On 01/05/2023 18:25, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 01/05/2023 17:56, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>
>> Urrr.. We've got an old climber (or is it rambler... I forget... SWMBO
>> tells me when to prune) on the back of the house. It's got a nice new
>> shoot from the base, and the rest of it seems to have died just as the
>> leaves were coming out. Should I be worried?
>
> Graft failure? That's assuming it is grafted.
>
Probably not. It came with the house, and we've been here 10 years.

>> Of course the shoot from the base might be the root rose, not the pretty
>> one on top. But I'll worry about that later.
>
> It's probably a shoot from the rootstock if the plant is grafted.
> Sometimes the leaves of the scion and stock are so different so it's
> obvious to tell them apart.
>
It seems to have recovered. If it has dog rose flowers I'll have to dig
it up and start again.

Andy

On 15/05/2023 20:36, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 01/05/2023 18:25, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 01/05/2023 17:56, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>
>>> Urrr.. We've got an old climber (or is it rambler... I forget... SWMBO
>>> tells me when to prune) on the back of the house. It's got a nice new
>>> shoot from the base, and the rest of it seems to have died just as the
>>> leaves were coming out. Should I be worried?
>>
>> Graft failure? That's assuming it is grafted.
>>
> Probably not. It came with the house, and we've been here 10 years.

Graft failure can occur at any time, even years after the graft was made:
<https://www.henrykuppen.nl/en/home/delayed-incompatibility-in-trees-is-still-an-ongoing-issue>

I wonder how old this grafted cherry is!
<https://extension.umd.edu/resource/graft-failure>

>>> Of course the shoot from the base might be the root rose, not the pretty
>>> one on top. But I'll worry about that later.
>>
>> It's probably a shoot from the rootstock if the plant is grafted.
>> Sometimes the leaves of the scion and stock are so different so it's
>> obvious to tell them apart.
>>
> It seems to have recovered. If it has dog rose flowers I'll have to dig
> it up and start again.

But do you know the identity of the rose which died?

--

Jeff

On 15/05/2023 20:59, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 15/05/2023 20:36, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 01/05/2023 18:25, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 01/05/2023 17:56, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Urrr.. We've got an old climber (or is it rambler... I forget... SWMBO
>>>> tells me when to prune) on the back of the house. It's got a nice new
>>>> shoot from the base, and the rest of it seems to have died just as the
>>>> leaves were coming out. Should I be worried?
>>>
>>> Graft failure? That's assuming it is grafted.
>>>
>> Probably not. It came with the house, and we've been here 10 years.
>
> Graft failure can occur at any time, even years after the graft was made:
> <https://www.henrykuppen.nl/en/home/delayed-incompatibility-in-trees-is-still-an-ongoing-issue>
>
> I wonder how old this grafted cherry is!
> <https://extension.umd.edu/resource/graft-failure>
>
That's interesting.

>>>> Of course the shoot from the base might be the root rose, not the
>>>> pretty
>>>> one on top. But I'll worry about that later.
>>>
>>> It's probably a shoot from the rootstock if the plant is grafted.
>>> Sometimes the leaves of the scion and stock are so different so it's
>>> obvious to tell them apart.
>>>
>> It seems to have recovered. If it has dog rose flowers I'll have to dig
>> it up and start again.
>
> But do you know the identity of the rose which died?
>
No. But in any case /She/ is likely to pick another one - it's never
been that good. She does seem to be good at picking them.

Andy

My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
them turned black and died.
The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.

--
Jim the Geordie

On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
> them turned black and died.
> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
>
I am not sure I have ever been able to kill a pyracantha.

I'd suggest since you probably wont get any berries this year a hard
prune back to remove all the dead wood, and hope for berries next year
on the new growth

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
> them turned black and died.
> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.

Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.

Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.

--

Jeff

In article <u2c41g$1hq8i$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
>
> On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> > My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
> > and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
> > them turned black and died.
> > The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
> > whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
>
> Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
> burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
> has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
> it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
>
> Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.

Thanks forn that.
I didn't mention that before the berries shriveled each berry's 'stem'
gree about an inch.

--
Jim the Geordie

In article <MPG.3eb3c07d4f0b7893989744@news.eternal-september.org>,
jim@jimXscott.co.uk says...
>
> In article <u2c41g$1hq8i$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
> >
> > On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> > > My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
> > > and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
> > > them turned black and died.
> > > The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
> > > whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
> >
> > Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
> > burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
> > has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
> > it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
> >
> > Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.
>
> Thanks forn that.
> I didn't mention that before the berries shriveled each berry's 'stem'
> gree about an inch.

GREW

--
Jim the Geordie

On 27/04/2023 00:50, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> In article <MPG.3eb3c07d4f0b7893989744@news.eternal-september.org>,
> jim@jimXscott.co.uk says...
>>
>> In article <u2c41g$1hq8i$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
>>>
>>> On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>>> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
>>>> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
>>>> them turned black and died.
>>>> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
>>>> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
>>>
>>> Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
>>> burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
>>> has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
>>> it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
>>>
>>> Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.
>>
>> Thanks forn that.
>> I didn't mention that before the berries shriveled each berry's 'stem'
>> gree about an inch.
>
> GREW

Oh, I thought it was north-eastern dialect for something, Jim! ;-)

Never heard of the berries' stems growing longer due to fireblight. Have
the leaves been affected? When fireblight hits, it usually goes first
for the new leaves towards the end of the branches, and works its way back.

--

Jeff

In article <u2d7dd$1qil0$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
>
> On 27/04/2023 00:50, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> > In article <MPG.3eb3c07d4f0b7893989744@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > jim@jimXscott.co.uk says...
> >>
> >> In article <u2c41g$1hq8i$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
> >>>
> >>> On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> >>>> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
> >>>> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
> >>>> them turned black and died.
> >>>> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
> >>>> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
> >>>
> >>> Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
> >>> burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
> >>> has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
> >>> it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
> >>>
> >>> Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.
> >>
> >> Thanks forn that.
> >> I didn't mention that before the berries shriveled each berry's 'stem'
> >> gree about an inch.
> >
> > GREW
>
> Oh, I thought it was north-eastern dialect for something, Jim! ;-)
>
> Never heard of the berries' stems growing longer due to fireblight. Have
> the leaves been affected? When fireblight hits, it usually goes first
> for the new leaves towards the end of the branches, and works its way back.

New leaves on branches un-affected seem fine. Where the berries
shrivelled the branches died back to the main stem(s)
Trouble is that there is now a big hole in the middle and I doubt
whether the new shoots will grow inwards to fill it.

--
Jim the Geordie

On 27/04/2023 10:33, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> In article <u2d7dd$1qil0$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
>>
>> On 27/04/2023 00:50, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>> In article <MPG.3eb3c07d4f0b7893989744@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> jim@jimXscott.co.uk says...
>>>>
>>>> In article <u2c41g$1hq8i$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>>>>> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
>>>>>> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
>>>>>> them turned black and died.
>>>>>> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
>>>>>> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
>>>>> burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
>>>>> has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
>>>>> it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks forn that.
>>>> I didn't mention that before the berries shriveled each berry's 'stem'
>>>> gree about an inch.
>>>
>>> GREW
>>
>> Oh, I thought it was north-eastern dialect for something, Jim! ;-)
>>
>> Never heard of the berries' stems growing longer due to fireblight. Have
>> the leaves been affected? When fireblight hits, it usually goes first
>> for the new leaves towards the end of the branches, and works its way back.
>
> New leaves on branches un-affected seem fine. Where the berries
> shrivelled the branches died back to the main stem(s)
> Trouble is that there is now a big hole in the middle and I doubt
> whether the new shoots will grow inwards to fill it.
>
IME with things like seriously hacked down yew trees and other tough
shrubs, stuff grows where there is light.

I hacked an over grown pyracantha a couple of years ago., It's now
beginning to berry again.

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

In article <MPG.3eb451b7e7dc9e55989748@news.eternal-september.org>,
Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:
>
>New leaves on branches un-affected seem fine. Where the berries
>shrivelled the branches died back to the main stem(s)
>Trouble is that there is now a big hole in the middle and I doubt
>whether the new shoots will grow inwards to fill it.

I have a cotoneaster like that, only worse, due to the cold winter.
I would cut it back HARD, to reshape it, and it will probably regrow.
If not, you will have to grub it up.

If it is fireblight, which doesn't seem likely, it will continue to
die back after pruning. That isn't the death on wheels it is usually
claimed to be, and I had a Chaenomeles that lived with it for a good
many years but, when a stem was attacked, the whole stem died.
Plants that shoot from the roots can sometimes survive that, but I
don't think that Pyracantha is one such.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 27/04/2023 10:33, Jim the Geordie wrote:
> In article <u2d7dd$1qil0$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
>>
>> On 27/04/2023 00:50, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>> In article <MPG.3eb3c07d4f0b7893989744@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> jim@jimXscott.co.uk says...
>>>>
>>>> In article <u2c41g$1hq8i$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff@invalid.invalid says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>>>>> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
>>>>>> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
>>>>>> them turned black and died.
>>>>>> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
>>>>>> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
>>>>> burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
>>>>> has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
>>>>> it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks forn that.
>>>> I didn't mention that before the berries shriveled each berry's 'stem'
>>>> gree about an inch.
>>>
>>> GREW
>>
>> Oh, I thought it was north-eastern dialect for something, Jim! ;-)
>>
>> Never heard of the berries' stems growing longer due to fireblight. Have
>> the leaves been affected? When fireblight hits, it usually goes first
>> for the new leaves towards the end of the branches, and works its way back.
>
> New leaves on branches un-affected seem fine. Where the berries
> shrivelled the branches died back to the main stem(s)
> Trouble is that there is now a big hole in the middle and I doubt
> whether the new shoots will grow inwards to fill it.

If those new leaves get to full size and don't show browning, then it's
not fireblight. But there are quite a few "dieback" diseases which are
not easy to identify, are usually untreatable, and ultimately lead to
the death of the plant or disfigure it so much it's not worth keeping. I
lost an old cotoneaster that way almost two years ago.

--

Jeff

In article <u2djr4$1smm9$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>If those new leaves get to full size and don't show browning, then it's
>not fireblight. But there are quite a few "dieback" diseases which are
>not easy to identify, are usually untreatable, and ultimately lead to
>the death of the plant or disfigure it so much it's not worth keeping. I
>lost an old cotoneaster that way almost two years ago.

And some plant/disease combinations that cause die-back, but not enough
to necessitate removing the plant. I have a Cotinus coggygria that was
infected with verticillium wilt over a decade ago, has lost some major
stems and a great deal of bark over the years, but the overall effect
is to mean that it is no longer too vigorous for the location.

But my bet is still on the -10 Celsius nights we had this winter - a
lot of plants have suffered similar damage.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 27/04/2023 13:34, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> But my bet is still on the -10 Celsius nights we had this winter - a
> lot of plants have suffered similar damage.
+1.

It's that glubble worming, innit...

--
"If you don’t read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
news paper, you are mis-informed."

Mark Twain

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 3:01:50 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/04/2023 13:34, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> > But my bet is still on the -10 Celsius nights we had this winter - a
> > lot of plants have suffered similar damage.
> +1.
>
> It's that glubble worming, innit...
>
> --
> "If you don’t read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
> news paper, you are mis-informed."
>
> Mark Twain

I had 2 failures with cotoneaster in the same bed. I gave up and planted a new specimen in a different bed behind the house. Disappointingly it soon started showing the same symptons. My wife, who has green fingers as opposed to my black thumbs, removed all the affected leaves and it has prospered ever since.
Last year a newly planted Madame Lemoine showed similar symptons so I trimmed off all the affected branches and this spring it is coming well

On 27/04/2023 15:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/04/2023 13:34, Nick Maclaren wrote:
>> But my bet is still on the -10 Celsius nights we had this winter - a
>> lot of plants have suffered similar damage.
> +1.
>
> It's that glubble worming, innit...

Or its mate, gullible Wyoming.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

-O

On 26/04/2023 22:11, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
>> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
>> them turned black and died.
>> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
>> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
>
> Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
> burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
> has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
> it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
>
> Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.
>

Urrr.. We've got an old climber (or is it rambler... I forget... SWMBO
tells me when to prune) on the back of the house. It's got a nice new
shoot from the base, and the rest of it seems to have died just as the
leaves were coming out. Should I be worried?

Of course the shoot from the base might be the root rose, not the pretty
one on top. But I'll worry about that later.

Andy

On 01/05/2023 17:56, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 26/04/2023 22:11, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 26/04/2023 19:21, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>> My pyracantha had a mass of berries this winter, but they mainly died
>>> and shrivelled up, but stayed on the plant. Then the stems that bore
>>> them turned black and died.
>>> The other branches seem to have survived and are showing leaves. Is the
>>> whole shrub likely to die as now would be a good time to replace it.
>>
>> Sounds like fireblight. Cut out all the affected stems and if possible
>> burn them. Even if you think you've got a decent plant left, the disease
>> has a habit of coming back and biting you when you least expect it. If
>> it reappears dig up the plant and burn it.
>>
>> Do not put anything from the Rosaceae in the same place.
>>
>
> Urrr.. We've got an old climber (or is it rambler... I forget... SWMBO
> tells me when to prune) on the back of the house. It's got a nice new
> shoot from the base, and the rest of it seems to have died just as the
> leaves were coming out. Should I be worried?

Graft failure? That's assuming it is grafted.

> Of course the shoot from the base might be the root rose, not the pretty
> one on top. But I'll worry about that later.

It's probably a shoot from the rootstock if the plant is grafted.
Sometimes the leaves of the scion and stock are so different so it's
obvious to tell them apart.

--

Jeff