As the City of Edinburgh Council prepares to roll out a second wave of bike storage units across Scotland’s capital, concerns have been raised within the local authority about the cost of storing your bike in one of the hangars – which in some cases is up to three times as expensive as a 12-month car parking permit – an annual price some councillors have described as prohibitive for people on lower incomes.

However, calls to subsidise the £6-a-month bike hangar costs by raising parking charges, especially for the most polluting vehicles, have been criticised by opposition councillors for potentially “pitting drivers against cyclists”.

With the initial phase of Edinburgh’s secure on-street bike parking scheme, established in 2019, leading to the installation of 108 hangars, totalling 1,080 spaces, Edinburgh City Council’s transport and environment committee has now voted to proceed to phase two, which will see 200 units rolled out over the next few years, Edinburgh Live reports (link is external).

The new locations included in the scheme, which is outsourced to Cyclehoop and funded by Sustrans, were chosen based on the volume of requests from residents – there are currently over 1,500 locals on the waiting list for spaces – while the council has noted that areas with traditionally higher levels of deprivation will now have priority.

However, some councillors have raised concerns about the cost of using the hangars which, including a £25 deposit, comes to £97 a year. In contrast, some annual car parking permits in Edinburgh can cost as little as £34.70.

“While a comparison with parking charges is understandable and legitimate, it is worth noting that the cycle hangers require much more intensive management,” a report to the transport and environment committee published on Thursday said.

The report noted that one option for reducing the costs for residents on lower incomes would be to “introduce slightly higher charges outwith areas of deprivation”.

The committee’s convenor Scott Arthur added: “I do think it is right that we look at reducing the cost of the bike hangars, particularly for people on low incomes.

“I’m in two minds about the comparison between bike spaces and parking spaces in terms of cost, because to a certain extent we’re comparing apples and oranges in terms of the service that’s provided – but then I can’t resist myself making the comparison as well.”

Green Party councillor Jule Bandel, on the other hand, offered a much more forthright assessment of the comparison between the bike and car parking costs, and said that the end of Cyclehoop’s contract in 2024 gave the council the perfect opportunity to “explore alternative options” concerning pricing.

“As a principle, bike parking should be cheaper than parking a car, they take up much less public space than a car, they don’t cause any congestion or air pollution,” Bandel said.

“If for whatever reason in-sourcing isn’t advisable and we need to find money to fund a subsidy, our view is that we should be funding it by raising parking charges, especially on the most polluting vehicles.”

However, this call to subsidise bike parking prices was dismissed by Conservative councillor Christopher Cowdy, who said the move would be divisive and “pit drivers against cyclists”.

According to Edinburgh Live, a future meeting of the committee will discuss how best to make the storage scheme more affordable for people on lower incomes, as well as the cost of subsidising the hangars to ensure that they are less expensive than car parking.

The debate in Edinburgh isn’t the first time that bike storage units have been directly compared to car parking spaces.

Last November, Brighton & Hove City Council was forced to respond to a backlash from angered motorists, after a bike hangar was pictured installed in a car parking space.

The cycle hangar in Norfolk Square is one of 60 installed in the city since July, each offering secure storage for six bicycles in a space the size of which could otherwise house a single car.

However, the positioning of the hangar — taking up two resident permit car parking spaces — was met with outrage, with one resident calling it “sheer incompetence or the continuing war by Brighton & Hove City Council against motorists”, before later telling the local paper that he “doesn’t have a problem with the hangars”, just the “madness” of one “that takes up two parking spaces”.

https://road.cc/content/news/subsidising-bike-hangars-would-pit-drivers-against-cyclists-301373

On 21/05/2023 06:36 pm, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
> As the City of Edinburgh Council prepares to roll out a second wave of bike storage units across Scotland’s capital, concerns have been raised within the local authority about the cost of storing your bike in one of the hangars – which in some cases is up to three times as expensive as a 12-month car parking permit – an annual price some councillors have described as prohibitive for people on lower incomes.
>
> However, calls to subsidise the £6-a-month bike hangar costs by raising parking charges, especially for the most polluting vehicles, have been criticised by opposition councillors for potentially “pitting drivers against cyclists”.
>
> With the initial phase of Edinburgh’s secure on-street bike parking scheme, established in 2019, leading to the installation of 108 hangars, totalling 1,080 spaces, Edinburgh City Council’s transport and environment committee has now voted to proceed to phase two, which will see 200 units rolled out over the next few years, Edinburgh Live reports (link is external).
>
> The new locations included in the scheme, which is outsourced to Cyclehoop and funded by Sustrans, were chosen based on the volume of requests from residents – there are currently over 1,500 locals on the waiting list for spaces – while the council has noted that areas with traditionally higher levels of deprivation will now have priority.
>
> However, some councillors have raised concerns about the cost of using the hangars which, including a £25 deposit, comes to £97 a year. In contrast, some annual car parking permits in Edinburgh can cost as little as £34.70.
>
> “While a comparison with parking charges is understandable and legitimate, it is worth noting that the cycle hangers require much more intensive management,” a report to the transport and environment committee published on Thursday said.
>
> The report noted that one option for reducing the costs for residents on lower incomes would be to “introduce slightly higher charges outwith areas of deprivation”.
>
> The committee’s convenor Scott Arthur added: “I do think it is right that we look at reducing the cost of the bike hangars, particularly for people on low incomes.
>
> “I’m in two minds about the comparison between bike spaces and parking spaces in terms of cost, because to a certain extent we’re comparing apples and oranges in terms of the service that’s provided – but then I can’t resist myself making the comparison as well.”
>
> Green Party councillor Jule Bandel, on the other hand, offered a much more forthright assessment of the comparison between the bike and car parking costs, and said that the end of Cyclehoop’s contract in 2024 gave the council the perfect opportunity to “explore alternative options” concerning pricing.
>
> “As a principle, bike parking should be cheaper than parking a car, they take up much less public space than a car, they don’t cause any congestion or air pollution,” Bandel said.
>
> “If for whatever reason in-sourcing isn’t advisable and we need to find money to fund a subsidy, our view is that we should be funding it by raising parking charges, especially on the most polluting vehicles.”
>
> However, this call to subsidise bike parking prices was dismissed by Conservative councillor Christopher Cowdy, who said the move would be divisive and “pit drivers against cyclists”.
>
> According to Edinburgh Live, a future meeting of the committee will discuss how best to make the storage scheme more affordable for people on lower incomes, as well as the cost of subsidising the hangars to ensure that they are less expensive than car parking.
>
> The debate in Edinburgh isn’t the first time that bike storage units have been directly compared to car parking spaces.
>
> Last November, Brighton & Hove City Council was forced to respond to a backlash from angered motorists, after a bike hangar was pictured installed in a car parking space.
>
> The cycle hangar in Norfolk Square is one of 60 installed in the city since July, each offering secure storage for six bicycles in a space the size of which could otherwise house a single car.
>
> However, the positioning of the hangar — taking up two resident permit car parking spaces — was met with outrage, with one resident calling it “sheer incompetence or the continuing war by Brighton & Hove City Council against motorists”, before later telling the local paper that he “doesn’t have a problem with the hangars”, just the “madness” of one “that takes up two parking spaces”.
>
> https://road.cc/content/news/subsidising-bike-hangars-would-pit-drivers-against-cyclists-301373

How many more times is that oafish chav going to post this story?

Probably a bit more - they'll needing fixing when someone tries to break in, or bends the door so it jams. And every year several will need a complete rebuild because a driver drove into them and destroyed them / ripped them off their mountings...

Cllr. Scott Arthur's right about apples and oranges though - having car-parking space encourages having cars. Private cars bring lots of issues and "externalities" (e.g. costs we normally ignore - easy for most as drivers don't directly pay for them).

It's not a zero-sum game but currently those who drive are effectively getting a subsidy (see "externalities" again). Additionally the more motor vehicles there are the less appealing cycling is. (Most people don't like cycling among motor traffic). Finally they take up space which could be used for more efficient modes like cycling.

JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> wrote:
> On 21/05/2023 06:36 pm, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
>> As the City of Edinburgh Council prepares to roll out a second wave of
>> bike storage units across Scotland’s capital, concerns have been raised
>> within the local authority about the cost of storing your bike in one of
>> the hangars – which in some cases is up to three times as expensive as a
>> 12-month car parking permit – an annual price some councillors have
>> described as prohibitive for people on lower incomes.
>>
>> However, calls to subsidise the £6-a-month bike hangar costs by raising
>> parking charges, especially for the most polluting vehicles, have been
>> criticised by opposition councillors for potentially “pitting drivers against cyclists”.
>>
>> With the initial phase of Edinburgh’s secure on-street bike parking
>> scheme, established in 2019, leading to the installation of 108 hangars,
>> totalling 1,080 spaces, Edinburgh City Council’s transport and
>> environment committee has now voted to proceed to phase two, which will
>> see 200 units rolled out over the next few years, Edinburgh Live reports
>> (link is external).
>>
>> The new locations included in the scheme, which is outsourced to
>> Cyclehoop and funded by Sustrans, were chosen based on the volume of
>> requests from residents – there are currently over 1,500 locals on the
>> waiting list for spaces – while the council has noted that areas with
>> traditionally higher levels of deprivation will now have priority.
>>
>> However, some councillors have raised concerns about the cost of using
>> the hangars which, including a £25 deposit, comes to £97 a year. In
>> contrast, some annual car parking permits in Edinburgh can cost as little as £34.70.
>>
>> “While a comparison with parking charges is understandable and
>> legitimate, it is worth noting that the cycle hangers require much more
>> intensive management,” a report to the transport and environment
>> committee published on Thursday said.
>>
>> The report noted that one option for reducing the costs for residents on
>> lower incomes would be to “introduce slightly higher charges outwith
>> areas of deprivation”.
>>
>> The committee’s convenor Scott Arthur added: “I do think it is right
>> that we look at reducing the cost of the bike hangars, particularly for
>> people on low incomes.
>>
>> “I’m in two minds about the comparison between bike spaces and parking
>> spaces in terms of cost, because to a certain extent we’re comparing
>> apples and oranges in terms of the service that’s provided – but then I
>> can’t resist myself making the comparison as well.”
>>
>> Green Party councillor Jule Bandel, on the other hand, offered a much
>> more forthright assessment of the comparison between the bike and car
>> parking costs, and said that the end of Cyclehoop’s contract in 2024
>> gave the council the perfect opportunity to “explore alternative
>> options” concerning pricing.
>>
>> “As a principle, bike parking should be cheaper than parking a car, they
>> take up much less public space than a car, they don’t cause any
>> congestion or air pollution,” Bandel said.
>>
>> “If for whatever reason in-sourcing isn’t advisable and we need to find
>> money to fund a subsidy, our view is that we should be funding it by
>> raising parking charges, especially on the most polluting vehicles.”
>>
>> However, this call to subsidise bike parking prices was dismissed by
>> Conservative councillor Christopher Cowdy, who said the move would be
>> divisive and “pit drivers against cyclists”.
>>
>> According to Edinburgh Live, a future meeting of the committee will
>> discuss how best to make the storage scheme more affordable for people
>> on lower incomes, as well as the cost of subsidising the hangars to
>> ensure that they are less expensive than car parking.
>>
>> The debate in Edinburgh isn’t the first time that bike storage units
>> have been directly compared to car parking spaces.
>>
>> Last November, Brighton & Hove City Council was forced to respond to a
>> backlash from angered motorists, after a bike hangar was pictured
>> installed in a car parking space.
>>
>> The cycle hangar in Norfolk Square is one of 60 installed in the city
>> since July, each offering secure storage for six bicycles in a space the
>> size of which could otherwise house a single car.
>>
>> However, the positioning of the hangar — taking up two resident permit
>> car parking spaces — was met with outrage, with one resident calling it
>> “sheer incompetence or the continuing war by Brighton & Hove City
>> Council against motorists”, before later telling the local paper that he
>> “doesn’t have a problem with the hangars”, just the “madness” of one
>> “that takes up two parking spaces”.

>> https://road.cc/content/news/subsidising-bike-hangars-would-pit-drivers-against-cyclists-301373

> How many more times is that oafish chav going to post this story?

He’s going to squeam and squeam until he gets his way!

--
Spike

When reading this story, keep in mind how much money is spent on cycling
infra.

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> Probably a bit more - they'll needing fixing when someone tries to break
> in, or bends the door so it jams. And every year several will need a
> complete rebuild because a driver drove into them and destroyed them /
> ripped them off their mountings...
>
> Cllr. Scott Arthur's right about apples and oranges though - having
> car-parking space encourages having cars. Private cars bring lots of
> issues and "externalities" (e.g. costs we normally ignore - easy for most
> as drivers don't directly pay for them).
>
> It's not a zero-sum game but currently those who drive are effectively
> getting a subsidy (see "externalities" again). Additionally the more
> motor vehicles there are the less appealing cycling is. (Most people
> don't like cycling among motor traffic). Finally they take up space
> which could be used for more efficient modes like cycling.
>
>

--
Spike

STATO | 591 posts | 9 hours ago
1 like

Id love to see a pic of that bike in one of the hangers, becasue I know from personal experience it wont fit!

Everyone wets themselves over these hangers but fact is they dont fit most Large or XL mtbs since most are now 29ers and hence are longer. My XL commute bike with mudguards only barely fits in the lower 3 of the 6 spaces in each hanger, in the high spaces the bars hit the lid before it shuts.

swldx...@gmail.com <swldxer1958@gmail.com> wrote:
> STATO | 591 posts | 9 hours ago
> 1 like
>
> Id love to see a pic of that bike in one of the hangers, becasue I know
> from personal experience it wont fit!
>
> Everyone wets themselves over these hangers but fact is they dont fit
> most Large or XL mtbs since most are now 29ers and hence are longer. My
> XL commute bike with mudguards only barely fits in the lower 3 of the 6
> spaces in each hanger, in the high spaces the bars hit the lid before it shuts.

Trouble in Paradise?

--
Spike

chrisonatrike replied to STATO | 5620 posts | 12 hours ago
0 likes

They could be bigger no doubt - and likely they wouldn't be helpful if you've got a bike adapted for mobility assistance. Will they fit a bike with a child seat? I'd suggest that would be a minimum.

Because the UK is still in "early days" of cycling there's much less uniformity of sizes. Compare this with a place where cycling is a mainstream transport option [1] (link is external) [2] (link is external). I guess there's a bit of churn in bike form factors at the moment also. There's definitely been some "grade inflation" in terms of MTB handlebar widths and wheel / tyre sizes over - say - the last decade.

If they were made to accommodate MTB sizes they'd be nice and roomy for everyone else - not sure this is a tradeoff we'll see though (e.g. you might then only get 4 bikes per hanger with similar footprint).

On 22/05/2023 05:49 am, swldx...@gmail.com wrote:
> STATO | 591 posts | 9 hours ago
> 1 like
>
> Id love to see a pic of that bike in one of the hangers*, becasue I know from personal experience it wont* fit!
>
> Everyone wets themselves over these hangers* but fact is they dont* fit most Large or XL mtbs since most are now 29ers and hence are longer. My XL commute bike with mudguards only barely fits in the lower 3 of the 6 spaces in each hanger*, in the high spaces the bars hit the lid before it shuts.

* Spelling: 1/10.

This will not do.

Nothing stopping you continuing to park your bike anywhere. This is about additional parking provision. Ideally taking back some space from motor vehicle parking.

In principle I don't see why people shouldn't pay a small amount for this. It's "public" in one sense but actually it's "for" the immediate locality. If I don't live near one it's no use to me. However for e.g. town centre / station parking free or nearly free is a very good idea - you really want people to cycle to these places rather than driving.

The Netherlands shows there can indeed be "problems of success" with this. Cycling is so popular that forests of parked bikes can be an issue for access. Sensibly they've chosen "more carrot than stick" and provided excellent facilities (link is external) to lure people into parking in a more scaleable way.

For better or worse we tend to value things depending on what we pay. So "free" can sometimes be too cheap. However I'd certainly agree there are good arguments for putting more money into cycling provision (e.g. it actually brings you overall economic benefit (link is external)).