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>
>>> I had that here.  Unless the soil is really dense clay, what works is
>>> simply to settle down and spend the time weeding and pruning it. On a
>>> really wild bed, I work on the basis of one square metre per hour.
>>> Then you need to revisit it every 2 months or so in the summer and
>>> autumn.  By which time you can speed up to around 2-3 sq m per hr.
>>>
>>> There really are no short cuts. Spraying it back with glyphosate is as
>>> likely to kill all the plants in there, and you might as well strinm it
>>> and mow it flat if thats what you want.
>>>
>>> The real decision is whether or not they are prepared to spend (or pay
>>> someone else to spend) a few hours a week to keep it all in check. If
>>> not plant shrubs and ground cover plants or mow it flat.
>>>
>>> Couch has roots, yes, but keep on digging them up and in the end it
>>> doesn't have any!
>>>
>>> Or use the glyphosate soaked 'glove of death' to kill it and THEN dig
>>> it up
>>
>>   From your original description it seems to me that nothing is going to
>> work unless you make a couch-proof barrier between the bed and its
>> surrounding soil. The barrier should not be waterproof, though, and
>> should extend all the way under it.
>
> Hmm - I think we've all forgotten that it spreads by seed as well as its
> roots, and there's a field full of it next door!
>
Indeed, but it spreads mostly by root. And pulling up a small one which
has seeded is a doddle

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

OP here -- thanks a lot folks for these opinions: very useful indeed! I
will pass them on when my wife and I have a "site meeting" with them in
the near future.

Incidentally: RustyHinge said:

> Assuming the field *is* being grazed, the seed stalks will be the first
> to be devoured.

Ah now ... that part of the pasture is not being grazed! The owners
(members of the local gentry) decided to let about a quarter of it go
wild, last year, keeping the horses away from the garden. That quarter
contains the part that borders the garden.

That might have been a kindness, or an accident ... or it might have
been retaliation!? My friend installed an electric fence round his
garden soon after the creation of this border, because the horses had
been leaning over and eating their expensive new plants! I wonder? :-)

Cheers
John

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 4:54:38 PM UTC+1, Another John wrote:
> OP here -- thanks a lot folks for these opinions: very useful indeed! I
> will pass them on when my wife and I have a "site meeting" with them in
> the near future.
> Incidentally: RustyHinge said:
>
> > Assuming the field *is* being grazed, the seed stalks will be the first
> > to be devoured.
> Ah now ... that part of the pasture is not being grazed! The owners
> (members of the local gentry) decided to let about a quarter of it go
> wild, last year, keeping the horses away from the garden. That quarter
> contains the part that borders the garden.
>
> That might have been a kindness, or an accident ... or it might have
> been retaliation!? My friend installed an electric fence round his
> garden soon after the creation of this border, because the horses had
> been leaning over and eating their expensive new plants! I wonder? :-)
>
> Cheers
> John

We are plagued with couch grass in the borders It gows through shrubs and flowers making it difficult to dig out I do find if grasped properly it can be pulled out, root and all. At times I have pinned long strands to one side of the flower/shrub and then treaed it with Roundup. Weeds like, St Paul said about the poor, we will always have with us.